Rail travel - a luxury?

[Ianno87]

I would have more sympathy if there weren't so many examples of a train packed to the rafters in standard whilst only half full in first. I've seen this happen a lot on the TPE trains, perhaps in such a situation it should be mandatory for the guard to open up first/declassify and let all passengers use all available space on the train.

Keep doing that and you can wave bye-bye to First Class revenue. Who would buy a First Class ticket if it's routinely opened up to Standard Class passengers?

Quite so. In the Cambridge example the passenger can still buy individual single tickets, on a graduated scale by stages, if they want to.

Yes, the tiers are basically:
-£1 (for City Centre - Station - Addenbrooke's journeys only)
-£2.80 for a "into city" journey from roughly the town area
-£3.30 for a longer or "cross-city" journey

 

[Philip]

Keep doing that and you can wave bye-bye to First Class revenue. Who would buy a First Class ticket if it's routinely opened up to Standard Class passengers?

Then perhaps the TOC or whoever should think about only offering standard fares on the trains which are regularly overcrowded in standard.

 

[Ianno87]

Then perhaps the TOC or whoever should think about only offering standard fares on the trains which are regularly overcrowded in standard.

...then you definitely won't get any First Class revenue!

 

[Purple Orange]

As another poster put it Philip "In your opinion."

I rarely contribute but read with interest many of these threads debating such things. I have made many choices in my life, as I am sure those who would like me to "climb down off my horse" have made their choices - I work long hours and have sacrificed other things in my life for my career as has my wife - completely our choice. We don't particularly spend a fortune on technology or designer clothing for example (I personally see many things today as technology for the sake of technology but again that's down to individual choice and not for me to tell others to "climb down off their horses"). I personally do however derive my own personal satisfaction/pleasure through travel and rarely do I not travel first class on a train or business class when I fly - absolutely MY choice.

So FWIW it's all about choice in life not about the need to climb on or off horses.

All that said, I do agree with the sentiment that rail travel should be available for all - and it is noticeable in this debate that the most commonly mentioned TOC is CrossCountry - many would agree that many of their fares are eye watering in comparison to others and that split ticketing has particularly taken off since Arriva took XC. But (again my opinion) the root cause of this is not a first class carriage - it is the short stock that was ordered for this route shortly after privatisation and the bid that Arriva made for the franchise. Now I could well be wrong here and I stand to be corrected, but I think InterCity Cross Country was not seen as the financially strongest of the former BR InterCity operations and there was a desire when it was re-franchised to make it more financially viable and hence Arriva's submission - however as I say I stand to be corrected on that.

Yes it is all about personal choice and nobody should feel the need to justify their choices, especially to a bunch of strangers on a rail forum. Many of us work hard and value our careers, seeking to always to strike that right balance between home life & work. Yet in my opinion, the issue with TOC service provision between standard and 1st, is not that 1st class exists, but I don’t think they strike the right balance or quality of service.

• Too few standard class carriages on many routes.
  • E.g. if XC doubled up all their trains, there would be 2 first class carriages, which I think is an over-provision for XC. They would carry 348 standard class seats plus 52 first class, but if a 5-car train was extended to 7-car, it would carry 360 standard class seats plus 26 first class. TPE should do the same.​
• Despite improvements, WiFi connectivity is not as good as it needs to be.
• Catering on long distance services is good enough on some, but rubbish on others.
  • A trolley is fine on 3-car trains, and a shop works well on Avanti and LNER etc. I think Cross Country would be all the better for it, if it too went back to having an on-board shop, but it needs longer trains. TPE could benefit from it too, but only on their Nova 1 & 2 fleet. The 185s are too small and the Nova 3s could work, but I think they cover too small a geography.​
• 1st class in itself doesn’t feel like great value to me.
  • I’ve never enjoyed the food, and while a bit more space and a glass of wine is welcome, I never come away feeling like I’ve benefitted much. If there was no first class, I wouldn’t feel like much has been lost.​

 

[RT4038]

I would have more sympathy if there weren't so many examples of a train packed to the rafters in standard whilst only half full in first. I've seen this happen a lot on the TPE trains, perhaps in such a situation it should be mandatory for the guard to open up first/declassify and let all passengers use all available space on the train.

First Class has its advantages and when there is plenty of space on the whole train, then yes it is a nice thing to have. But it has no place on trains which are over capacity in standard.

Of course Standard class passengers would like to get First Class comfort without paying any extra.

Why would a train company want to do that - surely this would remove incentive to pay the extra for First Class tickets.? A system of compulsory reservation would avoid overcrowding in Standard Class.

 

[Purple Orange]

Of course Standard class passengers would like to get First Class comfort without paying any extra.

Why would a train company want to do that - surely this would remove incentive to pay the extra for First Class tickets.? A system of compulsory reservation would avoid overcrowding in Standard Class.

Everyone likes free things - even first class passengers. I think the novelty would soon wear off after tasting the quality of the food.

 

[Philip]

I think it's important to remember the railway is a public service, not a business. So in cases of lost first class revenue to help with overcrowded trains, the government should fund the difference.

 

[43096]

I think it's important to remember the railway is a public service, not a business. So in cases of lost first class revenue to help with overcrowded trains, the government should fund the difference.

No, it’s a business, and always has been.

More magic money tree funding, I see.

 

[nlogax]

I think it's important to remember the railway is a public service, not a business. So in cases of lost first class revenue to help with overcrowded trains, the government should fund the difference.

It's a business. There's no bottomless pit of cash that indicates otherwise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lots of non-regular bus users are put off by not knowing what the fare is in advance. Having a headline and relatively memorable "day ticket" price (e.g. that you can stick on the side of the bus) overcomes this.

To be honest, they could (and should) do the same with single fares, there is no need for them to be so obscure. In small towns a flat fare would be fine, in larger ones two steps would mostly work - "short hop" of maybe 5 stops or everything else.

Generally the day ticket prices are quite low, so unless you're genuinely doing a one-way journey they are relevant to most people. Which is good, as they might result in marginal extra journeys, reducing car use.

 

[RT4038]

I think it's important to remember the railway is a public service, not a business. So in cases of lost first class revenue to help with overcrowded trains, the government should fund the difference.

It is a business. Take a look at the 'public service' trains of Mumbai (Bombay) or Metrorail in Johannesburg or Cape Town to see what conditions are like when a subsidised public service ethos prevails. Our Government is not going to open-endedly fund the railways to some kind of mythical peak time comfort level.

If you can't afford to travel in the First Class carriages, rather than getting green with envy, just pretend that they are not there. There are many things in life that I can't afford, but if I could would make my life easier and more comfortable. That doesn't mean that I can just go and grab them from someone else.

I am not sure that these peaks of overcrowding are going to continue post covid anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

• 1st class in itself doesn’t feel like great value to me.
  • I’ve never enjoyed the food, and while a bit more space and a glass of wine is welcome, I never come away feeling like I’ve benefitted much. If there was no first class, I wouldn’t feel like much has been lost.​

Then 1st isn't intended for you, so don't use it. Those who use it think it is worth paying for. It's like "speedy boarding" on planes and the likes - it's a way of getting more money from those who will pay more, while not scaring away those who are budget-conscious.

 

[Philip]

It is a business. Take a look at the 'public service' trains of Mumbai (Bombay) or Metrorail in Johannesburg or Cape Town to see what conditions are like when a subsidised public service ethos prevails. Our Government is not going to open-endedly fund the railways to some kind of mythical peak time comfort level.

If you can't afford to travel in the First Class carriages, rather than getting green with envy, just pretend that they are not there. There are many things in life that I can't afford, but if I could would make my life easier and more comfortable. That doesn't mean that I can just go and grab them from someone else.

I am not sure that these peaks of overcrowding are going to continue post covid anyway.

No envy from me, I just think the railway should look at prioritising the needs of the majority of passengers in the situations I've given above, rather than prioritising first class revenue.

 

[Purple Orange]

Then 1st isn't intended for you, so don't use it. Those who use it think it is worth paying for. It's like "speedy boarding" on planes and the likes - it's a way of getting more money from those who will pay more, while not scaring away those who are budget-conscious.

Yes, that’s the point I was making in my post. Agreeing with @GB71 that there are other issues that are the nub of the problem.

 

[RT4038]

To be honest, they could (and should) do the same with single fares, there is no need for them to be so obscure. In small towns a flat fare would be fine, in larger ones two steps would mostly work - "short hop" of maybe 5 stops or everything else.

Generally the day ticket prices are quite low, so unless you're genuinely doing a one-way journey they are relevant to most people. Which is good, as they might result in marginal extra journeys, reducing car use.

It is probably just not worth the hassle for the bus company, in the inevitable howls of protest that such a change would produce.

The proposed 5 stop fare would create many, many anomolies, and the administration of turning every stop into a fare stage would be quite onerous. Not saying it couldn't be done, but is it really worth it? The day ticket seems a good compromise - simple return fare, but a finer single fare system for those who need it.

No envy from me, I just think the railway should look at prioritising the needs of the majority of passengers in the situations I've given above, rather than prioritising first class revenue.

If those passengers want a better product, they can travel at a different time for the same price, or buy a First Class ticket and travel at their preferred time. These sorts of financial/quality choices are being made across society all of the time.

 

[CBlue]

But most people want to just go somewhere and come back, rather than travelling around on buses all day, so it really is a scam.

Plus what's to stop them offering both a return fare and a day ranger.

At one point Stagecoach Cambridge (local operator) offered both returns and day tickets.

Day tickets were cheaper in every circumstance so drivers got in the habit of issuing them over standard returns. It's not a scam.

 

[Purple Orange]

Does anyone actually know how much more revenue a TOC generates from 1st class compared to standard class? By which I mean actual reported numbers.

Coach L on a 9-car LNER Azuma has 58 1st class seats. The standard class carriages have 88 seats. LNER take the decision to price their tickets accordingly and they also have the ability to choose what proportion of a train should be standard or first class.

If I am working in London I would usually travel in the off-peak during working hours, work on the train on the way down, stay overnight and return during working hours the next day or return in the off-peak evening on the same day. Looking at the Leeds-London route, a return ticket tomorrow costs £57.50 each way in Standard on the 10:15 am service, returning on the 19:33 service. In 1st class, the price is £90.50 and £72.50 respectively on those trains.

Assuming all 88 and 58 seats are filled, the first class carriage brings in £9,454, while standard class carriage brings in £10,120. Now within that, there will be a proportion of advance fairs in both carriages, perhaps more likely in 1st.

Clearly, peak 1st class travel is subsidising off-peak 1st class. However rather than assumptions, is there any reported sales figures anywhere?

 

[yorksrob]

I think you are just arguing for the sake of it - all over this forum there are complaints that bus ticketing is too complicated, and that passengers are disadvantaged when they have to change buses. When the bus company tries to simplify the system (a simple one price day ticket being a de facto return including free transfer, plus the bonus of additional journeys on that day if you really want them) you allege that it is a scam.



That is what happens when fare structures are simplified. Win some, lose some.

You're just arguing for the sake of it.

If I go into the town on the bus for shopping, I have to pay £5 for a day saver. That seems too much for the distance.

I like the fact that you can get a day saver. Here's a radical thought - if we're so into simplification, why not make it across bus companies ?

But that's no reason not to offer a reasonably priced return.

I expect that the same people arguing not to have returns on the buses, are the same people who argue against decent priced walk-on fares on the railway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You're just arguing for the sake of it.

If I go into the town on the bus for shopping, I have to pay £5 for a day saver. That seems too much for the distance.

What is the single fare? Remember that bus companies generally don't offer return fare discounts, or where they do it's a few pence off, so a return ticket is often just for convenience. Bus companies, unlike TOCs, don't overprice single fares to the same extent.

 

[Bald Rick]

I would have more sympathy if there weren't so many examples of a train packed to the rafters in standard whilst only half full in first. I've seen this happen a lot on the TPE trains, perhaps in such a situation it should be mandatory for the guard to open up first/declassify and let all passengers use all available space on the train. This declassifying happens only from time to time in my experience, not every time standard is full.

Example. You are a Train Manager on a TPE service departing Manchester Victoria bound for Newcastle. Standard is full. First class nearly empty (a rare event in my experience, but lets go with it). You declassify first class, and fill it with standard passengers.

At Huddersfield, 10 first class passengers board. What do you do?

I think it's important to remember the railway is a public service, not a business.

It is both. Like bus companies, airlines, water companies, power companies, supermarkets...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Example. You are a Train Manager on a TPE service departing Manchester Victoria bound for Newcastle. Standard is full. First class nearly empty (a rare event in my experience, but lets go with it). You declassify first class, and fill it with standard passengers.

At Huddersfield, 10 first class passengers board. What do you do?

What you would do if that happened is to endorse their tickets for a partial refund.

In practice, though, this is much easier for a London based TOC to do. If you consider a TOC like LNR who always seem very quick to declassify, they'll wait until just after departure from Euston (where practically everyone boards) then announce it. A multi-centric TOC like TPE can't as readily do that.

 

[Clip]

What is the single fare? Remember that bus companies generally don't offer return fare discounts, or where they do it's a few pence off, so a return ticket is often just for convenience. Bus companies, unlike TOCs, don't overprice single fares to the same extent.

Of course they dont

 

[Essexman]

I don't consider that rail travel per se is a luxury but if I am able to pay the extra to travel First Class then I cosndier it is, even if the service isn't much more than Standard.

Where possible I like my journey to be enjoyable - more than just a means of getting from A to B. Hence I will travel First Class if I can afford it, I will buy a meal on the train (and choose trains where this is available), pick an interesting route or rolling stock and if possible travel at a quieter time. However sadly with the many less comfortable new trains and reduced catering the number of journeys that are pleasurable is reducing.

 

[RT4038]

You're just arguing for the sake of it.

If I go into the town on the bus for shopping, I have to pay £5 for a day saver. That seems too much for the distance.

I like the fact that you can get a day saver. Here's a radical thought - if we're so into simplification, why not make it across bus companies ?

But that's no reason not to offer a reasonably priced return.

I expect that the same people arguing not to have returns on the buses, are the same people who argue against decent priced walk-on fares on the railway.

If the day ticket is too expensive, then buy separate single tickets for the journey into town and back.

Interavailability of tickets across bus companies has been discussed umpteen times on this forum, and the reasons why this is not so simple (or desirable) to implement.

 

[Mag_seven]

Can we please stick to discussing rail in this thread please.

If anyone wants to discuss bus fares then they are welcome start a new thread in the Buses and Coaches section

Thanks.

 

[coppercapped]

I think it's important to remember the railway is a public service, not a business. So in cases of lost first class revenue to help with overcrowded trains, the government should fund the difference.

Do not confuse a 'service to the public' with a 'public service'.

In UK terms a 'service to the public' is what transport organisations do, together with Sainsbury's, Marks and Spencer, BT and your local corner shop - their services are paid for by the individual user.

A 'public service' is supplied or specified by the government and covers such services as health care, schools, or the police - these are funded by taxation.

It is clear that in the case of the railways in Britain the users' payments do not cover all the costs - but that still does not make them a 'public service'.

 

[Purple Orange]

Do not confuse a 'service to the public' with a 'public service'.

In UK terms a 'service to the public' is what transport organisations do, together with Sainsbury's, Marks and Spencer, BT and your local corner shop - their services are paid for by the individual user.

A 'public service' is supplied or specified by the government and covers such services as health care, schools, or the police - these are funded by taxation.

It is clear that in the case of the railways in Britain the users' payments do not cover all the costs - but that still does not make them a 'public service'.

In terms of ‘public service’ or ‘service to the public’, we also need to consider the railway as a tool to keep the economy moving. It is a vehicle to enable private businesses to make money using its most important asset: people. Therefore while the tax payer needs to provide funding to the rail industry, the rail industry provides the human capital to facilitate business operations, which in turn provides tax revenue back to the treasury.

As I see it, funding of the railways is one side of the triangle. The beneficiaries are not just TOCS and passengers, but businesses up and down the country.

 

[Ianno87]

In terms of ‘public service’ or ‘service to the public’, we also need to consider the railway as a tool to keep the economy moving. It is a vehicle to enable private businesses to make money using its most important asset: people. Therefore while the tax payer needs to provide funding to the rail industry, the rail industry provides the human capital to facilitate business operations, which in turn provides tax revenue back to the treasury.

As I see it, funding of the railways is one side of the triangle. The beneficiaries are not just TOCS and passengers, but businesses up and down the country.

And business who pay to send their employees via rail receive business benefits from doing so. The benefit to the company of somebody making a business journey outweighs the cost of the ticket (otherwise you wouldn't be travelling). Which for some lines of work will outweigh the cost of the first class ticket, by some margin.

 

[Philip]

Example. You are a Train Manager on a TPE service departing Manchester Victoria bound for Newcastle. Standard is full. First class nearly empty (a rare event in my experience, but lets go with it). You declassify first class, and fill it with standard passengers.

At Huddersfield, 10 first class passengers board. What do you do?



It is both. Like bus companies, airlines, water companies, power companies, supermarkets...

That situation is why TOCs should look at permanently removing first class tickets on certain services and opening up the whole train to standard fares. It is a way to ease overcrowding and is more important than getting a bit of extra revenue by having first class fares on sale.

 

[Ianno87]

That situation is why TOCs should look at permanently removing first class tickets on certain services and opening up the whole train to standard fares. It is a way to ease overcrowding and is more important than getting a bit of extra revenue by having first class fares on sale.

Or you could address overcrowding *and* make more revenue by keeping first class and charging more for standard class.

How much of TPE's crowding is caused by cheapo PTE tickets, I wonder?