Rail strikes discussion

[Need2]

You can tell someone’s not an expert in a field like finance by them stating something 100%. I hope we get an answer to the experts standards.

I would just like an answer!
Either it WILL happen, MP’s and ‘experts’ say it will.
Prove it then!
How hard can it be?
Or are we being shafted big time?

 

[2021_Signaller]

Many thanks for your reply. As I will reiterate, I was not being contentious just curious as to how, and why, this is still a practice given it plays straight into the hands of the right wing media and "management " alike .

I would also say I don't believe the propaganda / PR "spin " offered to the public...I could fill pages with the same from airline "management " which bore no resemblance to the reality including, in one instance, a change to my T's and C's induced by an act of duplicity that was staggering with its arrogance and implementation.

Too be fair whatever the reality they're solely focused on creating a perception that the railway is some how stuck in the dark ages. The truth doesn't matter to them.

 

[Wolfie]

It's all supposition. Life is a game of chances and probabilities. Someone earlier quoted 65 economists who said such a spiral would be unlikely to happen. But there will be an equal number of economists who'd say the opposite...

There is an old saying along the lines of 100 economists having 101 divergent opinions.....

 

[Starmill]

The NHS seems to think that I'll still be in a fit state to push overweight people around on trolleys (amongst many other clinical duties) until I'm 70.

68 surely? Is your occupational scheme really moving to a minimum age of 70?

Of course, there's the argument that the state pension age will need to rise again after 68, but in my view longevity is very unlikely to rise enough to allow this.

 

[Wolfie]

That does rely on good comms for the unions, which to be fair RMT haven’t been doing too badly on this time round for the most part. It possibly helps that this government has a pretty bad reputation at the moment, so anything Johnson comes out with is less likely to be well received.

Certainly the vibe I get is that many people seem to see this as simply another symptom of the rather ineffective and chaotic government we’ve been seeing for some time now. If you wind up one group of people then it may be one thing, however Johnson seems to be causing problems across the board, and there comes a point where it simply can’t be the rest of the world that’s the problem.

True enough.

 

[matacaster]

Safety measures can impact on productivity that is true. However that's hardly a rational reason for continuing to operate in a manner which has led to injuries and indeed fatalities.

On the roads, works can take over part of the road, fence it off with flimsy barriers and an ineffective 30mph sign or temporary traffic lights. On the railways, things like this seem to have been stopped. This will be costing lots of money, seems someone at raib? wants to cover their arse and things should be more realistic.
However, reforming maintenance practices should be looked at in a spirit of cooperation rather than antagonism.

 

[Wolfie]

Boardroom pay is, I agree, far too high. This is partly because the chief execs are often savvy enough to investigate, make new plans, get them approved and make sure they get out before the sh*t hits the fan. The reason say a ftse100 boardroom of say 12 people might get say £20m between them is that these people are considered to have the confidence of investors and banks. If 100, 000 railway works get 10% increase in their salary (say £35000 average) as an increase its like 3500x100000= £350,000,000 and that isn't allowing for increased pensions etc

Exactly.

 

[2021_Signaller]

The government "chose" to do a global pandemic! Utterly pathetic bilge from someone completely self-interested with the empathy of a brick.

There we are again. The government had a choice: to have stringent restrictions or no/few restrictions. It chose the former (despite Downing St not believing they were necessary since they weren't too scared to keep on partying while those that tried to do the same outside were promptly arrested & fined for it).The countries that did less in the way of restrictions did far better.

Government made that decision. Nobody made it for them. They trashed the economy, they unleashed massive inflation, they sent debt soaring to new highs never before known (so much for Jezza Corbyn doing that- seems Boris outflanked Labour again). Those countries that had fewer restrictions were less affected and recovered much faster. Government needs to be held accountable for its decisions.

 

[Starmill]

On the roads, works can take over part of the road, fence it off with flimsy barriers and an ineffective 30mph sign or temporary traffic lights. On the railways, things like this seem to have been stopped. This will be costing lots of money, seems someone at raib? wants to cover their arse and things should be more realistic.
However, reforming maintenance practices should be looked at in a spirit of cooperation rather than antagonism.

Blocking some lines and erecting a barrier is still permitted. The issue is that there's not enough space to do this on double track route and obviously it's impossible on single track anyway. The 'six foot' is too narrow to permit this kind of single line working around an obstruction. On various new build railways such as HS2 the lines will be far enough apart to permit this.

 

[Wolfie]

The NHS seems to think that I'll still be in a fit state to push overweight people around on trolleys (amongst many other clinical duties) until I'm 70.

The civil service chose to raise the pension age and also reduce the trigger points for absence management action.... Strangely enough an aging workforce is likely to have more medical absences....

I would just like an answer!
Either it WILL happen, MP’s and ‘experts’ say it will.
Prove it then!
How hard can it be?
Or are we being shafted big time?

Past precedent suggests that it will but no two sets of circumstances are exactly the same.

68 surely? Is your occupational scheme really moving to a minimum age of 70?

Of course, there's the argument that the state pension age will need to rise again after 68, but in my view longevity is very unlikely to rise enough to allow this.

Many public sector schemes now have a direct link to state pension age. There is a review due next year. All of the mood music is that it will go up again.

 

[Hellzapoppin]

Again irrelevant. The issue is that according to government &NR our maintenance teams are unproductive and that's why they should be made redundant. As I have shown you this is a lie. Lack of productivity is the byproduct of decisions made by NR and nothing to do with maintenance.

Maintenance is not unproductive but the ways it's done is.

 

[SynthD]

I would just like an answer!
Either it WILL happen, MP’s and ‘experts’ say it will.
Prove it then!
How hard can it be?
Or are we being shafted big time?

You’re being shafted by your expectations. See what Varoufskis has to say. I wouldn’t expect many economists to be both braver in predictions than him and worth listening to. As a layman I know that there are too many factors in the real world.

 

[SuperNova]

Take Elon musk. Yes, he fits your definition of elite. Now he has become rich by having ideas (was involved heavily in PayPal) and tesla, spacex and various other things. He has risked everything he has several times. He works insanely long hours himself. He has created many thousands of jobs, some not well paid I accept, but he is an innovator. Some pension funds have made a lot of money on tesla.

The vast majority of people do not have the ideas, brains, education, drive and risk taking to do things like Elon musk has done or even open a very small business. People who just think that it is someone else's job (govt or company) to provide them with a good well paying job when they take no risks and just stick to a rigid contract in which every minor change should get more pay are really like dinosaurs.

I'd still like someone to publish the 'rule book' which unions use to demand extra payments for change or refuse to do tasks. It must go into microscopic detail or is it actually just the shop stewards opinion as to whether the staff can do it. Let management manage, let the unions be consulted.

Not sure using Elon Musk as an example is quite right. This is a bloke who has broken US Labour laws, is proactively anti-union and workers rights. He’s your typical hyper-capitalist who for some reason has a weird fan base that idolise him.

 

[Wolfie]

There we are again. The government had a choice: to have stringent restrictions or no/few restrictions. It chose the former (despite Downing St not believing they were necessary since they weren't too scared to keep on partying while those that tried to do the same outside were promptly arrested & fined for it).The countries that did less in the way of restrictions did far better.

Government made that decision. Nobody made it for them. They trashed the economy, they unleashed massive inflation, they sent debt soaring to new highs never before known (so much for Jezza Corbyn doing that- seems Boris outflanked Labour again). Those countries that had fewer restrictions were less affected and recovered much faster. Government needs to be held accountable for its decisions.

Wonderful, an ill-informed hindsight view of CV....

 

[TwoYellas]

Re your last sentence l believe that is well established.

Re the earlier discussion while l think that it is disgusting that the super-rich receive massive awards while the ordinary workers suffer the reason for the differing inflationary effects is the relative numbers of each category and hence the total impact.

Therefore the system should be fairer and the massive awards at the top should be looked at more closely, especially in connection with donations causing conflicts of interest.

Fair remuneration is the way to go. It's completely upside down in this country; nurses have to go to food banks whilst kleptocrats can steal from their home countries and invest here, for example. It's a joke. I think there's field called Participatory Economics that looks at fair pay and reward; although it's something that I need to look into more myself. But there's definitely something badly wrong!

To put it in s nutshell; I want hard working people to be treated with fairness and crooks and corrupt characters to be clamped down on.

 

[Wolfie]

By savvy enough, I guess you mean things like this where Northern's directors actively tried to remove their pay figures from the public domain.

Publicly owned Northern Trains Limited wanted to keep its Managing Director’s £245-250k salary a secret

On 31 May 2022, Northern Trains Limited (Northern) wrote to us to demand that we stop publishing the salaries and job titles of the ten highest paid managers at the company. The Department for Transport had released this data in response to a request made via our Freedom of Information service, What

www.mysociety.org

That is utterly pathetic not to mention arrogant beyond belief. I hope the response referred to that in Pressdram v Arkell......

 

[bramling]

There we are again. The government had a choice: to have stringent restrictions or no/few restrictions. It chose the former (despite Downing St not believing they were necessary since they weren't too scared to keep on partying while those that tried to do the same outside were promptly arrested & fined for it).The countries that did less in the way of restrictions did far better.

Government made that decision. Nobody made it for them. They trashed the economy, they unleashed massive inflation, they sent debt soaring to new highs never before known (so much for Jezza Corbyn doing that- seems Boris outflanked Labour again). Those countries that had fewer restrictions were less affected and recovered much faster. Government needs to be held accountable for its decisions.

I agree with this, and in particular the point that the government (and Johnson in particular) have failed to address the point that if they seem to have felt that Covid was sufficiently unthreatening that they didn’t need to obey restrictions, why were restrictions imposed, costing billions of our money in the process?

We are where we are though, unfortunately, and the damage has essentially already been done. I can see why staff feel aggrieved (especially with Johnson’s constant goading on top of things). I can also see that money is now tight, and that this applies to the entire public sector not just the railway industry. How on earth this is all reconciled goodness knows, and productivity only get things so far especially in an industry where so much is set in stone.

We have simply reached the end of the road which is our broken political system. No leadership talent, a rubbish government and an equally rubbish opposition.

 

[Wolfie]

Therefore the system should be fairer and the massive awards at the top should be looked at more closely, especially in connection with donations causing conflicts of interest.

Fair remuneration is the way to go. It's completely upside down in this country; nurses have to go to food banks whilst kleptocrats can steal from their home countries and invest here, for example. It's a joke. I think there's field called Participatory Economics that looks at fair pay and reward; although it's something that I need to look into more myself. But there's definitely something badly wrong!

To put it in s nutshell; I want hard working people to be treated with fairness and crooks and corrupt characters to be clamped down on.

I think most sane people would agree with your last para.

 

[2021_Signaller]

Maintenance is not unproductive but the ways it's done is.

You can't do it another way! If you agree with this fairytale plan to sack maintenance and think half that number of maintenance can then do all the work needed during the end of service then I have some old rope to sell you.

It will mean signallers working with faults on 12 hour days without support to fix the faults. Trains will be delayed, the workloads would be enormous and signallers will simply refuse to carry on because it's too dangerous! It's unsafe, unsound and won't save the industry a penny, quite the reverse.

 

[matacaster]

The NHS seems to think that I'll still be in a fit state to push overweight people around on trolleys (amongst many other clinical duties) until I'm 70.

I'm

There we are again. The government had a choice: to have stringent restrictions or no/few restrictions. It chose the former (despite Downing St not believing they were necessary since they weren't too scared to keep on partying while those that tried to do the same outside were promptly arrested & fined for it).The countries that did less in the way of restrictions did far better.

Government made that decision. Nobody made it for them. They trashed the economy, they unleashed massive inflation, they sent debt soaring to new highs never before known (so much for Jezza Corbyn doing that- seems Boris outflanked Labour again). Those countries that had fewer restrictions were less affected and recovered much faster. Government needs to be held accountable for its decisions.

In fairness, no one actually knew how serious covid would be at the start. The govt wanted 'cover' so gave scientists the poison chalice. They knew that what quacks like a duck is one and decided to offer extreme advice based on the premise that huge numbers of people will die. This protected both govt and scientists at the time. One aspect neglected was that eventually we all die and sadly, many of the people who died were vulnerable, old or both. The efforts to prevent people dying or have serious illness were inflicted on say 95% of so of the population that would not die or be serious ill. It would have been more effective to just quarantine those vulnerable people and provide enhanced support for just them in my opinion

 

[TwoYellas]

I think most sane people would agree with your last para.

Then that presents the question; why isn't it happening?

And to answer my own question; because we allow it to! (Unfairness and injustice to continue)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't disagree that retirement ages need to change but do you honestly not see a need to review whether people can be doing certain roles at certain ages?

That's why there are medicals. But that you're a driver now doesn't mean you have to do that until the day you retire.

 

[matacaster]

Blocking some lines and erecting a barrier is still permitted. The issue is that there's not enough space to do this on double track route and obviously it's impossible on single track anyway. The 'six foot' is too narrow to permit this kind of single line working around an obstruction. On various new build railways such as HS2 the lines will be far enough apart to permit this.

Thanks. However, how much extra cost is likely to have been incurred for what degree of increase in safety?

 

[2021_Signaller]

Wonderful, an ill-informed hindsight view of CV....

Perhaps sire can educate us with his wondrous knowledge of this issue and why he thinks what he does instead of his glib one liners suggesting he is too scared to write an explanation for anything.

 

[bramling]

I'm

In fairness, no one actually knew how serious covid would be at the start. The govt wanted 'cover' so gave scientists the poison chalice. They knew that what quacks like a duck is one and decided to offer extreme advice based on the premise that huge numbers of people will die. This protected both govt and scientists at the time. One aspect neglected was that eventually we all die and sadly, many of the people who died were vulnerable, old or both. The efforts to prevent people dying or have serious illness were inflicted on say 95% of so of the population that would not die or be serious ill. It would have been more effective to just quarantine those vulnerable people and provide enhanced support for just them in my opinion

This was always going to be the problem with a “follow the science” policy, which in turn existed because the crop of politicians (and one in particular) were never going to be robust enough to defend a position.

Remember that this prime minister’s main qualification / experience for the role seems to have been writing semi-funny semi-offensive magazine articles, and his tenure as London Mayor (the role where being an oddball rather than any specific competence seems to be the main qualification required) wasn’t a complete shambles.

 

[Hellzapoppin]

You can't do it another way! If you agree with this fairytale plan to sack maintenance and think half that number of maintenance can then do all the work needed during the end of service then I have some old rope to sell you.

It will mean signallers working with faults on 12 hour days without support to fix the faults. Trains will be delayed, the workloads would be enormous and signallers will simply refuse to carry on because it's too dangerous! It's unsafe, unsound and won't save the industry a penny, quite the reverse.

Having spent 38 years in maintenance I am aware of how it's done. The argument you're presenting is not about perceived cuts to staff but how much work/problems the signaller has to deal with. I don't believe the number of staff will be cut to the extent that nothing gets done. As an example S&T teams are historically 3 men, one of those acting as lookout if needed. Lookouts are all but gone now so how about taking that 3rd person and using them in a resource pool. If someone needs an additional pair of hands then they're available. How about planning maintenance so that 1 line block will be used by more than just 1 group of mtce staff be that PW, S&T, D&P etc etc

 

[jon0844]

In this lovely digital social media age, who in their right mind would want to go against Unions on live TV? You'll be identified and doxed in no time. Better to just keep walking.

You're suggesting the union would actively go after someone that said something against it? Really?

 

[Bikeman78]

If you're unemployed and have no income beyond UC, it's not awfully helpful to be told you're getting a pittance because you have the potential to earn more when you get a job.

Anyone else thinking of Kevin Bridges here? Look up Self esteem Friday. Absolutely hilarious.

 

[Starmill]

That is utterly pathetic not to mention arrogant beyond belief. I hope the response referred to that in Pressdram v Arkell......

Being caught in cover-up is always worse than the event. I've yet to see an example to the contrary! People just can't stand dishonesty.

 

[Need2]

Past precedent suggests that it will but no two sets of circumstances are exactly the same.

So we are being shafted then?
The chancellor, PM, MP’s and the resident forum experts state that high pay awards WILL seriously damage the economy by increasing inflation.
So it’s based on what appears to have happened in the 70’s and situations are different so you can’t say if it will happen.