Rail travel - a luxury?

[Ianno87]

And for those who don't use Apps?

Learn to use one.

 

[Purple Orange]

I don't think there is a bottomless pit, that is obvious, but saying when someone has a suggestion a.k.a, removing first class on particularly overcrowded services to relieve shorter term congestion is ridiculous and "money doesn't grow on trees" and all that is a bit silly.

I'm honestly not jealous of Gucci or private jets. I'm perfectly happy wearing Primark and flying in economy. What annoys me, is after the 20th time of barely squeezing on a train home, after it has been delayed through a congested rail corridor for 30 minutes is to then have people turn round and call investment & solutions into resolving said issues "crazy" and "not financially reasonable", "money doesn't grow on trees", especially when the donors to those politicians turn round to go fly on a private jet.

Now, I don't buy into arguments of "they have wealth - therefore they are taking from me", I think the pie can grow for everyone. The rich can get richer, and the poor can also get richer. However, when these people come out with arguments of austerity and scarcity, I am more than willing to point out the hypocrisy of said arguments. If there are only so many resources and we must "sacrifice" to the magical economy fairies in order for them to judge us fairly, then the people telling us that should also be willing to make cuts too.

Well said. It plays from that awful phrase ‘the politics of envy’. It’s purpose is only there to ensure that it is harder to make any positive changes for wider society. However, relating it back to 1st class & standard class, it’s not about jealousy or envy, but rather a question of whether 1st class or catering is even worth having on particular services, just like there is a question of whether certain services are better suited to having 3+2 seating or doors at 1/3 & 2/3.

Take Avanti as an example. Looking purely at standard class, their trains are either 6 or 7 car trains. Is that enough carriage space for the number of people that could use that service in standard? From a 1st class perspective, their trains are either 3 or 4 car trains. Is that too much space given over to 1st class or should it be more?

If we look at TPE Nova fleet, they are running 4-car trains from a standard class perspective. Is that enough capacity on their routes? They have one 1st class carriage on each train. Is that enough?

Is a 1st class ticket even worth paying for on some trains? In some cases it might be, in others maybe not. For example, there have been times when I’ve been travelling from London to Manchester in 1st and I’ve been thinking I’d rather have something from the on-board shop or brought something of my choosing on the the train to eat and drink, rather than the catering provided in 1st class.

 

[Jozhua]

That reducing number can be catered for by station ticket machines, manned offices at principal stations or by telesales.



Quite. Improving technology and programs should mean the making or transferring reservations , both by the passenger and the TOC during disruption, easier and reliable.

Learn to use one.

I disagree in regards to compulsory reservations. They do nothing to increase the capacity of said service, in fact working to reduce the capacity of it. Cross Country practically forces passengers to make reservations, yet their trains are still overcrowded. Most people (myself included), will get on the train regardless of reservation or not, even if they tell you not to.

Plus, they increase the complexity and barriers in the way of people using the railways.

In regards to apps, in my experience most booking systems are pretty awful, ensuring compatibility with all phones is nigh impossible and frankly I'm looking into ways of reducing my reliance on my smartphone in order to do necessary things. The first time I brought an e-ticket, my phone died halfway through the journey. Never again...
In fact, I was out for a walk yesterday, in the middle of the countryside, somewhere I'd never been and my phone goes from 30% to dead. Fortunately I managed to ask around for directions in a nearby town and find my way back to the tram. Modern computers are absolutely shocking and useless, so finding new convoluted ways to compulsorily shove them into our lives seems a bit silly to me.

 

[greyman42]

Pre covid, the LNER trains out of Kings Cross in the evening peak always had a fair amount of "no shows" so with compulsory reservations, these seats would remain empty.

 

[nlogax]

In regards to apps, in my experience most booking systems are pretty awful, ensuring compatibility with all phones is nigh impossible and frankly I'm looking into ways of reducing my reliance on my smartphone in order to do necessary things. The first time I brought an e-ticket, my phone died halfway through the journey. Never again...

Have you an example of the compatibility issues to share? Unless you're rocking a version of Android or iOS that dates back to the stone age then it's hard to grasp where there'd be a problem.

 

[Ianno87]

Pre covid, the LNER trains out of Kings Cross in the evening peak always had a fair amount of "no shows" so with compulsory reservations, these seats would remain empty.

That logic doesn't work.

With an App based reservation, the on-train systems simply update, freeing up the seat for another reservation.

The pre-Covid practice of having to have a nominal reservation (that you ended up not using) for a flexible ticket and being able to freely board another train is what lead to the no shows.

 

[Darandio]

The first time I brought an e-ticket, my phone died halfway through the journey. Never again...
In fact, I was out for a walk yesterday, in the middle of the countryside, somewhere I'd never been and my phone goes from 30% to dead. Fortunately I managed to ask around for directions in a nearby town and find my way back to the tram. Modern computers are absolutely shocking and useless, so finding new convoluted ways to compulsorily shove them into our lives seems a bit silly to me.

It's clear you own faulty equipment, i'm not entirely sure what relevance that has to this.

 

[6Gman]

I disagree in regards to compulsory reservations. They do nothing to increase the capacity of said service, in fact working to reduce the capacity of it. Cross Country practically forces passengers to make reservations, yet their trains are still overcrowded. Most people (myself included), will get on the train regardless of reservation or not, even if they tell you not to.

Plus, they increase the complexity and barriers in the way of people using the railways.

In regards to apps, in my experience most booking systems are pretty awful, ensuring compatibility with all phones is nigh impossible and frankly I'm looking into ways of reducing my reliance on my smartphone in order to do necessary things. The first time I brought an e-ticket, my phone died halfway through the journey. Never again...
In fact, I was out for a walk yesterday, in the middle of the countryside, somewhere I'd never been and my phone goes from 30% to dead. Fortunately I managed to ask around for directions in a nearby town and find my way back to the tram. Modern computers are absolutely shocking and useless, so finding new convoluted ways to compulsorily shove them into our lives seems a bit silly to me.

I agree. And given that some people, for a variety of reasons, cannot use Apps it would be a rather crude and cruel way to tackle . . . well, to tackle what exactly?

My experience of the current electronic on-train systems with reservations either showing those for an earlier service or not at all makes the idea that somebody in, say, Oxenholme can use an i-phone (or whatever would be involved) to secure a place on a train thundering towards them somewhere on the outskirts of Penrith seems fanciful.

There seems to be an enthusiasm on this forum to look for tech solutions for a range of issues even where they may not be suitable or even practical.

That logic doesn't work.

With an App based reservation, the on-train systems simply update, freeing up the seat for another reservation.

The pre-Covid practice of having to have a nominal reservation (that you ended up not using) for a flexible ticket and being able to freely board another train is what lead to the no shows.

As I say, given the regular issues with the current systems, the word "simply" seems optimistic.

 

[greyman42]

With an App based reservation, the on-train systems simply update, freeing up the seat for another reservation.

Where does it get its information from that the person has not turned up?

 

[Ianno87]

Where does it get its information from that the person has not turned up?

When they amend their reservation to a later train when they realise they can't make it.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm against the enforced usage of modern frippery such as "apps".

I far prefer the counted place system of reservations where one can choose where to sit according to the circumstances at the time.

 

[al78]

It's clear you own faulty equipment, i'm not entirely sure what relevance that has to this.

I think it is suggesting that relying on electronic equipment alone is not the best idea, because electronic equipment can and does fail, and sods law says it will fail when you need to use it. This is why it is advised when hiking up a big hill in the Scottish highlands and the weather might deteriorate, take a map and compass with you and know how to use them, don't rely on a phone app or GPS.

I have had a mobile die on me, when during a walk in continuous rain, my jacket pocket eventually leaked water which got into the phone and killed it.

 

[Purple Orange]

Introducing anything that resembles the XC last min reservations is a bad idea. If I get on a XC service, sit in an unreserved seat and I’m unable to reserve due to lack of connectivity or no battery, then part way through someone claims they have reserved the seat, they can F-off. I was here first.

 

[RT4038]

I disagree in regards to compulsory reservations. They do nothing to increase the capacity of said service, in fact working to reduce the capacity of it. Cross Country practically forces passengers to make reservations, yet their trains are still overcrowded. Most people (myself included), will get on the train regardless of reservation or not, even if they tell you not to.

It probably does not make economic sense to provide capacity for the peaks - millions of pounds for carriages which will only see a couple of hours or so of use a few days per week. The point of compulsory reservations is that capacity is limited and passengers must avail themselves of the capacity which may not be exactly at the time they wish to travel. Works perfectly well on long distance coaches and aeroplanes.
Clearly there would have to be a system which prevented unreserved passengers from accessing the train.

HS2 would be a good starting point or such a system.

Whether this issue is a burning one post covid remain to be seen. I suspect not.

 

[6Gman]

When they amend their reservation to a later train when they realise they can't make it.

How soon before departure would the system "close down" to bookings? Would unreserved passengers be allowed to travel?

And - key question - what problem is this meant to solve?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite. Improving technology and programs should mean the making or transferring reservations , both by the passenger and the TOC during disruption, easier and reliable.

I'd go for a hybrid of having reserved and unreserved coaches, allowing a reservation to be obtained right up to (and potentially after) departure as (a) you wouldn't have to show them, and (b) nobody who doesn't have a reservation should sit in a reserved coach and thus can't argue when booted out.

And - key question - what problem is this meant to solve?

Overcrowding, by and large, which is unpleasant even if you have a reservation as it makes it difficult to move around the train.

 

[6Gman]

Overcrowding, by and large, which is unpleasant even if you have a reservation as it makes it difficult to move around the train.

You'll never get that past the TOCs and the DfT.

In the same way that Colmans made their profit from the mustard left on the plate rather than what was eaten the TOCs (and thus the DfT) make more money from 110% occupancy than from 100%.

 

[yorksrob]

In the same way that Colmans made their profit from the mustard left on the plate rather than what was eaten

As a great fan of Coleman's mustard, I find it hard to believe.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You'll never get that past the TOCs and the DfT.

In the same way that Colmans made their profit from the mustard left on the plate rather than what was eaten the TOCs (and thus the DfT) make more money from 110% occupancy than from 100%.

Therein lies a major issue with something like XC - the present (pre COVID) situation of disgraceful levels of overcrowding at most times a day were the least unremunerative (!) way of running the TOC. Because overcrowding isn't a safety issue, just unpleasant, it's hard to force it to be solved. Though TPE proved it could be resolved.

 

[Jozhua]

Have you an example of the compatibility issues to share? Unless you're rocking a version of Android or iOS that dates back to the stone age then it's hard to grasp where there'd be a problem.

It's clear you own faulty equipment, i'm not entirely sure what relevance that has to this.

I have a Galaxy S9 that I purchased brand new in 2018. It is running Android 10. I have had the battery replaced since purchasing it.

Point is, even the most modern high-tech smartphone turns to unreliable junk after a year or so. Plus, batteries just aren't cut out for what we're asking them to do, you can't rely on them to do everything.

I think it is suggesting that relying on electronic equipment alone is not the best idea, because electronic equipment can and does fail, and sods law says it will fail when you need to use it. This is why it is advised when hiking up a big hill in the Scottish highlands and the weather might deteriorate, take a map and compass with you and know how to use them, don't rely on a phone app or GPS.

I have had a mobile die on me, when during a walk in continuous rain, my jacket pocket eventually leaked water which got into the phone and killed it.

Exactly.

It probably does not make economic sense to provide capacity for the peaks - millions of pounds for carriages which will only see a couple of hours or so of use a few days per week. The point of compulsory reservations is that capacity is limited and passengers must avail themselves of the capacity which may not be exactly at the time they wish to travel. Works perfectly well on long distance coaches and aeroplanes.
Clearly there would have to be a system which prevented unreserved passengers from accessing the train.

HS2 would be a good starting point or such a system.

Whether this issue is a burning one post covid remain to be seen. I suspect not.

Yes. Ultimately there will be some overcrowding in the peaks, and that's fine. A few people stood up every morning isn't the end of the world. In fact, a fair number of trains are designed for this use case and systems like the Metrolink cater more for standing passengers than seated.

This is why I say we shouldn't have compulsory reservations - we just have to accept peak time overcrowding is a fact of life, and if people had to choose between standing on the train for 30 minutes, or waiting 30 minutes for the next train (where they will probably be standing anyway), then I'm sure most would choose to just get on the train. Plus, we need to be looking at driving modal shift, getting more people onto sustainable transport like trains. Artificially reducing capacity even lower than it is seems like a poor way to do that. Especially when you consider the possibility of reservations not arriving. Overbooking isn't possible without a check-in system, like that on planes.

When overcrowding becomes problematic is when it begins to restrict the movement through the train. Overcrowding is unacceptable if people need to physically leave to let others off, or more passengers cannot physically squeeze on, as is often the case in Manchester.

The other issue with this, is until HS2 arrives, our intercity services often serve as regional connections too. Take Derby - Chesterfield/Sheffield. There is no "local" service that does it, only EMR Intercity or Cross Country.

Therein lies a major issue with something like XC - the present (pre COVID) situation of disgraceful levels of overcrowding at most times a day were the least unremunerative (!) way of running the TOC. Because overcrowding isn't a safety issue, just unpleasant, it's hard to force it to be solved. Though TPE proved it could be resolved.

Exactly, the issue with XC is that overcrowding expands far past the peaks - it's chock all day. Plus XC is a very long distance operator, so standing for 5 hours is a little less palatable.

The answer is simple, provide a train length that is reasonable for the demand of the service being run. For Transpennine Express, that's about 5 carriages, for Cross Country that is 7/8. I've not been on a XC HST that has been so ridiculously overcrowded.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think you've got two basic types of service there (with some overlap). You can design for peak short distance overcrowding with layouts like the Thameslink 700s or perhaps the Class 345 layout with some bays and some longitudinal - and if I was replacing, say, Northern's Manchester area local service fleet I would be very much looking at doing that as money could be saved by going for slightly shorter trains while still accommodating the peak loadings (and people accept that sort of layout on the trams, with the new ones being much more European-style "standee trams" than the old ones). But InterCity journeys are not "a luxury" per the thread if you have to stand (or it's so packed you can't get to the loo and the trolley can't get through) - they are unpleasant and become a distress purchase.

 

[route101]

I'm against the enforced usage of modern frippery such as "apps".

I far prefer the counted place system of reservations where one can choose where to sit according to the circumstances at the time.

I prefer them too, but if not boarding at origin if its bound to be a busy service. I think Scotrail on their cheapest advances have moved to counted places and TPE since March.

 

[Robertj21a]

Deleted

 

[Bletchleyite]

I prefer them too, but if not boarding at origin if its bound to be a busy service. I think Scotrail on their cheapest advances have moved to counted places and TPE since March.

I don't like counted place Advances, as I have the stress of finding (or not) a suitable seat on a potentially busy service. My preference is for an actual reservation with seat selection, then I know my preferred seat is mine.

As for "modern fripperies like apps", you (generic) can choose not to use them but then by making that choice you are declining the convenient services they offer.

 

[Purple Orange]

On the topic of luxury rail travel, I am going to be travelling from Paris to Barcelona next year and will be taking the train. At over 6 hours, first class could prove to be rather welcome. As I understand, the only benefit you get for the price of a first class ticket is a wider seat.

Does anyone have any first hand experience of the difference between 1st and standard on the Paris-Barca TGV? Is it worth it?

I’m someone who is very sceptical of the benefits of first class travel in the UK, but then the journeys I make are mostly under 90 mins, and no more than 2 hours if I’m off down to London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

2+1 rather than 2+2, wider seat, quieter environment and usually not much of a markup. Definitely worth it, unlike the UK where the markup is normally bigger. Though be aware that TGVs don't have seats aligned fully to windows in either class.

 

[nlogax]

I have a Galaxy S9 that I purchased brand new in 2018. It is running Android 10. I have had the battery replaced since purchasing it.

Point is, even the most modern high-tech smartphone turns to unreliable junk after a year or so. Plus, batteries just aren't cut out for what we're asking them to do, you can't rely on them to do everything.

Either you have a specifically recalcitrant device or you're exaggerating. If you're having a problem using a phone you bought in 2018 then you should probably get it looked at. S9s are still worthy devices and will do everything that most users ask of them without issue, including ticketing apps.

As for "modern fripperies like apps", you (generic) can choose not to use them but then by making that choice you are declining the convenient services they offer.

This, very much. It's almost like there's a determination not to join the 21st century for some here. And that's fine - but certain (optional, non-essential) services are only available using apps and if people think that's unfair, tough.

 

[Purple Orange]

2+1 rather than 2+2, wider seat, quieter environment and usually not much of a markup. Definitely worth it, unlike the UK where the markup is normally bigger. Though be aware that TGVs don't have seats aligned fully to windows in either class.

Thanks. I did read that free WiFi was a part of the first class service, which I assume means it is not free in standard. 6 hours on a train with a child and an ipad without Internet connection may be a recipe for disaster! Might be worth bit for that alone.

 

[gallafent]

Point is, even the most modern high-tech smartphone turns to unreliable junk after a year or so.

(Apologies for off-topic) … hmm. That is counter to my experience (mostly of iPhones, but also more recently of a OnePlus). Battery replacement after maybe 3 years, on a heavily used (including car sat nav, and outdoor use on bike handlebar mount, as running tracker, including in bad weather, even when sailing, etc.) iPhone 7, makes it a completely useful reasonable device still at this point (it's nearly 4 years old). Likewise a more lightly used iPhone 6s of a family member, now 5 years old, is still completely fine — it could do with a battery replacement but it's not essential, and it's generally fine. Both happily run the most up-to-date version of the operating system (and thus all the current latest apps).

I guess it depends which device you pick and how you treat it!

 

[6Gman]

This, very much. It's almost like there's a determination not to join the 21st century for some here. And that's fine - but certain (optional, non-essential) services are only available using apps and if people think that's unfair, tough.

But the suggestion seems to be (though the details are unclear) that reservations would be compulsory for rail travel which is scarcely "non-essential" for many people. I use an app for a specific purpose but for rail travel I'd prefer to just get on the damned thing and if I have to stand, I'll stand. We also only have one i-phone in the family, so we cannot both use it if we are travelling separately.

I'm still wondering what problem this idea is meant to address?