Rarely used points and crossovers.

[Kentish Paul]

I have often wondered about these rarely used bits of track. I am mainly thinking about the emergency crossovers on HS1 and the crossovers in Stratford International. Are they tested every now and then to make sure all the relevant bits are still working?
I ask because the amount of rust on the railhead at most of the above means very little or no use.
Do the points of these crossovers have to be cycled every so often just to make sure they still work?

 

[Phil.]

It used to be a weekly thing for pointwork not normally used on a day-to-day basis. Perhaps it's the same nowadays. Someone will come along shortly to put us right.

 

[Harbornite]

The pointwork that connects each end of the Lifford curve lines to the Camp Hill and cross city lines isn't used much, there is a daily weekday XC ecs train but that doesn't run often, and a railtour used it a while back.

 

[Trog]

A colleague once went to measure up a crossover at St Pancras for relaying and found that the rails were old rust brown on top. So he rang the signal box and asked if they still needed it, the signalman assured him that it was needed, and sure enough when he came back a week later the rail heads were shiny.

 

[Deepgreen]

The quarry connection siding at Betchworth which used to lead to the narrow gauge network there surely hasn't been used since the 1960s (my guess) and is still extant (but heavily overgrown) for about 200 metres. The connecting points to the main line are still there, worked from the adjacent ground frame. I have no idea why it wasn't lifted long ago. There is also a trailing crossover worked by the ground frame and I don't think that has been used for many years either.

 

[Kentish Paul]

It used to be a weekly thing for pointwork not normally used on a day-to-day basis. Perhaps it's the same nowadays. Someone will come along shortly to put us right.

Thanks for that Phil. Noticed a few rusty trailing crossovers on the Berks & Hants last week. Couldn't tell if they were ground frame or signal box operated.
How is Penzance these days. Spent 30 years there and left in 1990.

 

[Ships]

The quarry connection siding at Betchworth which used to lead to the narrow gauge network there surely hasn't been used since the 1960s (my guess) and is still extant (but heavily overgrown) for about 200 metres. The connecting points to the main line are still there, worked from the adjacent ground frame. I have no idea why it wasn't lifted long ago. There is also a trailing crossover worked by the ground frame and I don't think that has been used for many years either.

If they're not failing and causing delays and the area hasn't been resignalled since then that could be why. There could be a connection agreement in place or the cross over could have been retained for operational flexibility

 

[Deepgreen]

If they're not failing and causing delays and the area hasn't been resignalled since then that could be why. There could be a connection agreement in place or the cross over could have been retained for operational flexibility

Indeed, but the crossover is never used because it requires someone to operate the ground frame. There have been several incidents along the route in the last few years when use of the crossover would have been very helpful in service terms, but every time it has been avoided for this reason. The same applies to the one at Gomshall, several miles further west on the line. Short of the line actually being severed by landslip or similar, and a staff member being stationed at the ground frame, I can't see it ever being used again.

 

[tsr]

Those ground frames are occasionally used by engineering trains entering or exiting possessions. They are also within the contingency planning for GWR services turning back during incidents blocking the line. I have a feeling the Gomshall ground frame has been used in the last year or two at least a couple of times by ECS. And when the footbridge at Shalford got severely damaged a couple of years back, TOC Control were drawing up plans to use the ground frame at Dorking West had the line not reopened. To give a couple of examples...

 

[Deepgreen]

Those ground frames are occasionally used by engineering trains entering or exiting possessions. They are also within the contingency planning for GWR services turning back during incidents blocking the line. I have a feeling the Gomshall ground frame has been used in the last year or two at least a couple of times by ECS. And when the footbridge at Shalford got severely damaged a couple of years back, TOC Control were drawing up plans to use the ground frame at Dorking West had the line not reopened. To give a couple of examples...

I think you could be right about Gomshall (it's not passed for passenger use anyway). Do you also happen to know when the Betchworth one was last used (and, indeed, the quarry siding)?

 

[Phil.]

Thanks for that Phil. Noticed a few rusty trailing crossovers on the Berks & Hants last week. Couldn't tell if they were ground frame or signal box operated.
How is Penzance these days. Spent 30 years there and left in 1990.

Penzance is wonderful thankyou. My luscious wife is a Penzance born maid - although her family hail from Newlyn. I always promised her that when the boys grew up and left and I retired we'd move here. So here we are.

 

[tsr]

I think you could be right about Gomshall (it's not passed for passenger use anyway). Do you also happen to know when the Betchworth one was last used (and, indeed, the quarry siding)?

According to the info I have, Betchworth Up Siding is OOU from its connection with the Up Reading at 2A points, and I don't know when it was last used. I should imagine the last use could have been an MPV at some point. The crossover is in use and I believe it has seen either a tamper or ballast movement (maybe both) within the last 6 months (approx.). I don't have the documents to hand but rest assured that it has been used!

 

[D Foster]

As I recall... From c 1980+
When Betchworth Box closed out no groundframes were put onto Reigate Box - which took over the line as far as Gomshall - on the platform side of the engineer's crossover.
That engineer's crossover at Gomshall was normally clipped and locked out of use when I worked the Box. It's main use provided for terminating passenger trains when the line on one side or the other had a T3 Possession. Passengers were bussed around the Block from the remains of the goods yard. The crossover saw a small amount of use for engineer's trains at the same time.
The Dorking Town crossover could be used in a similar way - even with no Signalbox there - the working to-and from Betchworth being arranged by telephone in the P Way hut. Again the busses use Dorking Town yard to turn around.
As far as I know the points at Betchworth were clipped and locked out of use and retained for the engineers when the Box closed.
In my day neither Gomshall crossover nor the Dorking Town one had a groundframe - nor even a lever... they were swung by baring with a pinch bar.

That's for c 1980... I don't know what's happened since.

On the OP... At one time emergency points at least were worked at set intervals but, to the best of my knowledge, this stopped when PWay gangs and S&T gangs were cut back and centralised - because there were too many cases of the points not working correctly and causing delays... they tended to have very little actual use anyway. When they were going to be wanted for engineer's work they would get a sudden dose of grease and prepared for use. I never knew of a set on Southern that was used in emergency - probably because they might have caused their own problems.



--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thinking about it... It would probably have taken something like a landslip or bridge out for a long time for the emergency crossovers to be used - in which case the blocked line would be under a T3 Possession - and the gangs would be out to grease-up the points and work them.
Train failures would not count as a sufficient failure and would be rescued by assistance from the appropriate end - with a wrong-line movement round the failure, or back onto the front of it, when needed. Wrong Line movements like that were a PAIN! The preferred method was always to shove a failure through to where it could be berthed or run-around to get the assistance on the front.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The quarry connection siding at Betchworth which used to lead to the narrow gauge network there surely hasn't been used since the 1960s (my guess) and is still extant (but heavily overgrown) for about 200 metres. The connecting points to the main line are still there, worked from the adjacent ground frame. I have no idea why it wasn't lifted long ago. There is also a trailing crossover worked by the ground frame and I don't think that has been used for many years either.

The Down-end, Up side siding at Betchworth was quite often used to stable engineer's stock, including On Track Machines at least as late as 1980 - edit - and more - probably right up to closure of the Box (In the bottom corner of the station house - with a knee frame) when I had mates working there.
I particularly recall this - because a few slight "discussions" occurred with TOPS because they never managed to know how many wagons were in the siding - and demanded that the Signalman went down to count them and take their numbers... They should have asked nicely. Even when the train crew had left a list TOPS would argue about it... ineffectively...

 

[Springs Branch]

On the northern part of the WCML, I recall during the 1970s resignalling prior to electrification, there was generous provision of emergency crossovers on the 2-track sections north of Wigan. These comprised both a facing and a trailing crossover at each location, worked from local emergency ground frames.

I just noticed on my latest Quail map that (south of the border at least) about two-thirds of those crossovers have now been removed.

Presumably the remaining ones are used occasionally for engineering possessions, but not for emergency single line working during unplanned disruption.

Remaining emergency crossovers are at Garstang & Catterall, Milnthorpe, Shap Summit and Clifton & Lowther.
The ones eliminated were Boar's Head and at Blainscough (south of Preston) then Barton & Broughton, Bay Horse, Lambrigg, Low Gill, Plumpton and Southwaite - a fair maintenance saving on a busy main line, I guess. Wonder how many of these were ever used as originally intended after the WCML electrification project was complete?

 

[Ibex]

One that always spring to my head when things like this pop up is the connection from the DC line to the fast lines at Watford Junction which won't have seen regular use for some 10+ years now.

It was used daily during the Silverlink days when the 313's were stabled in Watford yard and had to be shunted off the DC via Watford South Junction, into the down fast platform and across to the down slow. Even if LOROL wanted to do this they wouldn't be able to anymore as the crossover from the down fast onto the down slow at the South Junction was removed during the Watford resignalling in 2014, but the DC connection left in situ.

 

[Deepgreen]

As I recall... From c 1980+
When Betchworth Box closed out no groundframes were put onto Reigate Box - which took over the line as far as Gomshall - on the platform side of the engineer's crossover.
That engineer's crossover at Gomshall was normally clipped and locked out of use when I worked the Box. It's main use provided for terminating passenger trains when the line on one side or the other had a T3 Possession. Passengers were bussed around the Block from the remains of the goods yard. The crossover saw a small amount of use for engineer's trains at the same time.
The Dorking Town crossover could be used in a similar way - even with no Signalbox there - the working to-and from Betchworth being arranged by telephone in the P Way hut. Again the busses use Dorking Town yard to turn around.
As far as I know the points at Betchworth were clipped and locked out of use and retained for the engineers when the Box closed.
In my day neither Gomshall crossover nor the Dorking Town one had a groundframe - nor even a lever... they were swung by baring with a pinch bar.

That's for c 1980... I don't know what's happened since.

On the OP... At one time emergency points at least were worked at set intervals but, to the best of my knowledge, this stopped when PWay gangs and S&T gangs were cut back and centralised - because there were too many cases of the points not working correctly and causing delays... they tended to have very little actual use anyway. When they were going to be wanted for engineer's work they would get a sudden dose of grease and prepared for use. I never knew of a set on Southern that was used in emergency - probably because they might have caused their own problems.



--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thinking about it... It would probably have taken something like a landslip or bridge out for a long time for the emergency crossovers to be used - in which case the blocked line would be under a T3 Possession - and the gangs would be out to grease-up the points and work them.
Train failures would not count as a sufficient failure and would be rescued by assistance from the appropriate end - with a wrong-line movement round the failure, or back onto the front of it, when needed. Wrong Line movements like that were a PAIN! The preferred method was always to shove a failure through to where it could be berthed or run-around to get the assistance on the front.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The Down-end, Up side siding at Betchworth was quite often used to stable engineer's stock, including On Track Machines at least as late as 1980 - edit - and more - probably right up to closure of the Box (In the bottom corner of the station house - with a knee frame) when I had mates working there.
I particularly recall this - because a few slight "discussions" occurred with TOPS because they never managed to know how many wagons were in the siding - and demanded that the Signalman went down to count them and take their numbers... They should have asked nicely. Even when the train crew had left a list TOPS would argue about it... ineffectively...

Very interesting - thanks for the information.