Rail strikes discussion

[windingroad]

I assume we're talking about the announcement that the guard on the Alton to Waterloo train made? Surely he must know that in an age where nearly everyone has a camera phone it's likely to be featured on social media etc?

Yes, as I said in my post. That doesn't mean the people doing the sharing on social media (or here) should be applauded. Anyone with a genuine concern should report it directly to the company involved. Posting it on a forum and identifying the specific train suggests that there's a certain schadenfreude and/or public shaming going on that I find bleak and depressing.

So I might be going on somewhat of a tangent here, especially seeing as I've not really kept up with the discussion that much, but does anyone else find the level of ignorance surrounding these strikes frustrating?

Unfortunately there's a great deal of it in this very thread!

 

[pt_mad]

So I might be going on somewhat of a tangent here, especially seeing as I've not really kept up with the discussion that much, but does anyone else find the level of ignorance surrounding these strikes frustrating? If you were to go into a typical YouTube comment section you will find a lot of people suggesting that all railway workers striking either get sacked or that they can't wait for automation to make them redundant. I think it's been made clear that drivers aren't the ones striking (at least not all of them) so even though automation of the National Rail network is an irrelevant and unrealistic idea point anyway it kind of shows a great deal of ignorance on the issue itself.

Besides which, why is the fact drivers get highly paid somehow a bad thing and not the fact everyone else is grossly underpaid? I've seen comments suggesting the money go to the NHS staff instead even though firstly, it's not a zero sum game nor is it a race to the bottom, and secondly that they didn't seem to care that much when the junior doctors went on strike a few years ago. The fact is most railway workers aren't so highly paid and the fact some of them are shouldn't make it a race to the bottom and that they should just be quiet about it. The idea of striking is kind of easier said than done for some industries but it's sometimes the only way for workers to get their fair dues.

I know it sounds like I'm just pointlessly ranting but I wanted to know what those who worked on the railway actually made of such ignorance that even Piers Morgan is rambling about it on his show (on a side note, that's how you decide a stance on this issue. See where he stands and take the opposite side ). Does the ignorance surrounding the current strikes and the idea of striking frustrate you as an industry insider as much as it does an outsider like myself?

The phrase nail and head spring to mind.

Some would say that if the coverage of this manages to turn average working people in society against average working people in a union then the current govt has achieved its aims so far.

Rather than everyone saying let's get together and all get ourselves rises to keep up with this rediculous super inflation, they are being encouraged to turn on one another for fighting for better.

Working people didn't turn on the miners from what I remember even though coal was still needed to be dug.

 

[dakta]

"So I might be going on somewhat of a tangent here, especially seeing as I've not really kept up with the discussion that much, but does anyone else find the level of ignorance surrounding these strikes frustrating?"

Not really, but that said if I wanted only chat from qualified experienced subject matter experts with only inside knowledge and no chit chat, assumptions or banter-esque responses I wouldn't be picking to have the conversation on here

It's a big thing that is impacting a lot of people and there's going to be a lot of opinions those at the center are going to think are a bit ignorant. People will generally see it from their angle

 

[High Dyke]

I'm considering my options. It's no skin off my nose. It's the company that's wasted the best part of quarter of a million training me. Looking into becoming a driver if there's a pathway for signallers to make that move...

One of my newer qualified signaller colleagues has just taken up training as a driver, not sure which company though.

 

[Sorcerer]

Not really, but that said if I wanted only chat from qualified experienced subject matter experts with only inside knowledge and no chit chat, assumptions or banter-esque responses I wouldn't be picking to have the conversation on here

I mean this was the most relevant thread for the subject matter so I opted to post it here seeing as it concerns the current strike action as well as rail strikes as a concept. That said nobody's opinions are excluded, I was just interested in particular in those who worked in the industry or even those who know more about it than I do.

It's a big thing that is impacting a lot of people and there's going to be a lot of opinions those at the center are going to think are a bit ignorant. People will generally see it from their angle

Of course, and I am open to discussing the idea of running the services without collecting revenue, and of course I don't rely on the railway to get to work so I'm not really affected by them, but I think too much ignorance could have bad implications because if the public don't support strike action it might give dangerous precedents to eroding worker's rights by future Tory governments.

 

[WiredUp]

Network Rail member of staff in peace.

Let me be very clear to all contributors, I fully support the strike and as do 95% of my colleagues.

I hear from my union rep the major sticking point is Network Rail wanting to change T&Cs.
The most alarming, all current staff contracts to increase from 35 hours to 40 hours.
New starters to be on a 44 hour contract.

This is in addition to Saturday night/Sunday working to be part of a normal roster or for management staff on a salary; they would be told to work a Saturday night for a lieu day in the week at the companies convenience.

Network Rail have refused to change their approach on working hours T&Cs.

I can tell you now from a survey of my workplace today (I work in works delivery which is the internal track delivery teams that sit outside maintenance but not part of the renewals contract or major projects, we do all the jobs to big for maintenance but too small or niche for the big contractors)
There is 100% support to oppose a change to working hours including those staff who are not unionised and do not wish to strike or support the strike.
Even our senior manager who is a band 3 stated he would leave before he ever signed a contract to do 5 more hours a week for no extra pay.

I do not enjoy my job any more, the rail industry is a depressing place to work it has been for a few years now and it’s only getting worse.

I love the railway but I don’t love Network Rail, the people running the show are not friends of the railway nor enthusiastic about its future; they are in many ways the problem or a part of the problem.

I will update the forum when we get more info from our union rep.

Clive.

Is that to avoid paying O/T for managerial staff then working weekends?

 

[dakta]

I mean this was the most relevant thread for the subject matter so I opted to post it here seeing as it concerns the current strike action as well as rail strikes as a concept. That said nobody's opinions are excluded, I was just interested in particular in those who worked in the industry or even those who know more about it than I do.


Of course, and I am open to discussing the idea of running the services without collecting revenue, and of course I don't rely on the railway to get to work so I'm not really affected by them, but I think too much ignorance could have bad implications because if the public don't support strike action it might give dangerous precedents to eroding worker's rights by future Tory governments.

Wasn't having a go you might even find what you're looking for but you'll just have to treat it like a pub - you're going to hear it all!

 

[Sorcerer]

Wasn't having a go you might even find what you're looking for but you'll just have to treat it like a pub - you're going to hear it all!

Of course, no harm done. I just hope that if it is like a pub that the thread doesn't erupt into a full on bar brawl. I trust everyone is more mature than that though thankfully.

 

[Ashley Hill]

If by modernisation they mean mass rollout of DOO, how likely is it that any agreement offering 5 percent, that, some posters are referencing, would ever be accepted?

It will be interesting to see what kind of carrot is waved under ASLEFs nose on that one.
When I started it was a 40hr week and then 37. This was then reduced to 35 with all talk of fatigue limitation etc. By increasing the working hours would this make the fatigue index a joke?
With Fred Kite Mick Lynch threatening strike action for months is he playing into the Govts hands like the Southern dispute? Workers can’t afford to strike indefinitely and is this what Shapps is after?

 

[Hellzapoppin]

Network Rail member of staff in peace.


Is that to avoid paying O/T for managerial staff then working weekends?

Most managers don't get overtime anyway. The contract says you are expected to work the hours required to do the job. I worked 13 Saturday nights on the trot for time off but that's part of the job.

 

[Dan G]

So I might be going on somewhat of a tangent here, especially seeing as I've not really kept up with the discussion that much, but does anyone else find the level of ignorance surrounding these strikes frustrating? If you were to go into a typical YouTube comment section you will find a lot of people suggesting that all railway workers striking either get sacked or that they can't wait for automation to make them redundant. I think it's been made clear that drivers aren't the ones striking (at least not all of them) so even though automation of the National Rail network is an irrelevant and unrealistic idea point anyway it kind of shows a great deal of ignorance on the issue itself.

Besides which, why is the fact drivers get highly paid somehow a bad thing and not the fact everyone else is grossly underpaid? I've seen comments suggesting the money go to the NHS staff instead even though firstly, it's not a zero sum game nor is it a race to the bottom, and secondly that they didn't seem to care that much when the junior doctors went on strike a few years ago. The fact is most railway workers aren't so highly paid and the fact some of them are shouldn't make it a race to the bottom and that they should just be quiet about it. The idea of striking is kind of easier said than done for some industries but it's sometimes the only way for workers to get their fair dues.

I know it sounds like I'm just pointlessly ranting but I wanted to know what those who worked on the railway actually made of such ignorance that even Piers Morgan is rambling about it on his show (on a side note, that's how you decide a stance on this issue. See where he stands and take the opposite side ). Does the ignorance surrounding the current strikes and the idea of striking frustrate you as an industry insider as much as it does an outsider like myself?

Here here. I think the RMT are doing a poor job of articulating their concerns. If it was stated as (among other things):

* 2,500 maintenance jobs going, with obvious safety implications
* Being asked to work 5 more hours a week with no extra pay
* No longer being paid an allowance for working Saturday nights and Sunday
* Just a 3% pay increase if staff do accept all that

I think the public the public would be very sympathetic (though I think most are anyway).

Edit: typo

 

[Edsmith]

Yes, as I said in my post. That doesn't the people doing the sharing on social media (or here) should be applauded. Anyone with a genuine concern should report it directly to the company involved. Posting it on a forum and identifying the specific train suggests that there's a certain schadenfreude and/or public shaming going on that I find bleak and depressing.


Unfortunately there's a great deal of it in this very

It's pretty much the norm nowadays that anything unusual ends up on social media, the guard has got only himself to blame for any repercussions.

 

[Bluejays]

That sounds awfully like the position of not wanting to report a member of dispatch staff who gives the tip against the red. You might think you're doing them a favour by keeping quiet but are you really...?

It's nothing like that situation whatsoever.

Don't indulge yourself. There is nothing to see here. There should be a separate thread for those of us who actually work on the railway.

Don't indulge myself ? It's well known that lots of people from within the industry read this board.

Why would you want an echo chamber ? I find it quite useful to have a broad range of opinions.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Network Rail member of staff in peace.
Let me be very clear to all contributors, I fully support the strike and as do 95% of my colleagues.

I do not enjoy my job any more, the rail industry is a depressing place to work it has been for a few years now and it’s only getting worse.

I love the railway but I don’t love Network Rail, the people running the show are not friends of the railway nor enthusiastic about its future; they are in many ways the problem or a part of the problem.

I will update the forum when we get more info from our union rep.

Clive.

If this is replicated then the railways really are in a fight for survival. A 10% pay rise is not going to solve this.

Existential crisis.

 

[Facing Back]

The problem is that the unprofessional behaviour is often the opposite.

If a member of platform staff gives me a bat on the red. I should immediately report this. That is the correct professional response. In reality, I tend to give the staff member a quick *ahem* and point to the signal. No harm, no foul, it's an easy mistake.

If it's someone you may dislike for whatever reason. You do the professional thing, and report them.

One of the reasons why "work to rule" can be so effective is that we let things slide on many occasions and generally go above and beyond.

We work in an industry where you can literally refuse 1 minute over your time. The professional decision is to say no.

There are certain resource managers who I never do anything for but some of the others I'll go out my way to help.

It would be difficult to prove bullying because sometimes you would be reporting people for doing their job.

I'm 3 days behind on this thread and trying to catch up so sorry if this is covered elsewhere.

Thanks for this post. I'm trying to get a better understanding of the mindsets of what seems to be an increasing polar debate but this is helpful.

To me, and I suspect to a number of people, the going above and beyond is the normal way of working and should be. Should it be enshrined in a contract? Quite possibly if work to rule is a constant theme and it is stymying flexibility or productivity - I've always believed in the concept of reasonableness.

It is not possible to cover every eventually in a contract and it is counter-productive to try. Many contracts contain clauses around reasonable change and flexibility. They don't state give and take but if it is all one way then one side will rightly get grumpy.

I don't agree that the professional decision is to say no when you are 1 minute over your time, perhaps my views are different because of the profession I work in, but you've made me think. I don't really agree that you should discriminate against someone you don't like - but if a resource manager is all take and no give, then I can see why you would want to give less freely.

 

[jayah]

So - as I mentioned before - will you be having words with the NHS and all the other industries who routinely do 12hr shifts? Why do you think Hidden is outdated? Do you have any empirical evidence to prove this?

Personally I prefer 8hr weekdays and 12h weekends, but some rail staff swear by 12h days. You can’t force people to work just how you want to.

12hr shifts either mean you have the staff to fill the roster or the staff are putting days off above their at work performance.

RSSB T059 says best practice is night shifts be limited to 10hrs and early starts to 8hrs.

I also read something suggesting driving in the 12th hour wasn't allowed either.

We know why staff prefer long shifts, but hiding behind other examples of bad practice won't cut it.

You can of course force people to do things by making it a requirement, just like smoking in the workplace and a lot of other things people said would never happen.

 

[Frankfurt]

I'm well behind and can't be bothered to try and even catch up, but has anyone seen the document floating about, titled "2022 pay offer to the RMT". Jesus Christ it's grim.

 

[jayah]

They are still productive and have full diagrams of work.

In which case there is no issue.

The problem is when there is a crisis, trains cannot run and 400yrds away qualified staff are doing nothing, either because of intransigence or a lack of skills, you choose.

 

[peteb]

So, it seems WM trains has cancelled all Worcester trains to New St or Snow Hill on the two between strike days! Why? This decision punishes the public as much as the strike days do. Is it a political tactic to make the strike seem longer and more disruptive than it actually is? Thus turning the public against the strikers? These folk are highly trained, some with specific route knowledge etc, the railway companies can't just draft in agency staff to replace them.

 

[The Planner]

Network Rail member of staff in peace.
Let me be very clear to all contributors, I fully support the strike and as do 95% of my colleagues.

I hear from my union rep the major sticking point is Network Rail wanting to change T&Cs.
The most alarming, all current staff contracts to increase from 35 hours to 40 hours.
New starters to be on a 44 hour contract.

This is in addition to Saturday night/Sunday working to be part of a normal roster or for management staff on a salary; they would be told to work a Saturday night for a lieu day in the week at the companies convenience.

Network Rail have refused to change their approach on working hours T&Cs.

I can tell you now from a survey of my workplace today (I work in works delivery which is the internal track delivery teams that sit outside maintenance but not part of the renewals contract or major projects, we do all the jobs to big for maintenance but too small or niche for the big contractors)
There is 100% support to oppose a change to working hours including those staff who are not unionised and do not wish to strike or support the strike.
Even our senior manager who is a band 3 stated he would leave before he ever signed a contract to do 5 more hours a week for no extra pay.

I do not enjoy my job any more, the rail industry is a depressing place to work it has been for a few years now and it’s only getting worse.

I love the railway but I don’t love Network Rail, the people running the show are not friends of the railway nor enthusiastic about its future; they are in many ways the problem or a part of the problem.

I will update the forum when we get more info from our union rep.

Clive.

Presumably that, if real, is a proposal for maintenance.

 

[jayah]

Not least, as an ECML user, I would be pretty hacked off if the King's Cross S&T team were called to a WCML incident, and as a result unable to deal with something 10 minutes later on the ECML.

You are probably in a minority of one.

King's Cross is closed, passengers are being told to wheel their cases to Euston and the maintenance staff have their feet up.

The chances of Euston heading the same way the same day are probably one in a thousand.

If that happens, be it skills or intransigence it needs sorting.

Granted the taxpayer is contributing heavily but is not paying all the wages currently 2/3rds is coming from the passenger on operator revenue.

And given passenger numbers are still down on pre COVID, 100% of any additional pay rises are either fares or taxes.

 

[theking]

Good luck to all the rail staff tomorrow.

I hope the walk out is rock solid, about time someone stood up to this corrupt lying Tory government.

 

[Toby268]

I'm well behind and can't be bothered to try and even catch up, but has anyone seen the document floating about, titled "2022 pay offer to the RMT". Jesus Christ it's grim.

Where can this be found?

 

[baz962]

You are probably in a minority of one.

King's Cross is closed, passengers are being told to wheel their cases to Euston and the maintenance staff have their feet up.

The chances of Euston heading the same way the same day are probably one in a thousand.

If that happens, be it skills or intransigence it needs sorting.

Thing is though when that one in a thousand event happens and you have no one available , no one understands or cares on the public side . The shouts of the railway is useless , why can't you sort it , what do you mean you have no one because they got called elsewhere. You would moan whatever.

 

[Frankfurt]

Where can this be found?

I'll happily copy and paste it on here or DM you it

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

You are probably in a minority of one.

King's Cross is closed, passengers are being told to wheel their cases to Euston and the maintenance staff have their feet up.

The chances of Euston heading the same way the same day are probably one in a thousand.

If that happens, be it skills or intransigence it needs sorting.


And given passenger numbers are still down on pre COVID, 100% of any additional pay rises are either fares or taxes.

Its not as simple as that S&T faulting cover have to know there patch 100's of track circuits, point machines, signals and location cases where they are the type of kit in them to both to allow quick diagnosis of the fault and fixing it as well as keeping themselves safe while the signallers attempt to work around the issues. Whats needed is sufficient faulting cover and these teams already do routine mtce checks if they aren't on a fault to keep productoive.

 

[Toby268]

I'll happily copy and paste it on here or DM you it

Either or would be great thanks.

 

[HST274]

I'll happily copy and paste it on here or DM you it

I would like to this too if possible. DM or just copy pasted to here is fine...

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

And given passenger numbers are still down on pre COVID, 100% of any additional pay rises are either fares or taxes.

Correct but doesn't all have to fall back on the public purse unlike majority of public sector workers like teachers, NHS etc no income streams

 

[Domh245]

The chances of Euston heading the same way the same day are probably one in a thousand.

So at least once every less-than-3 years?