Rail strikes discussion

[adc82140]

68 surely? Is your occupational scheme really moving to a minimum age of 70?

Of course, there's the argument that the state pension age will need to rise again after 68, but in my view longevity is very unlikely to rise enough to allow this.

On paper it's 68 for me, but my union has made it clear that it's likely to be 70 by the time I reach retirement.

 

[HORNIMANS]

Why does it seem wrong? It sounds about right to me.

The problem is £50000 a year salary +10% increase =£55000
for a pensioner £9627 a year now +1o% increase = £10589.
pensioners pay same for fuel, food, and lots of other things.
I saved a lot for my pension to have a decent life afterwards.
between the figures above you see the problem.
the problem is percentages the poor get poorer the rich get richer.

 

[windingroad]

Not sure using Elon Musk as an example is quite right. This is a bloke who has broken US Labour laws, is proactively anti-union and workers rights. He’s your typical hyper-capitalist who for some reason has a weird fan base that idolise him.

Not just labour laws: he's notorious for stock manipulation too. Irrespective of all the ways he's an unpleasant person, he's also not the business genius many believe him to be (which some cursory research will quickly reveal). He's good at investing inherited money in growth areas and hiring smart people, but that's about it.

 

[Starmill]

The problem is £50000 a year salary +10% increase =£55000
for a pensioner £9627 a year now +1o% increase = £10589.
pensioners pay same for fuel, food, and lots of other things.
I saved a lot for my pension to have a decent life afterwards.
between the figures above you see the problem.
the problem is percentages the poor get poorer the rich get richer.

I'm afraid I can't see the link with what I was replying to.

 

[The Planner]

How about planning maintenance so that 1 line block will be used by more than just 1 group of mtce staff be that PW, S&T, D&P etc etc

Are you suggesting that Pway won't work when S&T or others are around?

 

[jettofab]

That's why there are medicals. But that you're a driver now doesn't mean you have to do that until the day you retire.

OK, there are medicals which address whether individual drivers are fit to continue - what happens when they're 62 and struggling with high blood pressure and diabetes (both associated with shift work)? Medicate them and send them back out there? We need to realise that on the whole, it is unlikely for people to be able to continue in front line shift working roles right up to an increased pension age. If now is the time for reform, why not wholesale reform that addresses that as an issue and provides pathways to other roles? Of course you don't have to be a driver until the day you retire but the reality is it is quite a specific skillset and the longer you do it, the harder it is to transition to something else, particularly outside the railway. Ageism in employment isn't exactly something unheard of either.

Again, it is unreasonable to demand railway staff adapt to the modern world in terms of sunday working, pension age, etc without also accepting that employers need to adapt to the modern world and accept and act on what we now know about the impacts of these jobs. This is why you get people digging their heels in over seemingly small issues - if we already have x number of unsociable hours jobs then yes, we're going to refuse a special turn which books on at 0100 and breaks an agreement in some small way. The media would love to spin that as us being unreasonable over shunting time or changing ends or whatever, but when it is a one way street in terms of fatigue and work content that's what happens. It's a wider protest against people who do office jobs in office hours ignoring the reality of what we're being asked to do and the proven health issues associated with shift work.

Two disclaimers: yes, we all know Bob who is happily driving trains at 75 and loves the hours, and yes, plenty of other jobs have unreasonable demands placed on them in terms of shift work.

 

[Lost property]

This is going to provide some very interesting "contrast and compare " reporting, and Gov't response and reaction given the reactions and involvement, even if they do deny it, from Boris and Shapps with regard to the railway industrial action. My apologies if this isn't directly related to this thread, in one sense, but, certainly is in another

Heathrow faces summer of disruption as BA staff vote to strike

BA accused of using ‘fire and rehire’ tactics during lockdown to slash 10% off Unite and GMB workers’ pay

www.theguardian.com

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I live in a terraced house in rural Sussex, 6 miles from the nearest station. It costs me £1,500 in rent a month and it last sold in 2020 for £300,000. It is a tidy house by no means an extravagant.

I am from Sussex and it sadden me that I cant afford a house in my home area.. Prices are double at least what you find in Manchester but that is the joy of supply and demand...A similar house to mine (3 Bedroom semi ex council) is around 300-350k where mine in a good location and next to the pennines like similar next to south downs is 150k

 

[exbrel]

Automatic trains are a fantasy on anything but a new line built specifcally for the purpose and hermetically sealed from the external environment. For an existing railway to become automatic, you'd need an AI so smart that the first thing it would do is join a union!

a new line maybe needed, expensive to build but once installed just basic maintenance needed, no onboard staff, so no wages, or risk of problems in service... the Port Island line Kobe Japan, now being built in France for test phase in 2023, revenue service with drivers 2024, and driverless in 2026 and 2027... plus a few others. Don't worry about your last point that wont be programmed into them.

 

[SynthD]

a new line maybe needed, expensive to build but once installed just basic maintenance needed, no onboard staff, so no wages, or risk of problems in service.

Wages are tiny in the grand scheme of your plans. Risks remain, there are still several human interfaces.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Network Rail receives around £7bn in direct subsidy each year. The government also pays for operators' costs, which include fixed and variable track access charges and rent for stations and depots paid to Network Rail. These amount to around £2bn a year. It also has a huge amount of debt - £57bn.

It does not make a profit in any meaningful sense of the word.

Surely a resource that keeps the railway safe in many ways shouldn't be about "profit" anyway as its Gov controlled, I will say however regarding the dispute that if they made these redundancies "voluntary" it would open the door for proper negotiations.

 

[HST274]

How are different groups balloted by the rmt? Is it by depot, grade, station or a wider region? I only ask as I saw on Tuesday that one depot was still open, albeit with no work...

 

[Watershed]

Surely a resource that keeps the railway safe in many ways shouldn't be about "profit" anyway as its Gov controlled, I will say however regarding the dispute that if they made these redundancies "voluntary" it would open the door for proper negotiations.

The rail industry will never be profitable unless it were to be 'Serpell-ised'. So I was simply responding to the suggestion that Network Rail makes a profit. Which, clearly, it doesn't.

I agree, compulsory redundancies seem quite avoidable here. The problem is that whilst NR are probably open to that, they do not want to put it on the table until the RMT concedes some other point... and so the dispute rumbles on.

 

[matacaster]

Will (wealthy) Arthur scargill's presence on the picket line have a positive or negative effect on the dispute?

 

[cuccir]

Will (wealthy) Arthur scargill's presence on the picket line have a positive or negative effect on the dispute?

Very little either way. You have to be, what, in your mid-40s at least to remember him as anything other than a figure from history? He is long retired from any meaningful presence in British politics

 

[Gems]

If we could just for a moment return to what this thread is supposed to be about.

Northernrail are trying to introduce self despatch at Leeds if no managers are available to despatch. So if I were to self despatch on a non strike day I would be hauled over the coals, but on a strike day it would be okay. Yes, that's the sort of hypocrisy we all love, nothing like a safe railway when it suits. I can only summarize that they are expecting a few managers to want Saturday off.

 

[matacaster]

Surely a resource that keeps the railway safe in many ways shouldn't be about "profit" anyway as its Gov controlled, I will say however regarding the dispute that if they made these redundancies "voluntary" it would open the door for proper negotiations.

The trouble with totally voluntary redundancy schemes is that the ones who are first in the queue are often the ones who have the most transferable skills and are the youngest. Older workers nearing retirement will also likely take a generous severance package. The ones you are left with tend to be those who don't think they are really all that likely to get a job anywhere else on similar wages, have relatively little in way of transferable qualifications and those who just simply very reluctant to change jobs within the railway. Reduces costs, but can lead to a pool of less than optimal recruits. Square pegs round holes unless very careful.

 

[bramling]

Very little either way. You have to be, what, in your mid-40s at least to remember him as anything other than a figure from history? He is long retired from any meaningful presence in British politics

Agreed. It’s symbolic, but no significance beyond that. Johnson may choose to use it for propaganda purposes, but as above this will be irrelevant to those under a certain age.

 

[moleman212]

---

Watched a video on YouTube yesterday of Yanis Varoufskis being interviewed by Owen Jones. Sorry, I'm rubbish at links on here; but at about 9 mins this is, discussed.

Apparently (according to Varafoukis) wage inflation is mentioned a lot by the powers that be when it comes to poor people wanting to survive, but it not mentioned in regards to awarding banker bonuses and director bonuses. Nor is it discussed in connection with property price increases in some very affluent areas. So it's an attack on ordinary people.

Also he says the rate of inflation works out more for the poor than for the very rich; for various reasons.

Owen Jones?

The trouble with totally voluntary redundancy schemes is that the ones who are first in the queue are often the ones who have the most transferable skills and are the youngest. Older workers nearing retirement will also likely take a generous severance package. The ones you are left with tend to be those who don't think they are really all that likely to get a job anywhere else on similar wages, have relatively little in way of transferable qualifications and those who just simply very reluctant to change jobs within the railway. Reduces costs, but can lead to a pool of less than optimal recruits. Square pegs round holes unless very careful.

This rings a bell...some strikers seem reluctant to leave their jobs despite being so angry...some even professing to 'love their job'....but if you feel so aggrieved to strike, then why stay around...

 

[Gems]

Agreed. It’s symbolic, but no significance beyond that. Johnson may choose to use it for propaganda purposes, but as above this will be irrelevant to those under a certain age.

It is symbolic, but not helpful all the same. Same reason why I wish drivers would not get involved. Their whacking great pay packet just gives the right wing rags something to get their teeth into. Oh wait!

 

[LowLevel]

Owen Jones?

This rings a bell...some strikers seem reluctant to leave their jobs despite being so angry...some even professing to 'love their job'....but if you feel so aggrieved to strike, then why stay around...

The concept of always wanting to do something and thoroughly enjoying it, whilst not wishing to be taken advantage of/forced out is alien I assume.

I always wanted to be a train conductor, now I am, and I enjoy it, work hard at it and am good at it. Why should I have to/want to leave in order to fulfill the machinations of Government? I'm at peace with the fact I'll be dead in a few decades time and wish to live an uncomplicated life. This is always difficult for ambitious people to understand.

 

[TwoYellas]

Owen Jones?

Yes, it was a good interview with Mr Varafoukis. Although I've only watched some of it; going to watch the rest now actually.

This rings a bell...some strikers seem reluctant to leave their jobs despite being so angry...some even professing to 'love their job'....but if you feel so aggrieved to strike, then why stay around...

I haven't seen any angry ones; all the ones I've seen on the box seemed chilled out; which was more than could be said of some tv personalities who interviewed Mr Lynch in the last few days. Or for that matter, the quite to the right wing types; despite having Brexit and their type of Gov't in charge they seem angrier now than ever before!

In fact your latter comment goes some way to explain the former. You get a kind of picture. Call it a sixth sense.

 

[matacaster]

If we could just for a moment return to what this thread is supposed to be about.

Northernrail are trying to introduce self despatch at Leeds if no managers are available to despatch. So if I were to self despatch on a non strike day I would be hauled over the coals, but on a strike day it would be okay. Yes, that's the sort of hypocrisy we all love, nothing like a safe railway when it suits. I can only summarize that they are expecting a few managers to want Saturday off.

I guess it all depends on what the definition of safe is. Safety will never be 100%, but cost of safety rises exponentially as one approaches 100%.

Whilst the above is true, it in no way offers a reasonable explanation as to why the Criteria for self dispatch should be different in strike and non strike days. If it is allowed on strike days, then one presumes it is reasonably safe and could be done on other days too. Perhaps there are union rules which normally prohibit it which have been waived because of the strike?

 

[bramling]

The concept of always wanting to do something and thoroughly enjoying it, whilst not wishing to be taken advantage of/forced out is alien I assume.

I always wanted to be a train conductor, now I am, and I enjoy it, work hard at it and am good at it. Why should I have to/want to leave in order to fulfill the machinations of Government? I'm at peace with the fact I'll be dead in a few decades time and wish to live an uncomplicated life. This is always difficult for ambitious people to understand.

Yes lots of people choose jobs because they enjoy them and are able to make their personal sums add up. As an aside, such people are also pretty good to work with as they’re not up to the same antics which some (not all) ambitious types are.

It’s always interesting that many people on the railway say they do really enjoy their job, but hate the internal politics which comes with it. Certainly railway internal politics is something else, which does seem to stem from the transient nature of some elements of management, which runs right up to DFT level. Change is one thing, but the industry certainly sees more than its fair share of change for the sake of it. This in itself seems to breed toxicity.

 

[windingroad]

Owen Jones?

Yes, he interviews all sorts of people. This week he interviewed Peter Hitchens, for example. You'd struggle to find two more ideologically opposed people but it was an interesting conversation. Owen Jones is not the devil.

This rings a bell...some strikers seem reluctant to leave their jobs despite being so angry...some even professing to 'love their job'....but if you feel so aggrieved to strike, then why stay around...

Perhaps they're angry precisely because they do like their job, and don't wish to see that job devalued?

 

[HL7]

So it seems we're stuck in an endless argument on here now, yet nobody seems to be posting what has been offered and what that equates to.

Hopefully this allows people to understand why it's so divisive;

NR - offer is 2% plus 2 payments of 0.5% of salary this year, changes to T&Cs
- ~2500 compulsory redundancies
- increase weeks on nights (28-39)
- reduce night shift pay from 1.25x to 1.10x rate
- reduce weekend shift pay from 1.50x to 1.10x rate
- no mention of new tech in moderation so far
Also talk of fire and rehire for mobile operatives, onto self employed contracts requiring own vans, no guarantee on fuel allowance.

As you can see that it quite a hit to someone's earnings in the name of modernisation.

TOC - off is 2% plus extra 1% in exchange for T&C's
Not a lot of detail discussed yet, but in today's meeting TOCs have explicitly stated their desire to change to DOO on 'all applicable routes and traction on a date to be specified'.
Also mention of the 'creation of a customer service grade' which I believe was in GBR documents earlier this year.
Pensionable age to be raised 62-65

This information has been shared by RMT Secretary via Regional reps.

That’s horrendous and looks like it’s been designed to provoke industrial dispute on a large scale as opposed to being accepted.

 

[Gems]

I guess it all depends on what the definition of safe is. Safety will never be 100%, but cost of safety rises exponentially as one approaches 100%.

Whilst the above is true, it in no way offers a reasonable explanation as to why the Criteria for self dispatch should be different in strike and non strike days. If it is allowed on strike days, then one presumes it is reasonably safe and could be done on other days too. Perhaps there are union rules which normally prohibit it which have been waived because of the strike?

Oh perhaps it's the other way round. Maybe it;s just not safe at all. But we'll leave that to the professionals to figure out, not the armchair experts.

 

[LowLevel]

Oh and just to comment on some of the bizarre notions of so called Spanish Practices - today, I am on strike, however sad I am that that is the case. My roster clerk sent me a very polite and cordial message which I happened to pick up asking me to change my shift next Tuesday. I sent a polite and cordial reply confirming. I didn't demand payment for dealing with a work issue on a strike day

 

[HL7]

Oh and just to comment on some of the bizarre notions of so called Spanish Practices - today, I am on strike, however sad I am that that is the case. My roster clerk sent me a very polite and cordial message which I happened to pick up asking me to change my shift next Tuesday. I sent a polite and cordial reply confirming. I didn't demand payment for dealing with a work issue on a strike day

WRT claims that Grant Shapps wants to ban you from rest day working to stop you recouping losses from striking, are you currently working to rule ie, rest day working ban or are you only striking at this point?

 

[LowLevel]

WRT claims that Grant Shapps wants to ban you from rest day working to stop you recouping losses from striking, are you currently working to rule ie, rest day working ban or are you only striking at this point?

Rosters are still ringing around offering overtime as they always do. No working to rule has been called by the union and no ban has been implemented by the company. They're covering the non strike disrupted days in such a way as to minimise/negate overtime but we are sufficiently short that overtime is needed to staff the service most of the time so any such ban would just hurt the customers further.

Contrary to claims that we are rolling in it lots of people have left recently. Plenty of them have gone back to the airlines.