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Rail replacement buses

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Daniel740

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Why are these services so poorly thought out? To give an example there’s a bus service this weekend between Richmond and Acton Central, but it arrives just a few minutes after the Overground service has left, leaving a nearly 30 minute gap, not to mention the fact that it stops nowhere near Acton Central station...
 
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D6975

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Bad connections - Not unusual I'm afraid. Coming back from Brum a few years ago, the RRB from New St to Gloucester arrived in Gloucester 5 mins after the train to Bristol had departed and the next one was in an hour.
 

RJ

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Why are these services so poorly thought out? To give an example there’s a bus service this weekend between Richmond and Acton Central, but it arrives just a few minutes after the Overground service has left, leaving a nearly 30 minute gap, not to mention the fact that it stops nowhere near Acton Central station...

You're using a high frequency bus service that connects with a low frequency rail service. Not all trips are going to provide a perfect connection.

The bus stop is a 5 minute walk from the station according to Google Maps.

East Churchfield Road is not particularly well suited to double deck buses and how do you get buses out of Churchfield Road without causing unnecessary delays for all concerned?
 
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SargeNpton

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Probably the case that the buses are there to replace both Underground and Overground services; with the Underground operators tasked with arranging the buses.
 

Alfie1014

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There’s a fantastic example of the this weekend. A friend suggested a meet up in Bury St Edmunds this Saturday which is about 45 miles from my home (about 1 hour by road A133, A12, A14). But I’d prefer to go by rail but knew that there is engineering work this weekend. The rail journey planners give a journey time of 2hr 48mins for all the hourly services with a bus into Colchester, another bus to Witham!, then another bus to Ipswich (fast not stopping at Colchester), then train to Bury. When I looked into the detail on RTTs there is in fact an hourly train service from Manningtree to Ipswich (which is connected by bus from Colchester), but this hourly train arrives in plat 3 at Ipswich at xx:20, exactly the same time as the xx:20 to Cambridge departs from across the same island platform 4!! Whilst I acknowledge that the market off the Clacton or Harwich and Manningtree towards Bury and Cambridge is not huge the deliberate timetabling of the few trains running not to connect is disappointing to say the least. In this case the car will be the mode of choice on this occasion.
 

FuzzyDuck

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A few years ago the line between Woking and Farnborough was closed for the weekend. Coming back from London terminated at Woking and was bussed to Farnborough...only to discover there were no more trains for 6 hours or so! There was a busload of very unhappy passengers that night. Local taxi drivers probably made a killing.
 

DelW

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Even when the connections do work, journey planners don't always show them.

I first met this a few years ago, planning a Sunday trip from Surrey to mid Wales, which involved an RRB from Blackwater (on the North Downs line) to Reading. The NR journey planner told me I couldn't do it, as the first train from my local station wouldn't let me get to Swansea in time for the last Heart of Wales line train.

When I investigated further, I found that the nominal connection time from train to bus at Blackwater was 7 minutes, no problem as it's only a short walk. But because that's less than the journey planner's minimum, it instead showed a connection onto the next bus, an hour and seven minutes later.

As it turned out, there was no risk of the connection not working, to their credit GWR had staff at Blackwater directing passengers and making sure everyone was on board before the buses left. But it seems the minimum connection time often isn't (or can't be?) over-ridden, as I've encountered the same issue on occasions since.
 

30907

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When I looked into the detail on RTTs there is in fact an hourly train service from Manningtree to Ipswich (which is connected by bus from Colchester), but this hourly train arrives in plat 3 at Ipswich at xx:20, exactly the same time as the xx:20 to Cambridge departs from across the same island platform 4!! Whilst I acknowledge that the market off the Clacton or Harwich and Manningtree towards Bury and Cambridge is not huge the deliberate timetabling of the few trains running not to connect is disappointing to say the least. In this case the car will be the mode of choice on this occasion.
In this case, the Cambridge service has no margin for retiming as it needs to return as booked to keep clear of following trains up to Coldham Lane Jn.
The times at Manningtree are fixed by the buses from Witham which in turn depend on the times ex Liverpool Street... :(
 

700007

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The buses stop on Uxbridge Road because there's nowhere closer to the station that is safe / cleared by TfL to use. Even if there was, it doesn't solve the issue of buses needing somewhere to turn around. They currently have to terminate on Uxbridge Road and run out of service eastwards to Acton Vale by Bromyard Avenue to take their breaks before returning to pick up on Uxbridge Road by the railway bridge.
 

Daniel740

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You're using a high frequency bus service that connects with a low frequency rail service. Not all trips are going to provide a perfect connection.

The bus stop is a 5 minute walk from the station according to Google Maps.

East Churchfield Road is not particularly well suited to double deck buses and how do you get buses out of Churchfield Road without causing unnecessary delays for all concerned?
The buses stop on Uxbridge Road because there's nowhere closer to the station that is safe / cleared by TfL to use. Even if there was, it doesn't solve the issue of buses needing somewhere to turn around. They currently have to terminate on Uxbridge Road and run out of service eastwards to Acton Vale by Bromyard Avenue to take their breaks before returning to pick up on Uxbridge Road by the railway bridge.
The stops may seem relatively close by but in reality it’s a good 5 minutes walk away through an area that frankly is rather sketchy.
 

Dr Hoo

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The stops may seem relatively close by but in reality it’s a good 5 minutes walk away through an area that frankly is rather sketchy.
It is an unavoidable fact that not every station has an ideal 'bus station' by the entrance. 'Regular' locations are generally agreed and signed in my experience.

(This is not the same as 'poorly thought out'.)
 

Boo_

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Often Road Transport does not connect with trains as they will not Guarantee. As you can`t hold a train but Road Transport sometimes connects with trains
But TOC will tell the Road Transport Supplier if want that to happen or not.

Controllers / Coordinators will hold buses/coaches sometimes mostly for last service.

I would not hold service if High-frequency or train is other Train operator. But I must admit I will hold a commuting service if late if I know The commuters and you tend to get to know them on long blocks.

At Preston few years ago we would hold the Blackpool South coach for the Blackburn train but unknown to passengers northern was planning on breaking that service anyway but that was poor time to do it with rail replacement on. we did that off our own back
 

185

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Northern coming in for serious criticism after...

i) using a 11 seater transit minibus to replace the last train of the night this week. Social distancing - around max 1.6 passengers.
ii) giving it a journey time of 2 hours 40 minutes as opposed to 52 minutes. They refused to run two buses, a second one doing the main stops would have took an hour.

It's as if they deliberately want to make passengers walk away from it. They couldn't even hire an actual bus.
 

30907

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Northern coming in for serious criticism after...

i) using a 11 seater transit minibus to replace the last train of the night this week. Social distancing - around max 1.6 passengers.
ii) giving it a journey time of 2 hours 40 minutes as opposed to 52 minutes. They refused to run two buses, a second one doing the main stops would have took an hour.

It's as if they deliberately want to make passengers walk away from it. They couldn't even hire an actual bus.
Were there 1.6 or 6 passengers? :)

Which route?
 

Aictos

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One thing that Govia Thameslink were meant to do as part of their management contract commitments was to introduce a live tracking facility for their rail replacement buses.

Now I don't know if this was simply a countdown to the next expected bus or actual live tracking as used by various bus companies such as National Express West Midlands or TfL Buses but I would have liked to have seen this for rail replacement buses.
 

steamybrian

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As someone who used to work for BR (Southern Region) planning engineering works and substitute buses I had several years experience.

I agree that many stations were inaccessible for substitute buses (there are a few that have no road access!) accordingly the nearest convenient stop was identified. In some cases this was still a long way so connecting minibuses or taxis are provided.

One of my first assignments was serving Hever, and Cowden which are both located in narrow country lanes but others similar around my area include Crowhurst, Glynde, Doleham, Winchelsea.

Other considerations are the presence of low bridges so I was able to advise the bus company that single deck buses are required. With average number of passengers it was estimated whether one or several buses are required in convoy.

We also arranged staff at each interchange station to ensure trains connected with buses so for example if a train arrived 5 minutes late then he/she would hold the bus to connect.

Finally whether direct roads are available for example the railway between Tonbridge and Ashford takes a straight direct route but the road is a twisting narrow country lane through the villages of Kent.

As for connections it is impossible for everything to connect but I take your point that trains/buses should be held to avoid giving passengers a long wait.

It is many years since I retired so I do not know what today's policy is for each TOC, but customer relations should prevail.

Whilst readers have above given their bad experiences, how many have found that buses do connect?
 
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Megafuss

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One thing that Govia Thameslink were meant to do as part of their management contract commitments was to introduce a live tracking facility for their rail replacement buses.

Now I don't know if this was simply a countdown to the next expected bus or actual live tracking as used by various bus companies such as National Express West Midlands or TfL Buses but I would have liked to have seen this for rail replacement buses.

One of the biggest outsources of RRB, First Travel Solutions, has an app which can be downloaded by contracted drivers so vehicle movements can be traced at control for operational reasons. I doubt many drivers actually do it though

It's technically possible for pre planned rail replacements to be tracked. It's a lot of hassle to be fair and a barrier would be the diaspora of the various operators used for RRB work as some may not have 4g enabled ticket machines

Plus I am not aware of a way that bus operators real time feeds can be integrated in to National Rail official feeds. They obviously can for third party apps like Google, but you can't track proper Rail bus links on the NRE app despite them being displayed on departure boards.
 

185

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Were there 1.6 or 6 passengers? :)

Which route?

1.6 would be the maximum number of socially distanced passengers. Unsurprisingly - several walked away.

Crewe-Manchester, 2312. It's operated Monday to Thursday this week. Utterly unforgivable.
 

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Robertj21a

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1.6 would be the maximum number of socially distanced passengers. Unsurprisingly - several walked away.

Crewe-Manchester, 2312. It's operated Monday to Thursday this week. Utterly unforgivable.
The TOC needs to resolve that asap.
 

C J Snarzell

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The TOC needs to resolve that asap.

Is this a Northern rail replacement service or is it for one of the other TOCs?

Northern are currently using Arriva Road Transport Services (ARTS) for rail replacement, even though Northern came out of the Arriva franchise at the end of February.

ARTS have recently lost their contract with Transport for Wales - the new rail replacement contract has been awarded to Abellio.

CJ
 

185

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Just for contrast.. exact same service, 2312 - here's tonight with Northern running a train, terrible photo, but approximately 20 on at Crewe, several on/off en route, and another 30 off at Piccadilly, thus disproving Northern Trains' director's claim that "few if any customers are travelling".

This is also the last train of the night, given they haven't ran their 0044 train since March.
 

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Robertj21a

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What issue needs resolving? Should they provide 2 minibuses, one for each passenger? Or one fullsized bus?
I would have thought that the TOC should ensure that a *suitable* vehicle is operated. They are likely to have far more statistics available to help them decide than we will have on this forum.
 

C J Snarzell

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I would have thought that the TOC should ensure that a *suitable* vehicle is operated. They are likely to have far more statistics available to help them decide than we will have on this forum.

The responsibility for the suitability of the vehicle(s) is mainly that of the rail replacement operator who have to ensure they comply with PSVAR.

I know there have been issues with Arriva Road Transport Services for a while which might suggest why they didn't get a new contract with TfW.

What I would suggest, is feeding any of these grievances back through Northern's customer services. Northern's current rail replacement contract ends early next year so any feedback from passengers might influence any future decisions about rail replacement services.

CJ
 

Dr Hoo

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The responsibility for the suitability of the vehicle(s) is mainly that of the rail replacement operator who have to ensure they comply with PSVAR...

CJ
I am really out of my comfort zone here but thought that PSVAR only applied to vehicles with a capacity of 22 or over.

Presumably by scheduling an 11-seat vehicle with an effective capacity of 1 the operator can sidestep the requirements?

Still seems absolutely bizarre.
 

CBlue

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I am really out of my comfort zone here but thought that PSVAR only applied to vehicles with a capacity of 22 or over.

Presumably by scheduling an 11-seat vehicle with an effective capacity of 1 the operator can sidestep the requirements?

Still seems absolutely bizarre.

Correct. PSVAR only applies to 22 seats or over.


However if the job was offered out and the only operator that accepted was the owner of that Transit....not a lot Northern can do at that moment in time!
 

Robertj21a

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The responsibility for the suitability of the vehicle(s) is mainly that of the rail replacement operator who have to ensure they comply with PSVAR.

I know there have been issues with Arriva Road Transport Services for a while which might suggest why they didn't get a new contract with TfW.

What I would suggest, is feeding any of these grievances back through Northern's customer services. Northern's current rail replacement contract ends early next year so any feedback from passengers might influence any future decisions about rail replacement services.

CJ
The bus operator should ensure their vehicle meets all legal requirements, and all the extra requirements of the TOC. The TOC is the only party that can specify what scale of capacity is required for their passengers. To agree to the use of such a small vehicle seems ridiculous, particularly when it wouldn't cater for even 1-2 more passengers.
 

221129

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The bus operator should ensure their vehicle meets all legal requirements, and all the extra requirements of the TOC. The TOC is the only party that can specify what scale of capacity is required for their passengers. To agree to the use of such a small vehicle seems ridiculous, particularly when it wouldn't cater for even 1-2 more passengers.
But if that is the only vehicle you can get...
 

185

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Correct. PSVAR only applies to 22 seats or over.


However if the job was offered out and the only operator that accepted was the owner of that Transit....not a lot Northern can do at that moment in time!
The job was hired in by Arriva Rail Support Services.

A regular operator on the route confirmed they were not asked, and would love the work. A part time employer of mine was also not asked either.

No-one should make excuses for either Northern Trains or Arriva Rail Support Services behaviour, this is a rather obvious one, and I'm more likely to believe this chap claiming they had to hire them as there's a volcano in Bradford. Ahem ;)
 

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