Rail Operations Group - 769s & 319s to be used on freight between West Mids and Central Belt

[waverley47]

Caley Sleeper can't use plt 7 as it's miles too short!!! Can use 1,2, 9,10 and 11 at Central.

Ah, i thought the long one was seven but looking at the map you are indeed right.

The sleeper can't actually be timetabled into 10 or 11 during normal working however, issues around length and double parking of the sleeper and the loco that picks it up.

 

[doningtonphil]

Do DHL Domestic parcels all still go by road through their East Midlands Airport hub? If so, what price a midnight departure from East Midlands Gateway Railfreight terminal. The Linehaul trucks deliver the parcels from the depots into the EMA Hub. However many trucks bring the scottish freight down to the Railfreight terminal. The train departs eventually joining the ECML at Crewe to a Scottish Central belt locations, where trucks collect to deliver in to their Edinburgh, Edinburgh, Aberdeen etc depots.

Likewise TNT from any one of their West Midlands hubs (Atherstone, Kingsbury, Lount) to a railfreight terminal on to a freight terminal in the central belt.

If you drive along the M6 at a certain time of night, the vast majority of trucks are next day parcel carriers. How many vehicles could these serrvices take off the road?

 

[HSTEd]

If we had 200+mph TGV La Poste esque units, and high speed lines for them to run on, this would likely be a more attractive proposition.
Simply because the journey time would be so short.

I'm not entirely sold that the journey time will be attractive including the extra handling involved.

What speed will a 12-car 319 manage up Shap?

 

[Clip]

If we had 200+mph TGV La Poste esque units, and high speed lines for them to run on, this would likely be a more attractive proposition.
Simply because the journey time would be so short.

I'm not entirely sold that the journey time will be attractive including the extra handling involved.

What speed will a 12-car 319 manage up Shap?

Are the 319s not quick on acceleration and fast anyway? Would they have to regear them for Shap?

Overnight trips will be the same as lorries as will the unloading surely?

 

[HSTEd]

Are the 319s not quick on acceleration and fast anyway? Would they have to regear them for Shap?

Overnight trips will be the same as lorries as will the unloading surely?

They only have four powered axles per unit and by modern standards are relatively low power.

 

[Domh245]

The 319s are functionally the same as a 325 under the skin, so that should give an idea of the sort of paths and times across shap they can manage

 

[Wyrleybart]

The 319s are functionally the same as a 325 under the skin, so that should give an idea of the sort of paths and times across shap they can manage

Exactly, and what kind of timings do the 325s have to run to. don't see a great problem in the immediate term

 

[david1212]

Are the 319s not quick on acceleration and fast anyway? Would they have to regear them for Shap?

Overnight trips will be the same as lorries as will the unloading surely?

They only have four powered axles per unit and by modern standards are relatively low power.

The real problems will be when the motors on one bogie are isolated or worse still if the juice is off so both ~1000hp on diesel and just four powered axles without the weight on them of a class 20.

 

[HSTEd]

The real problems will be when the motors on one bogie are isolated or worse still if the juice is off so both ~1000hp on diesel and just four powered axles without the weight on them of a class 20.

Well if the juice is off Shap is hardly likely to be particularly busy, so at that point it only matters if they can make the climb at all.
And worst comes to worst you could marshal the 769 in the middle, propel the front unit up the slope, detach it, set back and then haul the rear unit up the slope.

 

[zwk500]

Exactly, and what kind of timings do the 325s have to run to. don't see a great problem in the immediate term

325s are timed for 23 minutes Oxenholme-Penrith, for comparison Pendos are timed for 21 minutes.

Well if the juice is off Shap is hardly likely to be particularly busy, so at that point it only matters if they can make the climb at all.
And worst comes to worst you could marshal the 769 in the middle, propel the front unit up the slope, detach it, set back and then haul the rear unit up the slope.

You won't be doing any detaching and setting back, it'll take far too long and the nearest place suitable to stable the 1st unit is Penrith. If the train didn't make it up the hill on diesel alone I expect Kingmoor would be called to provide assistance, or the train would be diverted to a less taxing route.

 

[The Planner]

Depends on what equivalent a 769 on diesel would be, Oxenholme to Tebay is 11½ for a 150, 11 for a 158, 75mph light loco 12.

 

[zwk500]

Depends on what equivalent a 769 on diesel would be, Oxenholme to Tebay is 11½ for a 150, 11 for a 158, 75mph light loco 12.

For context, on the North Downs from Reigate to Gomshall, which is not a great comparison, a 769 is 11.5', a Light loco is 10', and a 158 is 10'.

 

[waverley47]

15% slower than a 158, or equivalent to a 150 at 75 wouldn't surprise me, the 319s were never really fast off the block and the speed of the diesel equivalents remains to be seen. Annoyingly we don't have a comparison to go off yet: the Welsh valleys are equally steep but line speeds are far slower.

Pathing looks to be interesting for this, I forsee many instances of pendolinos being held up on the northern banks as these units struggle up and over the hills. The 319s were never great in wet conditions either....

 

[Speed43125]

15% slower than a 158, or equivalent to a 150 at 75 wouldn't surprise me, the 319s were never really fast off the block and the speed of the diesel equivalents remains to be seen. Annoyingly we don't have a comparison to go off yet: the Welsh valleys are equally steep but line speeds are far slower.

Pathing looks to be interesting for this, I forsee many instances of pendolinos being held up on the northern banks as these units struggle up and over the hills. The 319s were never great in wet conditions either....

I don't understand these comments, the 325s have been plodding up and down the ECML and WCML for decades now, a few kilos worth of diesel engines extra isn't exactly going to grind them to a halt.

 

[waverley47]

I don't understand these comments, the 325s have been plodding up and down the ECML and WCML for decades now, a few kilos worth of diesel engines extra isn't exactly going to grind them to a halt.

The 319s (and by extension the 325s as everything below the solebar is the same) have four powered axles to move four coaches. They have limited wheelslip protection. Their electronics are old, and while they were underpowered when they were introduced, now they are positively sluggish. It wasn't unusual, before they were overhauled, to see the 325s needing to be pulled by a suitable electric loco. Furthermore, they just seemed to always work a bit better than their passenger cousins, with less wheelslip ect.

Obviously they are fundamentally the same unit, but the 319s have been hammered pretty hard over the last few decades. I have my doubts (unsubstantiated though they may be) regarding the suitability of these units for long distance, sustained 100mph running. Time will tell, and it may turn out fine, but I have a suspicion we may be seeing more problems than we expect.

 

[alangla]

Depends on what equivalent a 769 on diesel would be, Oxenholme to Tebay is 11½ for a 150, 11 for a 158, 75mph light loco 12.

Surely a more interesting test would be if a 769 could drag a 319 over the S&C or G&SW without cooking itself? That seems a reasonable scenario & will no doubt happen unplanned at some point in the first few months of service

 

[zwk500]

Surely a more interesting test would be if a 769 could drag a 319 over the S&C or G&SW without cooking itself? That seems a reasonable scenario & will no doubt happen unplanned at some point in the first few months of service

Unless ROG/Orion are planning regular moves over either, I can't see it being worth keeping driver knowledge current. If they can't get through it'll either be find somewhere to hide or send a loco with a coupling adaptor.

 

[xotGD]

The real problems will be when the motors on one bogie are isolated or worse still if the juice is off so both ~1000hp on diesel and just four powered axles without the weight on them of a class 20.

They'll definitely do better when the juice is off than a 325.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Unless ROG/Orion are planning regular moves over either, I can't see it being worth keeping driver knowledge current. If they can't get through it'll either be find somewhere to hide or send a loco with a coupling adaptor.

If they are after the next day delivery market and want to be taken seriously finding somewhere to park them until everything is back to normal won’t be an option. Failures on the northern section of the WCML often take 5+ hours to clear and OHLE problems are regularly not fixed until the next morning.

 

[big all]

To try and put some likely performance I am going to refer back to good old thumpers:

we can say a 6 car [260t]would have a similar power output to a 4 car 769 on diesel- the motor bogie on a thumper is at the motor coach light end so would give say 11/12 tonnes axle load on the motor bogies assuming a 40/60 split off the around 58 tonne motor coach

A thumper leaving Dorking and going up the bank[1/96] would get to say 42-46mph at welcome bridge even a unit on half power will be around 28-30mph?

Now I accept a 769 is higher geared so may perform a bit slower but as the electrics will be off similar level to a 6car 260t thumper 'a thumper on half power would be similar power to a 769 dragging 2 dead as a 12 car I would think?

I will let someone else work out power to weight off a 769 dragging 4 or8 over a thumper on full or half power?

In summary 769+319 off the juice will work well with limited speed over long distances where as a 769 and 2 319s will fully work sub 20mph [the last mile] or in emergency with ohl power failure to clear the line or destination dependent on circumstances

 

[david1212]

If they are after the next day delivery market and want to be taken seriously finding somewhere to park them until everything is back to normal won’t be an option. Failures on the northern section of the WCML often take 5+ hours to clear and OHLE problems are regularly not fixed until the next morning.

That is my train of thought ( pun intended ). Occasional delays from using the S&C and/or G&SW will be tolerated so long as overall an earlier arrival than road transport and no worse reliability.

Surely a more interesting test would be if a 769 could drag a 319 over the S&C or G&SW without cooking itself? That seems a reasonable scenario & will no doubt happen unplanned at some point in the first few months of service

With dry rail the engines will be the limiting factor but in damp / rain / ice, non of which are rare to the S&C or G&SW, it could be traction, or rather lack of. ROG might need thunderbirds ready to go at Preston, Carlisle and somewhere around Glasgow.

 

[ExRes]

One big bonus for the 325 over the 319 of course is that it was designed to be loco hauled when required, a failure can be rescued by any loco which isn't the case for the 319/769

 

[Wyrleybart]

To try and put some likely performance I am going to refer back to good old thumpers:

we can say a 6 car [260t]would have a similar power output to a 4 car 769 on diesel- the motor bogie on a thumper is at the motor coach light end so would give say 11/12 tonnes axle load on the motor bogies assuming a 40/60 split off the around 58 tonne motor coach

A thumper leaving Dorking and going up the bank[1/96] would get to say 42-46mph at welcome bridge even a unit on half power will be around 28-30mph?

Now I accept a 769 is higher geared so may perform a bit slower but as the electrics will be off similar level to a 6car 260t thumper 'a thumper on half power would be similar power to a 769 dragging 2 dead as a 12 car I would think?

I will let someone else work out power to weight off a 769 dragging 4 or8 over a thumper on full or half power?

In summary 769+319 off the juice will work well with limited speed over long distances where as a 769 and 2 319s will fully work sub 20mph [the last mile] or in emergency with ohl power failure to clear the line or destination dependent on circumstances

With respect though you surely wouldn't contemplate that, just like (I am guessing) you wouldn't send a fully loaded northbound class 4 from Carnforth with an 88 on diesel. It might well make Shap but not at all quickly. I am guessing Network Rail control would be the arbiter of that kind of thing.

Another thought I have is whether you are allowed to run a multiple unit formation with substantially less powered axles than intended. In the case of a 769+319 combo on diesel you would have 4 out of 32 axles powered, and with less ooomph than under 25kV. It probably depends on the ruling Network Rail will have on running Bimode traction with reduced output on diesel.

 

[big all]

i am just trying to put forward what may happen in my experience as a driver albeit pre 94 trained on both 319 and thumpers??
You wouldn't normally send an underpowered [769 hauling a 319 dead] slow train round a hilly route but a trade-off may work but needs sorting
you would never leave a siding or depot with a 50% powered train unless its planned diagram ??
cant talk about 88s as i know nothing about them??
we worked many a route with a 73 with loads not originally envisage including vans from Redhill to Didcot on the western with up to 8 vans normally on a day to day basis or the other vans we had up to Willesden south-west sidings on diesel up the 1/50 or whatever it is at north pole with about 8 vans ??

I am not for one second suggesting what will happen in this modern world but with such negativity further down thread just suggesting a baseline where much greater things may be possible than people imagine but at more sedate pace off life ??

 

[EnlargedTrain2]

I’ve heard Daventry is to be used in some form, this being the “west midlands” terminal is unlikely however. I’d personally expect birch coppice or perhaps prologis park.