Rail strikes discussion

[Cowley]

The forum team are aware that the subject of industrial action is a highly passionate topic. As such, in this thread only, we are now trialling allowing free debate on this subject.

Please be advised that, due to the anticipated pace of discussion and the understandable passion on both sides of the debate, this thread will be reactively moderated only, with the exception of bad language and direct personal insults.

From now on any general debate on industrial action is expressly permitted in this thread only.
If and when action actually takes place we will look at opening threads relating to service disruption where people can get information where it’s affecting travel plans etc.

The forum team at their sole discretion, may also move posts from other threads into this one if they are on the subject of industrial action.

 

[Saint66]

Anyone know when strike timetables/TOC plans are likely to published? A week out?

 

[ComUtoR]

There are no "agency" or "supply staff" in any operational safety related role on the railway. The only agency staff are engineering staff employed by specialist contractors and they undergo the same PTS, Rules and Regs and safety training as NR staff.

We use OnTrack for Platform Dispatch staff.

 

[ar10642]

Does anyone know what's likely to happen if there is no agreement after the first set of strikes? The same thing every week or do they have to give another 2 week notice period?

 

[Gems]

If Grant Shapps bans next day overtime, does this mean we conductors here at Northern are banned from covering our Sundays. Sundays are not part of our working week, they're all overtime shifts.

I do hope this is the case. A day at the stockcars could beckon.

 

[Signal_Box]

Should a government mandated rest day ban be implemented then it’ll only cripple the railway more than a few days strike!

There’s a reason why staff are working maximum legal turns, with minimum legal rest followed by maximum legal turns and repeat for months on end!

 

[Bald Rick]

Anyone know when strike timetables/TOC plans are likely to published? A week out?

around 4 days out.

Does anyone know what's likely to happen if there is no agreement after the first set of strikes? The same thing every week or do they have to give another 2 week notice period?

the unions must give 14 days notice of any strike action.

 

[306024]

Anyone know when strike timetables/TOC plans are likely to published? A week out?

There are no firm timescales you can give. A huge amount of work is needed, based on constantly changing assumptions, which will vary from TOC to TOC.

Spare a thought for all those planners and roster staff, already fatigued with the constant Covid changes, now having to cope with this too.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Anyone know when strike timetables/TOC plans are likely to published? A week out?

National Rail have setup a dedicated page. No info yet

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/industrialaction.aspx

 

[JonathanH]

Does anyone know what's likely to happen if there is no agreement after the first set of strikes? The same thing every week or do they have to give another 2 week notice period?

Presumably it is not out of the question that more strikes will be announced this coming week for two week's time, even though the first ones haven't happened yet.

14 days notice unless employer and union agree 7 days notice.
https://www.local.gov.uk/our-suppor...elations/employment-law-topics-and-e-guides-6

Notice of industrial action
For all industrial action, whether or not the ballot took place before or after 1 March 2017, 14 days' notice must be provided to all relevant employers (any who employ members who will be called upon to take action) before industrial action can begin, unless the employer(s) and union agree to seven days’ notice.

Why would a shorter period of notice be agreed in a dispute?

 

[ar10642]

the unions must give 14 days notice of any strike action.

Thanks. So in theory if this drags on where we get one week where the railway is effectively unusable, followed by 2 weeks of it working, then repeat?

 

[2021_Signaller]

I'm quite bullish about the strike action. It isn't really about the pay for me even though I am only a very low grade. The terms and conditions and actually 'modernisation' to S&T and P-Way will have a big impact on signaller workload. There's a very good reason to strike to keep the job a good one, and to not do so, at this point, will see us taken to the cleaners.

It's like Bob Crowe used to say: if you take strike action, I can't promise you that we'll win. However, if you don't take strike action, I guarantee that you lose.

 

[wobman]

The upcoming strikes if they happen will cause chaos, traincrew not involved in the strike action will be sitting in messrooms with no trains running in the effected area i work.

That's the impact of signallers and maintenance staff have on the running of the railways, the proposed staff cuts are poorly thought out.
Unfortunately the Dft & govt haven't a clue how the railways actually work, they are genuinely clueless.

 

[ar10642]

Presumably it is not out of the question that more strikes will be announced this coming week for two week's time, even though the first ones haven't happened yet.

I thought the idea was to get around a table and work something out?

 

[Signal_Box]

I'm quite bullish about the strike action. It isn't really about the pay for me even though I am only a very low grade. The terms and conditions and actually 'modernisation' to S&T and P-Way will have a big impact on signaller workload. There's really good reason to strike and to not do so will see us taken to the cleaners.

It's like Bob Crowe used to say: if you take strike action, I can't promise you that we'll win. However, if you don't take strike action, I guarantee that you lose.

Exactly, I heard somewhere the company has a rather large payment to make next year to assume government, their looking at using the currently in surplus pension fund to pay to is bill.

 

[Gems]

I'm quite bullish about the strike action. It isn't really about the pay for me even though I am only a very low grade. The terms and conditions and actually 'modernisation' to S&T and P-Way will have a big impact on signaller workload. There's a very good reason to strike to keep the job a good one, and to not do so, at this point, will see us taken to the cleaners.

It's like Bob Crowe used to say: if you take strike action, I can't promise you that we'll win. However, if you don't take strike action, I guarantee that you lose.

It's clear to me that the government are panicked. Grant Shapps today just made himself look rather foolish. Those sort of threats will just create a siege mentality.

 

[eldomtom2]

It's clear to me that the government are panicked. Grant Shapps today just made himself look rather foolish. Those sort of threats will just create a siege mentality.

Among the government? Certainly there are some very strict laws they could copy from places like the US...

 

[Horizon22]

We use OnTrack for Platform Dispatch staff.

Indeed - there are agency staff for gateline, dispatch and customer service.

What there evidently aren’t are agency staff for other safety critical with significant training and rule book requirements, including drivers, signallers and guards (although some TOCs have contingency programmes for the latter). The general public doesn’t generally seem to have grasped this distinction.

 

[Gems]

Among the government? Certainly there are some very strict laws they could copy from places like the US...

What you and everyone else on here have to remember though is this. Changes in law will affect everyone at some point. Be careful what you desire.

 

[Starmill]

I thought the idea was to get around a table and work something out?

Is there even any negotiation taking place?

 

[ar10642]

Is there even any negotiation taking place?

I naively assumed a strike would happen and then a discussion afterwards. Or are both sides just digging in for a long fight?

 

[diffident]

I naively assumed a strike would happen and then a discussion afterwards. Or are both sides just digging in for a long fight?

I reckon both sides are already holed up in their trenches.

 

[ar10642]

I reckon both sides are already holed up in their trenches.

I was recently told "nobody wants a strike" which I guess wasn't true at all then.

 

[JonathanH]

I naively assumed a strike would happen and then a discussion afterwards. Or are both sides just digging in for a long fight?

As you suggest the point of announcing a strike is to bring the other party to the table. However, if the other party doesn't come to the table it makes sense to escalate the action. If there has been no movement caused by the threat of strikes then some more strikes will be threatened for the following week. It isn't a case of the strikes happening then talks then breakdown then more strikes. Indeed, once the strikes have actually happened, the negotiating position of the Union is diminished because the strikes are in the past.

 

[brad465]

Elsewhere on the web it's common to see opponents of the strikes go cheap arguments that prove they don't know what they're talking about. The top one seems to be arguing why we don't have more driverless trains in 2022, which would eliminate the need for strikes by subject staff; now I'm not a full expert in this, but I imagine in reality it would cost a lot more than HS2 to upgrade all the infrastructure and replace all the rolling stock to make it happen (particularly at a time when the DfT are making cutbacks), combined with the fact that mixed traffic railways are much harder to automate than metro/light rail systems like the DLR. I'm sure there are plenty of others.

 

[2021_Signaller]

It's clear to me that the government are panicked. Grant Shapps today just made himself look rather foolish. Those sort of threats will just create a siege mentality.

I agree. The way the transport secretary has handled the threat of strike action has been shambolic and lashing out continuously suggests he's not only feeling the pressure, but he has a poor grasp of his brief. Threats to ban strike action entirely, now its to change the law for agency staff etc, this is not the actions of a confident minister. That isn't to underestimate the government or public sentiment which can be a slippery and volatile thing. However, I can't see how a prolonged dispute is anything but an enormous headache for government during a time when it is crisis after crisis with the economy.

I think we should be prepared for a prolonged dispute. I also think that if we stay the course and continue to act reasonably, which we have done, making fair arguments, that we will win this.

Negotiations will be going on around the clock until the strike dates. This is the window when things happen.

 

[Horizon22]

I was recently told "nobody wants a strike" which I guess wasn't true at all then.

Might well be true, but both sides “red lines” are too far apart at present so they are grudgingly accepting it.

 

[ar10642]

As you suggest the point of announcing a strike is to bring the other party to the table. However, if the other party doesn't come to the table it makes sense to escalate the action. If there has been no movement caused by the threat of strikes then some more strikes will be threatened for the following week. It isn't a case of the strikes happening then talks then breakdown then more strikes. Indeed, once the strikes have actually happened, the negotiating position of the Union is diminished because the strikes are in the past.

I was thinking they would come to the table and say "that was bad, give into our demands or we'll do it again". Not just do it again anyway.

So I guess those us who might like to use it should all just plan as if there is no railway for the entire summer then.

 

[Kite159]

I'm waiting for one of the RMT spokespeople to make a large slip-up allowing a legal challenge to be made in the courts.

As for the railways, just plan that some weeks it will be unusable, don't book any accommodation which hasn't got free cancellation (or free date changes) so it can be cancelled when more dates come out.

 

[diffident]

I'm waiting for one of the RMT spokespeople to make a large slip-up allowing a legal challenge to be made in the courts.

As for the railways, just plan that some weeks it will be unusable, don't book any accommodation which hasn't got free cancellation (or free date changes) so it can be cancelled when more dates come out.

I think this is where a lot of the problems for the rail industry going forward are going to stem from. I've relied on the railways for 22 years, my whole working life. I don't drive. This summer I have a full slate of work around the country and would ordinarily do that by train. Instead, I'm flying (domestically), using coaches and in worst case scenarios, holding meetings online. I've also decided that I may as well block-book an intensive driving course and get a car.