Rail replacement buses

[Robertj21a]

But if that is the only vehicle you can get...

Extremely unlikely. I very much doubt that was the case.

 

[C J Snarzell]

Absolutely right - PSVAR only applies to the larger vehicles not the smaller ones. I maybe should have expanded on my last post a bit better!!!!

Smaller vehicles do tend to get used for certain routes such as Barnsley to Huddersfield which is impossible in a large coach due to the narrow roads and access to stations.

PSVAR vehicles should generally be used where possible but this is not always the case due to availability of coach operators who are recruited by the rail replacement company.

Arriva have struggled for a while recruiting coach operators in certain parts of the Northern network.

CJ

 

[Cesarcollie]

Absolutely right - PSVAR only applies to the larger vehicles not the smaller ones. I maybe should have expanded on my last post a bit better!!!!

Smaller vehicles do tend to get used for certain routes such as Barnsley to Huddersfield which is impossible in a large coach due to the narrow roads and access to stations.

PSVAR vehicles should generally be used where possible but this is not always the case due to availability of coach operators who are recruited by the rail replacement company.

Arriva have struggled for a while recruiting coach operators in certain parts of the Northern network.

CJ

.......at the prices they want to pay.

 

[C J Snarzell]

.......at the prices they want to pay.

Not only that - some coach operators were not being paid for weeks, sometimes months for rail replacement work they've done! The inevitable is that those coach operators eventually refuse to work for Arriva which then means there is less availability when Northern make a request for rail replacement.

CJ

 

[Dr Hoo]

Meanwhile an operator with a vehicle that can only 'compliantly' carry one passenger/houshold besides the driver (presumably because of door and seat configuration) must have been finding takers hard to come by during Covid. They must have 'seen Northern coming' and rejoiced at the chance of some business.

 

[markymark2000]

One of the biggest outsources of RRB, First Travel Solutions, has an app which can be downloaded by contracted drivers so vehicle movements can be traced at control for operational reasons. I doubt many drivers actually do it though

It's technically possible for pre planned rail replacements to be tracked. It's a lot of hassle to be fair and a barrier would be the diaspora of the various operators used for RRB work as some may not have 4g enabled ticket machines

Plus I am not aware of a way that bus operators real time feeds can be integrated in to National Rail official feeds. They obviously can for third party apps like Google, but you can't track proper Rail bus links on the NRE app despite them being displayed on departure boards.

With Bus Open Data now mandating operators release their AVL data before the 7th Jan 2021 (or thereabouts). I know that some operators namely Midland Classic have 'Rail' built into the ticket machines and you can already see them tracking on bustimes.org. Using this logic and if other operators followed suit highlighting 'rail replacement' as a ticket machine trip, you could use the Bus Open Data AVL service to kind of build up some sort of tracking. Not all companies will make it work and it won't always be possible to do but I think it will now be easier than it was previously to make it work in areas which use buses for RRBs. Vehicles without ticket machines are useless trying to track as you end up in a situation with lots of buses in random places and no idea where they are going, you kind of need ticket machines with the trip data so you can compare it. If TOCs/RRB Outsource companies could work with bus operators to get ticket machines working on RRBs, it could enable passenger usage tracking so that then you can work out where passengers use the service which helps plan future RRB services (IE work out the size of vehicle needed in the future and also maybe skip out some stations if they require a large diversion but translate to no passengers and instead replace these stops with an agreement with local taxi firms incase a passenger does want to travel).

 

[Deafdoggie]

With Bus Open Data now mandating operators release their AVL data before the 7th Jan 2021 (or thereabouts). I know that some operators namely Midland Classic have 'Rail' built into the ticket machines and you can already see them tracking on bustimes.org. Using this logic and if other operators followed suit highlighting 'rail replacement' as a ticket machine trip, you could use the Bus Open Data AVL service to kind of build up some sort of tracking. Not all companies will make it work and it won't always be possible to do but I think it will now be easier than it was previously to make it work in areas which use buses for RRBs. Vehicles without ticket machines are useless trying to track as you end up in a situation with lots of buses in random places and no idea where they are going, you kind of need ticket machines with the trip data so you can compare it. If TOCs/RRB Outsource companies could work with bus operators to get ticket machines working on RRBs, it could enable passenger usage tracking so that then you can work out where passengers use the service which helps plan future RRB services (IE work out the size of vehicle needed in the future and also maybe skip out some stations if they require a large diversion but translate to no passengers and instead replace these stops with an agreement with local taxi firms incase a passenger does want to travel).

And this is going to be paid for by whom? RRB doesn’t pay well as it is, firms aren’t going to incur extra cost for it. A bus operator may do so if it helps them, and their ticket machines are compatible and programmed by them. Some companies use machines owned and programmed by the local authority for example (usually extra buttons etc are to see if it’s cost-effective, which RRB probably isn’t, so be careful what you wish for) but there’s not much incentive for them.

 

[markymark2000]

And this is going to be paid for by whom? RRB doesn’t pay well as it is, firms aren’t going to incur extra cost for it. A bus operator may do so if it helps them, and their ticket machines are compatible and programmed by them. Some companies use machines owned and programmed by the local authority for example (usually extra buttons etc are to see if it’s cost-effective, which RRB probably isn’t, so be careful what you wish for) but there’s not much incentive for them.

AVL is already shared via the government Bus Open Data system. I don't know about all firms but Midland Classic I know used to show up on bustimes.org showing 'rail' so they have it all logged in on their machines. It all depends on the system people use and how easy it is to change. Ticketer is quite easy to change and for RRBs known about in advance, it could maybe be sorted for these to be in the ticket machine.
I know some companies lease machines off LAs and there is lots to consider. All I am saying is that it is more of a possibility now than it was before for works which do use service buses. As has been said, First have tried this system with a driver app and so while there may be no incentive, it's all about what companies want to do. That said, depending on if RRB outsourcers did some detailed analysis of ticket machine data, they may find out running times so they would be more realistic which then has the potential to reduce the amount of time for the hire which could then reduce the costs.

As for buttons to log passengers, an incentive could be that if you can miss stops, you get people moving quicker on longer distances which improves overall satisfaction amongst passengers.


There are a lot of variables. The basis of what I was saying though was that some companies have built rail replacement into their ticket machines and with the government now forcing operators to release their AVL data, it may be easier now for live tracking to become a thing. Even if it is just on a very small scale on very select lines/occasions. It opens up possibilities.

 

[RT4038]

With Bus Open Data now mandating operators release their AVL data before the 7th Jan 2021 (or thereabouts). I know that some operators namely Midland Classic have 'Rail' built into the ticket machines and you can already see them tracking on bustimes.org. Using this logic and if other operators followed suit highlighting 'rail replacement' as a ticket machine trip, you could use the Bus Open Data AVL service to kind of build up some sort of tracking. Not all companies will make it work and it won't always be possible to do but I think it will now be easier than it was previously to make it work in areas which use buses for RRBs. Vehicles without ticket machines are useless trying to track as you end up in a situation with lots of buses in random places and no idea where they are going, you kind of need ticket machines with the trip data so you can compare it. If TOCs/RRB Outsource companies could work with bus operators to get ticket machines working on RRBs, it could enable passenger usage tracking so that then you can work out where passengers use the service which helps plan future RRB services (IE work out the size of vehicle needed in the future and also maybe skip out some stations if they require a large diversion but translate to no passengers and instead replace these stops with an agreement with local taxi firms incase a passenger does want to travel).

Lots of companies providing RRB do not have ticket machines fitted.

 

[markymark2000]

Lots of companies providing RRB do not have ticket machines fitted.

Granted. But a fair amount do.

 

[L401CJF]

With Bus Open Data now mandating operators release their AVL data before the 7th Jan 2021 (or thereabouts). I know that some operators namely Midland Classic have 'Rail' built into the ticket machines and you can already see them tracking on bustimes.org. Using this logic and if other operators followed suit highlighting 'rail replacement' as a ticket machine trip, you could use the Bus Open Data AVL service to kind of build up some sort of tracking. Not all companies will make it work and it won't always be possible to do but I think it will now be easier than it was previously to make it work in areas which use buses for RRBs. Vehicles without ticket machines are useless trying to track as you end up in a situation with lots of buses in random places and no idea where they are going, you kind of need ticket machines with the trip data so you can compare it. If TOCs/RRB Outsource companies could work with bus operators to get ticket machines working on RRBs, it could enable passenger usage tracking so that then you can work out where passengers use the service which helps plan future RRB services (IE work out the size of vehicle needed in the future and also maybe skip out some stations if they require a large diversion but translate to no passengers and instead replace these stops with an agreement with local taxi firms incase a passenger does want to travel).

Arriva North West have had this for a while, they were using AVL on their Wayfarers during the 2017 "Project Slabtrack" Liverpool Loop line closure and the buses were showing up on Arrivas app as RR1/RR2. They use Ticketers now, and drivers still enter journey info into the machine even on emergency rail replacements.

The 2017 slabtrack project was very well organised and there were a number of extremely frequent buses with plenty of spares lined up ready to take extra capacity.

 

[markymark2000]

Arriva North West have had this for a while, they were using AVL on their Wayfarers during the 2017 "Project Slabtrack" Liverpool Loop line closure and the buses were showing up on Arrivas app as RR1/RR2. They use Ticketers now, and drivers still enter journey info into the machine even on emergency rail replacements.

The 2017 slabtrack project was very well organised and there were a number of extremely frequent buses with plenty of spares lined up ready to take extra capacity.

Thanks for that info, I was unaware of that.

 

[L401CJF]

Thanks for that info, I was unaware of that.

I can't confirm if the rail buses still show on the live map etc, or whether its just for the depot staff to see locations of vehicles etc, but I'll have a look on the app next time there's some replacements on.