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Rail strikes discussion

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Watershed

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£1.6bn pre tax profit last year according to Network Rail's own accounts.

Network Rail 2021 statement
Network Rail receives around £7bn in direct subsidy each year. The government also pays for operators' costs, which include fixed and variable track access charges and rent for stations and depots paid to Network Rail. These amount to around £2bn a year. It also has a huge amount of debt - £57bn.

It does not make a profit in any meaningful sense of the word.
 
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quantinghome

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Finally, I note that you say that the government should take responsibility for the financial situation. I'm very sorry to say that as the government doesn't actually have any of its own money, that's impossible.
Eh? Who controls the money supply? Who controls the printing presses? Who can issue their own bonds at the lowest possible rate of interest?

Of course the government needs to be careful with money supply. Inflation and deflated are both problematic and need to be avoided. But to suggest the government doesn't have any of its own money is clearly not correct.
 

windingroad

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I don't think that's universally true.
Is this a particularly useful point, though? No statement which generalises (no matter how accurate) will ever be universally true, as there will always be outliers and exceptions that prove the rule. I would define "the elite" as the very wealthy and/or the very powerful, and I'd argue a certain degree of exploitation is almost always a necessity to become the former.
 
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as i mentioned in a earlier post, tech. is advancing in leaps and bounds, you can buy tickets from a number of apps, so why keep booking offices?. S&T is tech. now and go more so in the near future, so if there is a little box somewhere out in the sticks where a lone signalman is pulling levers, he wont for much longer. All industries are advancing, in robotics, NHS, most engineering companies, i used to be a turret lathe operator but 50 odd years ago that went automatic, so we lost 30 operators, and 2-3 setters remained, "progress"?... there's automatic-trains now in other countries they will bound to come here, there's no job for life.
So is it going to be the case of the Luddite movement re-emerging?
Must have missed the part of the asset stripping that mentioned spending hundreds of millions resignalling locations to strip out signal box. Where's this huge investment coming from? It would be a strange decision for the government to do since it's simultaneously arguing passengers are not using the railway anymore. The railway has always used tech, what we were talking about was redundancies to critical on track jobs that cannot be replaced by tech.
 

Starmill

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Eh? Who controls the money supply? Who controls the printing presses? Who can issue their own bonds at the lowest possible rate of interest?

Of course the government needs to be careful with money supply. Inflation and deflated are both problematic and need to be avoided. But to suggest the government doesn't have any of its own money is clearly not correct.
The government has those rights because they have been delegated to it by the people. The money belongs to us, not Minsters or Civil Servants or the Governor of the Bank. The post I was replying to suggested that the the government's decisions to spend on Covid relief, aid to Ukrainians and so on is a separate matter from public sector pay. It is wrong to suggest that these are separate. They are all matters of the same public funding. They are all things which the market alone would not provide.
 

Moonshot

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Must have missed the part of the asset stripping that mentioned spending hundreds of millions resignalling locations to strip out signal box. Where's this huge investment coming from? It would be a strange decision for the government to do since it's simultaneously arguing passengers are not using the railway anymore. The railway has always used tech, what we were talking about was redundancies to critical on track jobs that cannot be replaced by tech.
A rolling programme of box closure already exists.....and has done for years. I can think of at least 10 signal boxes that have shut in my neck of the woods in the last few years.
 

Need2

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I keep hearing, both on here and on the news etc etc that awarding a to high pay rise to workers will create an upward spiral in inflation.
Nobody, absolutely nobody has been able to give any figures on it, ie if everyone got 1% inflation would rise x%
5% inflation would rise x%
It seems all I hear is yes it would happen because it happened before but not one concrete figure.
If these ‘experts’ (on here as well) can state 100% that it will happen then where’s the statistical evidence?
 
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A rolling programme of box closure already exists.....and has done for years. I can think of at least 10 signal boxes that have shut in my neck of the woods in the last few years.
It's not what this fake 'modernisation' plan is about though is it? so not relevant to what we're talking about.

I keep hearing, both on here and on the news etc etc that awarding a to high pay rise to workers will create an upward spiral in inflation.
Nobody, absolutely nobody has been able to give any figures on it, ie if everyone got 1% inflation would rise x%
5% inflation would rise x%
It seems all I hear is yes it would happen because it happened before but not one concrete figure.
If these ‘experts’ (on here as well) can state 100% that it will happen then where’s the statistical evidence?
Indeed but we've got to keep printing money for the banks quantitative easing programme. They get our buddies in the city fat cat deals who then donate to our political campaigns - the circle of life for these rogues.
 

Wolfie

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Well, the rights and wrongs of it is academic. We have NR and government saying maintenance is unproductive and therefore needs to be cut. You're making them unproductive! It's all lies from top to bottom. Our senior management are a disgrace.
Safety measures can impact on productivity that is true. However that's hardly a rational reason for continuing to operate in a manner which has led to injuries and indeed fatalities.
 
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Wolfie

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Well, the rights and wrongs of it is academic. We have NR and government saying maintenance is unproductive and therefore needs to be cut. You're making them unproductive! It's all lies from top to bottom. Our senior management are a disgrace.
I am not entirely sure that either RMT or your track maintenance colleagues will bless you for wanting them to operate a regime which was ended for safety reasons. Had there not unfortunately been fatalities and injuries l am absolutely certain that ORR wouldn't have demanded change
 

Fred26

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Despite the exaggerated claims of 'our members resorting to foodbanks', it's actually agency workers such as yourself who are amongst the biggest victims of this strike - and with whom I have an enormous amount of sympathy.

Mr Lynch couldn't care less; if you put this point to him, he would no doubt glibly say that you should be joining the RMT and striking too...

I appreciate that, many thanks.

I am trying to see both sides yet now I & others are sat at home with no work at all as a consequence but in any situation as this one there will be casualties.

Mick Lynch could say that, but he'd be wasting his time. Certainly at the TOC I work for, the agencies don't recognise the union, so any agency staff that joined would be wasting their money as the union couldn't rep them.

The RMT want agency workers rights to be on par with those doing the same job. Currently you can have two staff, doing the same job, at the same time, for different wages.
Permanent staff get leave and sick pay, as well as free travel arrangements. Agency staff get none of that, beyond statutory laws.

Personally, I agree with equal rights, but I also think the agency staff should only be used on a short term basis. If the staff are decent, give them a permanent position.
My TOC relies very heavily on agency staff, most of which are covering long-term vacancies.
 

quantinghome

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as i mentioned in a earlier post, tech. is advancing in leaps and bounds, you can buy tickets from a number of apps, so why keep booking offices?. S&T is tech. now and go more so in the near future, so if there is a little box somewhere out in the sticks where a lone signalman is pulling levers, he wont for much longer. All industries are advancing, in robotics, NHS, most engineering companies, i used to be a turret lathe operator but 50 odd years ago that went automatic, so we lost 30 operators, and 2-3 setters remained, "progress"?... there's automatic-trains now in other countries they will bound to come here, there's no job for life.
So is it going to be the case of the Luddite movement re-emerging?
The railway is always bringing in new technology. No one, not even the RMT, is disputing this. And everyone accepts that this affects jobs. Ticket office staff have gradually reduced as TVMs and now e-tickets become more common. The number of signalling staff is reducing as control is passed to ROCs. New and better kit is developed which reduces the need for manual work. And for the most part modernisation has been brought in through good faith negotiation.

But over certain things the RMT has stuck their foot down, like keeping a second safety-critical member of staff on board trains. And the same applies to maintenance work. We have been here before with Railtrack who thought they could automate and outsource safety-critical operation and maintenance work. With fatal consequences. The most recent fatal rail crash was largely due to failures in on-site supervision of a new drainage system. How can you automate that?

Automatic trains are a fantasy on anything but a new line built specifcally for the purpose and hermetically sealed from the external environment. For an existing railway to become automatic, you'd need an AI so smart that the first thing it would do is join a union!
 

Wolfie

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IME of engineering worksites, the access points and PnB facilities could be miles from the actual worksite itself. Staff had bags with sandwiches and drinks and took very limited breaks at the trackside, and had bog roll in their pockets in case nature called and headed for the nearest point out of site to relieve themselves.

The idea that maintenance workers lead some sort of charmed life is more lies to paint railway workers in a poor light. They already work some of the most unsociable hours and in the most inhospitable environments in the workplace.
I am absolutely sure that is the case.
 
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I am not entirely sure that either RMT or your track maintenance colleagues will bless you for wanting them to operate a regime which was ended for safety reasons. Had there not unfortunately been fatalities and injuries l am absolutely certain that ORR wouldn't have demanded change
Again irrelevant. The issue is that according to government &NR our maintenance teams are unproductive and that's why they should be made redundant. As I have shown you this is a lie. Lack of productivity is the byproduct of decisions made by NR and nothing to do with maintenance.
 

TwoYellas

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I keep hearing, both on here and on the news etc etc that awarding a to high pay rise to workers will create an upward spiral in inflation.
Nobody, absolutely nobody has been able to give any figures on it, ie if everyone got 1% inflation would rise x%
5% inflation would rise x%
It seems all I hear is yes it would happen because it happened before but not one concrete figure.
If these ‘experts’ (on here as well) can state 100% that it will happen then where’s the statistical evidence?
Watched a video on YouTube yesterday of Yanis Varoufskis being interviewed by Owen Jones. Sorry, I'm rubbish at links on here; but at about 9 mins this is, discussed.

Apparently (according to Varafoukis) wage inflation is mentioned a lot by the powers that be when it comes to poor people wanting to survive, but it not mentioned in regards to awarding banker bonuses and director bonuses. Nor is it discussed in connection with property price increases in some very affluent areas. So it's an attack on ordinary people.

Also he says the rate of inflation works out more for the poor than for the very rich; for various reasons.
 

matacaster

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At what point does it settle, life expectancy for a male in UK is 78.7

And the issue is the "elite" have absolutely no interest in the position of the "workers"

The same as the pensioners lecturing the youth of today is ridiculous.

We live is a weird society where people idolise company bosses who have so much money they are able to fly to space but do not allow the employees toilet breaks and sick pay.
Take Elon musk. Yes, he fits your definition of elite. Now he has become rich by having ideas (was involved heavily in PayPal) and tesla, spacex and various other things. He has risked everything he has several times. He works insanely long hours himself. He has created many thousands of jobs, some not well paid I accept, but he is an innovator. Some pension funds have made a lot of money on tesla.

The vast majority of people do not have the ideas, brains, education, drive and risk taking to do things like Elon musk has done or even open a very small business. People who just think that it is someone else's job (govt or company) to provide them with a good well paying job when they take no risks and just stick to a rigid contract in which every minor change should get more pay are really like dinosaurs.

I'd still like someone to publish the 'rule book' which unions use to demand extra payments for change or refuse to do tasks. It must go into microscopic detail or is it actually just the shop stewards opinion as to whether the staff can do it. Let management manage, let the unions be consulted.
 

moleman212

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I keep hearing, both on here and on the news etc etc that awarding a to high pay rise to workers will create an upward spiral in inflation.
Nobody, absolutely nobody has been able to give any figures on it, ie if everyone got 1% inflation would rise x%
5% inflation would rise x%
It seems all I hear is yes it would happen because it happened before but not one concrete figure.
If these ‘experts’ (on here as well) can state 100% that it will happen then where’s the statistical evidence?
It's all supposition. Life is a game of chances and probabilities. Someone earlier quoted 65 economists who said such a spiral would be unlikely to happen. But there will be an equal number of economists who'd say the opposite...
 

bramling

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Watched a video on YouTube yesterday of Yanis Varoufskis being interviewed by Owen Jones. Sorry, I'm rubbish at links on here; but at about 9 mins this is, discussed.

Apparently (according to Varafoukis) wage inflation is mentioned a lot by the powers that be when it comes to poor people wanting to survive, but it not mentioned in regards to awarding banker bonuses and director bonuses. Nor is it discussed in connection with property price increases in some very affluent areas. So it's an attack on ordinary people.

Also he says the rate of inflation works out more for the poor than for the very rich; for various reasons.

Property price inflation is a bit of a red herring. My place has inflated pretty much tenfold in three decades (partly due to the presence of a nearly railway station and a number of well-regarded schools), but this isn’t much use to me as I have no desire to move elsewhere. In fact, it’s a nuisance when it comes to leaving to anyone due to inheritance tax.
 

Wolfie

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Talk again that a law change is being pushed through that will allow agency staff to cover industrial action.

Excuse my ignorance but agency staff like myself already cover rail work but is there something ‘written’ somewhere that agency workers can’t cover industrial action? I assume there is?

I appreciate any cover will only be for CSA, Gateline & Dispatch.
"Regulation 7 of the Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Businesses Regulations 2003 (SI 2003/3319) precludes the provision of temporary workers to perform the duties normally performed by a worker who is taking part in a strike or other industrial action. An employment business supplying workers in these circumstances will be committing a criminal offence, and the employer could be found to be aiding and abetting that offence.

The restriction does not apply if strike action is unofficial (ie is not endorsed by a union) or where the employment business providing the temporary worker does not know about the industrial action and has no reasonable grounds for knowing about the industrial action.

The Regulations do not prevent an employer from directly employing temporary employees on fixed-term contracts to cover the work of employees on strike, rather than hiring agency workers."

 

bramling

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It's all supposition. Life is a game of chances and probabilities. Someone earlier quoted 65 economists who said such a spiral would be unlikely to happen. But there will be an equal number of economists who'd say the opposite...

We are kind of stuck because there seems to still be an element of pent-up demand in the economy as a consequence of the last two years. So anything which stimulates demand for goods and services is likely to stimulate inflation (even if the root cause for the current inflation is more on the supply side). But suppress that demand and you risk further damaging an already fragile economy. Hence stagflation.

None of this helps people pay bills, of course.
 

Fokx

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I've just spent several hours on a picket line and the ratio of people calling us w*****s to those in support would suggest to me public opinion is not what the DM and Government would want you to think it is.
Have to agree here.

I’ve intentionally been walking up and down the train more often than usual both before and after the strikes, speaking with passengers about the industrial action (not the politics - but what to expect service wise, what’s running etc).

I’ve not had a single person give me any grief at all, and even had a pensioner go out of her way to come up to me whilst at a station and say “Good luck for tomorrow”
 

SCDR_WMR

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So it seems we're stuck in an endless argument on here now, yet nobody seems to be posting what has been offered and what that equates to.

Hopefully this allows people to understand why it's so divisive;

NR - offer is 2% plus 2 payments of 0.5% of salary this year, changes to T&Cs
- ~2500 compulsory redundancies
- increase weeks on nights (28-39)
- reduce night shift pay from 1.25x to 1.10x rate
- reduce weekend shift pay from 1.50x to 1.10x rate
- no mention of new tech in moderation so far
Also talk of fire and rehire for mobile operatives, onto self employed contracts requiring own vans, no guarantee on fuel allowance.

As you can see that it quite a hit to someone's earnings in the name of modernisation.

TOC - off is 2% plus extra 1% in exchange for T&C's
Not a lot of detail discussed yet, but in today's meeting TOCs have explicitly stated their desire to change to DOO on 'all applicable routes and traction on a date to be specified'.
Also mention of the 'creation of a customer service grade' which I believe was in GBR documents earlier this year.
Pensionable age to be raised 62-65

This information has been shared by RMT Secretary via Regional reps.
 

SCDR_WMR

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Have to agree here.

I’ve intentionally been walking up and down the train more often than usual both before and after the strikes, speaking with passengers about the industrial action (not the politics - but what to expect service wise, what’s running etc).

I’ve not had a single person give me any grief at all, and even had a pensioner go out of her way to come up to me whilst at a station and say “Good luck for tomorrow”
That's been exactly my experience too, even on a train that was over 3hrs late into Euston on Friday. Not one person showed negativity to strike action, had plenty of support and pats on the back (literally!)
 

yorksrob

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I think that the Government will have difficulty painting it all as a union problem to passengers because we've already been experiencing the short forms and missing trains as a result of the treasury's beef with the industry.

Similarly, the closure of ticket offices just sounds like another cut directed towards passengers, however much they try to dress it up as "progress".
 

CFRAIL

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I didn’t really understand the word scab as I’m not in a rail Union but googling it’s obviously derogatory.

‘Universal Law’ something else I’m not aware of but anyway, so agency staff if they currently have a shift is not to cross the picket line?

Mister Lynch on the evening news yesterday said he/they would ask agency staff not to cross the picket & ask them not to work.

Agency staff have zero TOC benefits obviously, would have go home with no pay because they’ve not worked & probably would be sacked for refusing to work & yet again I’ve posted a few times current agency staff had this week’s shifts cancelled because of the strike as not required.

And again I’ll say nobody should have their T&Cs eroded but there are casualties in this.

When the RMT secure TOC staff a satisfactory deal then zero hour agency staff won’t be given a second though but never mind that’s life.
Which is probably why unions would much rather all railway jobs be in house and not covered by agency staff, that way you can join a TOC and have the same T's & C's, protections and benefits.
 

SynthD

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I keep hearing, both on here and on the news etc etc that awarding a to high pay rise to workers will create an upward spiral in inflation.
Nobody, absolutely nobody has been able to give any figures on it, ie if everyone got 1% inflation would rise x%
5% inflation would rise x%
It seems all I hear is yes it would happen because it happened before but not one concrete figure.
If these ‘experts’ (on here as well) can state 100% that it will happen then where’s the statistical evidence?
You can tell someone’s not an expert in a field like finance by them stating something 100%. I hope we get an answer to the experts standards.
 

gazr

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Have to agree here.

I’ve intentionally been walking up and down the train more often than usual both before and after the strikes, speaking with passengers about the industrial action (not the politics - but what to expect service wise, what’s running etc).

I’ve not had a single person give me any grief at all, and even had a pensioner go out of her way to come up to me whilst at a station and say “Good luck for tomorrow”
How many 'normal' people would go up and shout obscenities at others in public? Most who disagree just get on with things, knowing it's not worth arguing with people who are incapable of reason. Would hardly call your observations a metric of what people think.
 
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