Random questions you were afraid to ask

[scosutsut]

Was originally going to post my specific question but throwing it open as we all may learn something - who knows!

I think my question is in the infamous "rivet counter" category but it's something I've been meaning to ask for ages so here it goes... Wonky wipers...

I'm pretty sure there is a straight forward explanation for this, but in vehicles of yesteryear, and I'm talking early 1980s or earlier - Nationals, Alexander T and Y types etc it was completely normal to see the wipers on vehicles operating at completely different patterns and speeds to their neighbour.

For example I recall a TS type where for every full sweep the nearside wiper made, the offside one swept twice. And a Duple Dominant bus where they moved at roughly the same speed but not quite, so would get to the point where they would sweep together, and then drift apart until they ran opposite to each other, then going slowly back to in time again, and this repeated on and on.

You don't seem to see that sort of behaviour these days. Now all I know about wipers comes from (unsuccessfully) trying to fix a Ford Escort linkage that had sheared apart mid downpour on a motorway many years ago. Based on that I can only assume that on buses in the past they had independent motors powering each arm and no linkage between the arms hence they would switch on and off together but do their own thing in terms of sweep speed etc, whereas now they are physically connected to each other and hence always sweep in unison?

I guess I'm asking for an answer from someone in the know and also to see whatever other random questions this throws up!

 

[philthetube]

Buses tended to have split screens back then so no need to have coordinated wipers although some did, this had benefits and drawbacks, main benefit being that if one went defective it would not bring the other one down, main drawback being the unwiped gap in the middle of the screen which reduced drivers visibility, you could ask the same about cars except that the change was made much earlier.

 

[MotCO]

Split screens were often used to help reduce costs if a windscreen had to be replaced. I remember buses with pantographic wipers (blades were kept vertical by the geometry of the wiper arms) and they had separate switches for each, and therefore could be operated at different speeds.

 

[GusB]

Earlier Y-types sometimes had wipers mounted above the windscreen on the right and below on the left. This was certainly the case with most of the Y-types in my local fleet up until the last V- and Y-reg batches. I recall a very wet and cold journey to Peterhead depot open day on one of the old ARG-B AEC reliances (which had long since retired from the fleet) and its wipers appeared to be powered by air rather than an electric motor - going by the hissing noise they made that's what I'd assumed anyway.

It's really not a big issue in the grand scheme of things if the wipers don't work in sync, but I agree that for those who like things "just so" it can be a rather annoying

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe some buses, particularly older ones, did indeed have air powered wipers.

 

[Simon75]

How much does it cost to notifying the Traffic Commissioner to change/withdraw/new services
And modify/add/remove operating centres?

 

[Flange Squeal]

How much does it cost to notifying the Traffic Commissioner to change/withdraw/new services
And modify/add/remove operating centres?

For your typical bus company...

New service: £60
Modify service: £60
Cancel service: Free

New O licence: £209
Modify O licence: £122

In addition to this, operators have to show 'financial standing' for the number of discs they've been authorised.

First vehicle: £8,000
Additional vehicles: £4,450

So for example, an operator with five vehicles would need to show £25,800 is available. If they then applied for an increase in their authorisation for say two more vehicles to bring them up to seven, they'd need to show the business has access to £34,700 (£8,000 + six lots of £4,450) before the application is approved.

 

[scosutsut]

Very interesting @Flange Squeal - you said for a typical bus company, I take it the numbers scale according to size so a big group like Stagecoach or First for example would be looking at different numbers to say a one man band?

Also do private hire coaches require discs or just service vehicles?

 

[Deerfold]

Very interesting @Flange Squeal - you said for a typical bus company, I take it the numbers scale according to size so a big group like Stagecoach or First for example would be looking at different numbers to say a one man band?

Also do private hire coaches require discs or just service vehicles?

The figures given are for the vast majority of bus companies.

They're different for some 'community' / non-profit companies.

 

[Swanny200]

Earlier Y-types sometimes had wipers mounted above the windscreen on the right and below on the left. This was certainly the case with most of the Y-types in my local fleet up until the last V- and Y-reg batches. I recall a very wet and cold journey to Peterhead depot open day on one of the old ARG-B AEC reliances (which had long since retired from the fleet) and its wipers appeared to be powered by air rather than an electric motor - going by the hissing noise they made that's what I'd assumed anyway.

It's really not a big issue in the grand scheme of things if the wipers don't work in sync, but I agree that for those who like things "just so" it can be a rather annoying

I think Land Rover Defender wipers used to be powered by air too when they first came out, in terms of the split screen buses and coaches, did the Metroliners used to have a split wiper system, sure I saw one at Guild Street once in the snow with driver's side wiper working but the other not, driver didn't seem fazed by it as he moved the coach into the bay

 

[carlberry]

Also do private hire coaches require discs or just service vehicles?

Any vehicle that's used for 'hire and reward', so all coaches. If a company owned a heritage vehicle that it just used for display purposes this wouldnt need a disk, or vehicles that are off the road.

 

[scosutsut]

Any vehicle that's used for 'hire and reward', so all coaches. If a company owned a heritage vehicle that it just used for display purposes this wouldnt need a disk, or vehicles that are off the road.

Thanks! I suspected as much but wasn't sure

 

[Geordie driver]

I think Land Rover Defender wipers used to be powered by air too when they first came out, in terms of the split screen buses and coaches, did the Metroliners used to have a split wiper system, sure I saw one at Guild Street once in the snow with driver's side wiper working but the other not, driver didn't seem fazed by it as he moved the coach into the bay

Loads of vehicles used to have the wipers powered by the vaccume in the manifold, I recall my uncle's ford pop we used to take turns leaning out the window to operate them.

Once you have driven a vehicle with wipers operating separately it soon becomes the norm and you don't notice it. I would report a bus if the wipers didn't self park, fitters hated that.

Due to the vertical nature of bus windscreens they don't get anything like as blurry in rain as cars do. In winter it means no need to scrape frost off either.

 

[route101]

Remember the Glasgow Ailsa wipers going at different times.They come don from above too.

 

[Simon75]

Why is getting lost property back from the big companies, not as easy as year's.
You would usually ring the garage (if know), and they wood tell you.
Arriva for example (not London or Yorkshire tiger,) , you have to fill a form out and hope for a reply within 48 hours.

 

[Roilshead]

I think Land Rover Defender wipers used to be powered by air too when they first came out,

As Geordie Driver suggested these would have - if not electrically-powered - been vacuum driven from the engine manifold, air-powered wipers would have required the installation of a compressor (and that just wasn't a feature of the early Land Rovers).

Vacuum-driven wipers were notorious for slowing down when you slowed down (up-hill or in town), and then flailing about maniacally when you went down-hill as their function depended on engine speed.

Air driven wipers were common where air-brakes and direct-operation pneumocyclic gearboxes were fitted - if you've installed the extra weight of a compressor do do those functions (and BMMO reckoned that weight was equal to the vehicle carrying round one non-fare-paying passenger all day every day of its service life) then you might as well get it to do as much as it could . . . like operate the wipers and doors (after all it saves on the expense and replacement costs of installing separate electrical motors to do those jobs).

 

[GusB]

I think Land Rover Defender wipers used to be powered by air too when they first came out,

As Geordie Driver suggested these would have - if not electrically-powered - been vacuum driven from the engine manifold, air-powered wipers would have required the installation of a compressor (and that just wasn't a feature of the early Land Rovers).

Vacuum-driven wipers were notorious for slowing down when you slowed down (up-hill or in town), and then flailing about maniacally when you went down-hill as their function depended on engine speed.

Air driven wipers were common where air-brakes and direct-operation pneumocyclic gearboxes were fitted - if you've installed the extra weight of a compressor do do those functions (and BMMO reckoned that weight was equal to the vehicle carrying round one non-fare-paying passenger all day every day of its service life) then you might as well get it to do as much as it could . . . like operate the wipers and doors (after all it saves on the expense and replacement costs of installing separate electrical motors to do those jobs).

I think you're probably right about it being vacuum driven. The old AEC that I mentioned was one of an earlier batch that had vacuum brakes, and the wiper movement was very erratic (not ideal on a dreich summer's day in Peterheid!).

 

[Roger1973]

On the subject of Alexander Y types, yes on (at least) many the wipers were air operated.

I did my PSV training and test on an ex Western Scottish Leopard, and if I remember right, the offside wiper (mounted above the windscreen) was operated by a lever above the windscreen (that was slightly too far away to reach from a fully seated position) and the nearside wiper (mounted below the windscreen) was operated by turning a small tap on / off, so it was easy to turn one on full and the other to half speed.

 

[jp4712]

Both my buses are air-braked: the 1951 AEC has an electric wiper motor and the 1968 Bristol has two air motors, one for each half of the windscreen. The Bristol has just one wiper switch, which simply has levers to turn on the air to both motors. And they NEVER run at the same speed!

The advantage of an air motor is that you can open the valve just a little to get a slow wipe for light rain, or open the valve more for faster operation. The electric motor is just on or off, and early electric wipers didn’t have a ‘park’ function.

 

[philthetube]

Split screens were often used to help reduce costs if a windscreen had to be replaced. I remember buses with pantographic wipers (blades were kept vertical by the geometry of the wiper arms) and they had separate switches for each, and therefore could be operated at different speeds.

I believe some buses, particularly older ones, did indeed have air powered wipers.

Leyland National 1's had both split screens and air powered wipers, no individual switches though.
I seem to recall that on vehicles with seperate wiper switches the N/S wiper was rarely used.