Rail Operations Group - 769s & 319s to be used on freight between West Mids and Central Belt

[zwk500]

The picture https://www.keymodernrailways.com/article/new-financing-rog in this Modern Railways article shows a Royal Mail sign on the cab so it could well be that Royal Mail are one of their customer.

It's entirely possible. Bi-Mode would make the economics of non-electrified operation (vs 67-hauled) a different prospect.

 

[kylemore]

I would have thought platform unloading would be essential so why not Glasgow central from say 3am to 5.30am?

 

[Carntyne]

I would have thought platform unloading would be essential so why not Glasgow central from say 3am to 5.30am?

Probably not available at those times, or not the most convenient place to unload. Likely a combination of both.

 

[zwk500]

I would have thought platform unloading would be essential so why not Glasgow central from say 3am to 5.30am?

Platform unloading in a city-centre station would only be essential if the distribution plan is to despatch directly from the station. If the plan is instead to use a distribution hub on the edge of a city, to access the motorway network, and because land for a storage/transhipment facility is cheaper, it's not a massive cost to build a new freight loading platform alongside a siding at Mossend. Or, as has been suggested, use the Shieldmuir Royal Mail facility.

Glasgow central would probably be available overnight other than on Saturday into sunday, but you might find arrival and departure times restricted if the throat is being blocked overnight (e.g. arrive before the block, stable in the platform then depart once the block comes off). There's also the logistics of moving the parcels around the station, and storing/sorting the parcels for onward despatch (I doubt many will be 'click and collect' from the ticket office).

 

[waverley47]

Glasgow Central no longer has the facilities for vehicles to enter the station area, and the nearest road with space to do that (Gordon Street Infront of the station) will eventually be made pedestrian only. It's also a good 100m from some of the higher numbered platforms.

Additionally, about half of the Central Station throat closes overnight for maintenance on weekend nights (checking the status of the great many double slips). The station is however in use overnight most week nights from 3am to 6am with the sleeper and avanti, and so is theoretically open for use during this time.

The problem comes with late arrivals and departures. If it's scheduled to use Central overnight, but arrives late, there isn't any flexibility. The peak hour there ramps up quite quickly, with absolutely no free platforms during the day.

Overall I'd say probably beneficial from a financial case point of view, but NR aren't going to want an as yet untested project in the middle of the busiest station in Scotland overnight unless these problems can be overcome. I'd argue Elderslie, Mossend or Grangemouth still remain the most likely.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Glasgow Central would be unsuitable as previous people have said, the platforms aren't accessible by road anymore as the gateline and Platforms 12 and 13 are built on the old site of it. The ramp is there but you'd have to move them through the gateline.

Glasgow Central is also used to stable several of Scotrail's multiple units overnight.

 

[theironroad]

Glasgow Central no longer has the facilities for vehicles to enter the station area, and the nearest road with space to do that (Gordon Street Infront of the station) will eventually be made pedestrian only. It's also a good 100m from some of the higher numbered platforms.

Additionally, about half of the Central Station throat closes overnight for maintenance on weekend nights (checking the status of the great many double slips). The station is however in use overnight most week nights from 3am to 5am with the sleeper, and so is theoretically open for use during this time.

The problem comes with late arrivals and departures. If it's scheduled to use Central overnight, but arrives late, there isn't any flexibility. The peak hour there ramps up quite quickly, with absolutely no free platforms during the day.

Overall I'd say probably beneficial from a financial case point of view, but NR aren't going to want an as yet untested project in the middle of the busiest station in Scotland overnight unless these problems can be overcome. I'd argue Elderslie, Mossend or Grangemouth still remain the most likely.

Bit confused as how sleeper affects the station between 0300-0500.

It leaves glc southbound about 2340 and arrives from south about 0730.

Apart from the light loco movement after 2340, what else is there?

 

[kylemore]

Thanks for all replies regarding Glasgow Central - yes it's probably not practical. However from looking at the photos of the units it is clear that platform level unloading is a given, and with the start of the service weeks away it would appear logical to assume that they intend to use an existing facility able to accommodate this requirement.

 

[waverley47]

The lack of platform space

Bit confused as how sleeper affects the station between 0300-0500.

It leaves glc southbound about 2340 and arrives from south about 0730.

Apart from the light loco movement after 2340, what else is there?

So the sleeper can use three platforms, the rest aren't long enough. These are 1, 2 and 7, so the sleeper needs to occupy one of these overnight for the sleeper to arrive into (even though there aren't any trains in the platform, it is still reserved as the sleeper platform during this time)

I did make a mistake, in that there are also two Avanti departures south before 6am, using two of these platforms (usually 1 and 2) so these are occupied as well.

 

[Highlandspring]

Thanks for all replies regarding Glasgow Central - yes it's probably not practical. However from looking at the photos of the units it is clear that platform level unloading is a given, and with the start of the service weeks away it would appear logical to assume that they intend to use an existing facility able to accommodate this requirement.

There’s a platform road at Mossend on the Down side which I’m sure is wired, perhaps they’ll use that? I haven’t heard a thing about this service yet other than what I’ve read here but if it’s starting within a few weeks I’d expect to get some solid information very soon.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I give it three months

 

[ExRes]

I give it three months

You give what three months?

 

[InOban]

I suspect that ROG have a contract with Royal Mail and/or other existing parcel carriers to address the rising demand from online shopping. It won't be a new start-up business.

 

[kylemore]

I suspect that ROG have a contract with Royal Mail and/or other existing parcel carriers to address the rising demand from online shopping. It won't be a new start-up business.

Very probably. There is little mention of how the parcels/consignments will be gathered and distributed at either end. It would be a major operation to set up such facilities involving recruiting drivers, purchasing vans, obtaining premises and marketing, therefore it is logical to assume that the rail operation is to dovetail with existing such arrangements in co-operation with another entity such as Royal Mail or Hermes for example.

 

[HamBuoy]

This article from September 2020 contains a map of ROG/Orion's proposed network with Glasgow Central, Edinburgh Waverley and Grangemouth clearly shown in Scotland.
https://www.railengineer.co.uk/re-engineering-rail-freight/ (also on https://orion.railopsgroup.co.uk/)
My understanding is that they are looking zero emission distribution onwards from the city centre stations.

 

[anthony263]

They even got a swansea to London route. That could be done for royal mail or amazon

 

[kylemore]

This article from September 2020 contains a map of ROG/Orion's proposed network with Glasgow Central, Edinburgh Waverley and Grangemouth clearly shown in Scotland.
https://www.railengineer.co.uk/re-engineering-rail-freight/ (also on https://orion.railopsgroup.co.uk/)
My understanding is that they are looking zero emission distribution onwards from the city centre stations.

Thanks for this - well it seems to be clear enough that they intend to use city centre passenger stations - and why not - they were built with this kind of traffic in mind.

True due to the laziness of the railway from the 1970s onward these traffics were thrown away and therefore the stations may need a bit of tweaking, however one hopes that the usual UK railway "can't do" attitude does not prevail.

 

[zwk500]

Thanks for this - well it seems to be clear enough that they intend to use city centre passenger stations - and why not - they were built with this kind of traffic in mind.

True due to the laziness of the railway from the 1970s onward these traffics were thrown away and therefore the stations may need a bit of tweaking, however one hopes that the usual UK railway "can't do" attitude does not prevail.

Many of the stations were also built with loco-hauled services and horse drawn carriages in mind

It's good that they are looking at city-centre based distribution, but any argument about what something was is not useful. The focus should be on how city-centre distribution will allow smaller, greener vehicles and the benefits for congestion and the environment. Flexibility is also a useful aspect of this:city centre pickup potentially enables a just-in-time operation as well

 

[kylemore]

Many of the stations were also built with loco-hauled services and horse drawn carriages in mind

It's good that they are looking at city-centre based distribution, but any argument about what something was is not useful. The focus should be on how city-centre distribution will allow smaller, greener vehicles and the benefits for congestion and the environment. Flexibility is also a useful aspect of this:city centre pickup potentially enables a just-in-time operation as well

"Horse drawn" vehicles would certainly fit the eco friendly requirement, mind you I don't know about the "zero emissions" though.

 

[edwin_m]

I can see how distribution by miniature electric vehicle or cycle courier might work for the type of operation that feeds into a city centre from a goods concentration depot in the suburbs. But I don't think there's enough traffic between central England and within range of Glasgow city centre to fill a train. As a matter of security major stations no longer have access for full-size road vehicles, and there's also the problem of storing the goods in the station until the train arrives or until the premises it is destined for are open for business in the morning. So I think they'll be looking for suburban depots that are within EV-range of most of a conurbation.

 

[221129]

As a matter of security major stations no longer have access for full-size road vehicles, and there's also the problem of storing the goods in the station until the train arrives or until the premises it is destined for are open for business in the morning.

I can think of a few major stations that have road vehicle access and space to store parcels.

 

[edwin_m]

I can think of a few major stations that have road vehicle access and space to store parcels.

A few would have vehicle space just outside but probably not close enough to transfer vehicle to vehicle. But I think all the traditional "cab roads" on the platforms themselves have gone - if you are aware of any remaining I'd be interested to hear.

 

[221129]

A few would have vehicle space just outside but probably not close enough to transfer vehicle to vehicle. But I think all the traditional "cab roads" on the platforms themselves have gone - if you are aware of any remaining I'd be interested to hear.

You could easily do close to vehicle to vehicle transfer at Edinburgh Waverley. Where there has also been a lot of work in the stores areas (quite possibly unrelated)

I also expect that the parcels will the transported by roll cage so vehicle access won't need to be onto the platform.

 

[zwk500]

I can see how distribution by miniature electric vehicle or cycle courier might work for the type of operation that feeds into a city centre from a goods concentration depot in the suburbs. But I don't think there's enough traffic between central England and within range of Glasgow city centre to fill a train. As a matter of security major stations no longer have access for full-size road vehicles, and there's also the problem of storing the goods in the station until the train arrives or until the premises it is destined for are open for business in the morning. So I think they'll be looking for suburban depots that are within EV-range of most of a conurbation.

Their website is fairly clear that they're going for city-centre locations. They also make mention of stops en-route, so perhaps a red-star-esque business pattern is what they have in mind? Most large stations have a certain amount of 'backstage' room available that could be relatively easily made secure storage for parcels. Probably not a train load, but as I mentioned I don't think the idea is for a whole train to unload at any one station, that's what the terminals at Daventry, Grangemouth, and Hams Hall will be for.

 

[DarloRich]

I would have thought platform unloading would be essential so why not Glasgow central from say 3am to 5.30am?

The question is surely: How do you get your vehicles into the station to allow for onward distribution? I guess you don't need to get the vehicle into the station but getting them nearby and able to load will be tricky. How many people do you need to move the goods? They must have thought this through.

Personally i would unload at a distribution centre close to the city and truck everything in from there but that is just me.

 

[zwk500]

The question is surely: How do you get your vehicles into the station to allow for onward distribution? I guess you don't need to get the vehicle into the station but getting them nearby and able to load will be tricky. How many people do you need to move the goods? They must have thought this through.

Personally i would unload at a distribution centre close to the city and truck everything in from there but that is just me.

https://orion.railopsgroup.co.uk/#how suggests both approaches will be used. I'm not sure what autonomous vehicles they're planning to use, or at what stage each part of the plan comes in, but it does seem fairly clear that City centre loading is part of their service

 

[221129]

The question is surely: How do you get your vehicles into the station to allow for onward distribution?

Presumably the same way that station retailers get their goods in?

 

[Bald Rick]

Assuming this is for the home delivery parcels market (I’m not sure it is, but...) the critical element of this is where the parcels are sorted into their final delivery rounds.

If the parcels are loaded at origin in cages sorted to final rounds, it will simply be a case of off train and into van. That implies a decent size holding area in the station for the cages, and a steady procession of transit sized vans to pick them up.

Alternatively, if the parcels are being bulk hauled after the first sort at origin (eg ‘Central Belt’), the cages will be all put in larger vans, taken to the local distribution centre for final sort and distribution as normal. Amazon and Hermes both have local distribution hubs at Mossend.

 

[awsnews]

The question is surely: How do you get your vehicles into the station to allow for onward distribution? I guess you don't need to get the vehicle into the station but getting them nearby and able to load will be tricky. How many people do you need to move the goods? They must have thought this through.

Personally i would unload at a distribution centre close to the city and truck everything in from there but that is just me.

Certainly for Glasgow Central whilst there is no longer direct access to the platforms for vehicles there is still access to the area underneath, and I think there is a goods lift between the two areas. There is a considerable amount of infrastructure under the station to support such activities.

 

[800 Driver]

I feel sorry for the drivers - zero room in those cabs. With such long distances I hope ROG are setting aside some money for the compensation they'll have to pay for back pain. Rubbish units should be scrapped.