Re-openening Colne to Skipton, 'Financially Viable'

[CockneySparrow]

Wait for your electric hand me downs from London, then you might find that there's a spare pacer available to run a Colne - Skipton shuttle

Not to be sniffed at, better than they have got now which is nothing!

If you told the affected people yes we will reopen the line BUT it will only be served by pacers, the affected public will still snap your hands off

 

[edwin_m]

The costs/benefits ratio (BCR) was found to be very promising and if the number of passengers is greater than calculated for every £1 spent there could be benefits worth £6. 56- i.e If the number of passengers increased by 30%. (passenger footfall has always been far greater than numbers estimated when recent railways have re-opened.) therefore benefits could be even higher than this.

So if there are more passengers than the forecast says, then the BCR will be very good. What's this, pessimism bias?

 

[Bald Rick]

So if there are more passengers than the forecast says, then the BCR will be very good.

Isn't this the case for any reopening?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If you told the affected people yes we will reopen the line BUT it will only be served by pacers, the affected public will still snap your hands off

Spoken with the full knowledge of the nuances of the Pacer fleet of one from the Stratford area, where these monstrosities are not allowed on the rail network there....

 

[34D]

If this line reopens, what is the earliest point in the future that Blackburn-Burnley-Colne-Skipton by direct train is possible, please?

 

[455driver]

If this line reopens, what is the earliest point in the future that Blackburn-Burnley-Colne-Skipton by direct train is possible, please?

About a week after Hell freezes over!

 

[s&crailproject]

Is it not time to ask SELRAP to issue a new statement that refutes what they feel are incorrect, but at the same time to fully issue any irrefutable evidence that can be given the backing of respected professional bodies, should they have all this information to hand, so their position can be fully evaluated and debated.

The 6.5 BCR is from a New study, of which is still to be made public, this will come in due course, the BBC Report was to highlight that the project had not been included in CP5, which is not an issue, as all the studies haven't been conducted, the project would have to have been just passes GRIP 3, which is a full engineering study, it's at GRIP2 at the minute, about to start GRIP 3, full project cost will not be to hand until this is complete.
The current ARUP 1B/Grip 2 is a desk top study, based on what we know from all the research conducted to date, with current updates in to cost of construction, and other findings.

6.5 is accurate to date, by Arup, using all the latest WebTag formulas, which are still changing, for the better, in regards to the project.

Lancashire CC, have to be the project leaders in this, and so far so good, without them, and North Yorkshire CC backing it the project can't go forward, part of the funding for the GRIP 3 is coming from LCC, and other Local Authorities.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The 6.5 BCR is from a New study, of which is still to be made public, this will come in due course, the BBC Report was to highlight that the project had not been included in CP5, which is not an issue, as all the studies haven't been conducted

This is the point that worries me. To allow a statement to be made on the BBC local TV news programme from a report, which you yourself admit in the quote above has still not yet been made public, gives no opportunity for this statement detail to be checked.

How long advanced in time is "in due course" ?

 

[Lankyline]

To say that there "could be" benefits worth £6.56 to me smacks of a soundbite, until the details are published, as Paul says, how can anything be checked & verified.

Don't get me wrong if there is a viable case for reopening then i hope it succeeds, but i wonder if their aspirations of part of a "major" route from Liverpool to Hull are just a little bit too optimistic !!

So if thats what they want, as the crow flies, do you upgrade the Ormskirk line, double track it, reinstate the connections at Lostock Hall & Ormskirk, etc etc. Sometimes i think peole are stuck in the pre Beeching era, you could have done it then !

 

[tbtc]

The 6.5 BCR is from a New study, of which is still to be made public, this will come in due course, the BBC Report was to highlight that the project had not been included in CP5, which is not an issue, as all the studies haven't been conducted, the project would have to have been just passes GRIP 3, which is a full engineering study, it's at GRIP2 at the minute, about to start GRIP 3, full project cost will not be to hand until this is complete.
The current ARUP 1B/Grip 2 is a desk top study, based on what we know from all the research conducted to date, with current updates in to cost of construction, and other findings.

6.5 is accurate to date, by Arup, using all the latest WebTag formulas, which are still changing, for the better, in regards to the project.

Lancashire CC, have to be the project leaders in this, and so far so good, without them, and North Yorkshire CC backing it the project can't go forward, part of the funding for the GRIP 3 is coming from LCC, and other Local Authorities.

Simple question for anyone connected to SELRAP: Which of the following best resembles the business case that can create a 6.5:1 ratio (when comparing total costs against substantiated benefits):

1. A stand alone line between Colne and Skipton (that can be constructed and operated to "light rail" standards, so a lot cheaper than being part of the national rail network)
2. A simple single track extension of the existing Burnley to Colne branchline (i.e. would allow the hourly Pacer service from Blackpool North to continue to Skipton), to Network Rail standards
3. An all-singing/ all-dancing double tracked electrified line from Colne to Skipton that would allow expresses from Liverpool to Hull (which obviously includes the costs of all other work required to achieve this - redoubling/electrifying various lines from Colne towards Liverpool, extra infrastructure on the Airedale line to allow fast services etc etc)

Obviously if we know that it'll attract around half a million passengers a year and will have a 6.5:1 ratio then the research has been done in great detail - whilst I'm not expecting to see all of the "working" just yet, at least someone could give an indication of which one of these very different schemes they are proposing, so that we could discuss the wider repercussions?

 

[Lankyline]

Whilst SELRAP acknowledge the Todmorden curve reopening, does anyone think this will impact on their case ? Also what route do they think a connection from Liverpool via Colne will take ?

As tbtc says which is actually their business case, concentrating on "local" benefits, would i think, be more realistic to deliver

 

[yorksrob]

[*]A stand alone line between Colne and Skipton (that can be constructed and operated to "light rail" standards, so a lot cheaper than being part of the national rail network)
[*]A simple single track extension of the existing Burnley to Colne branchline (i.e. would allow the hourly Pacer service from Blackpool North to continue to Skipton), to Network Rail standards

I'm not convinced that option 1 would be more sustainable than option 2 in the long run. We already have a dead end branch line that could become a more useful part of the existing network. This would seem to have more of a long term future than a stand - alone light rail project.

I do agree that it's better to build the case around local connectivity than pinning hopes on heavy freight.

 

[wasi]

IF the project ever gets the go ahead I will be amazed. Considering how long it took them to re-open the Todmorden curve project, and that section of track was only 600 yards.

Would be superb to get the train from Nelson or Colne to Skipton mind

 

[John S2]

Whilst SELRAP acknowledge the Todmorden curve reopening, does anyone think this will impact on their case ?

I think it already has had a negative impact. I know the area well and would use a reopened Colne-Skipton reasonably frequently.
In my opinion the wrong line [out of the 2] has been reopened. There is a high frequency bus service to Manchester, which passes very close to Manchester Victoria, so the Todmorden curve does very little to increase connectivity. Reopening Skipton-Colne on the other hand allows various journeys to be made that are currently so tedious that I [and no doubt others] simply don't bother.

 

[wasi]

I think it already has had a negative impact. I know the area well and would use a reopened Colne-Skipton reasonably frequently.
In my opinion the wrong line [out of the 2] has been reopened. There is a high frequency bus service to Manchester, which passes very close to Manchester Victoria, so the Todmorden curve does very little to increase connectivity. Reopening Skipton-Colne on the other hand allows various journeys to be made that are currently so tedious that I [and no doubt others] simply don't bother.

I think THE main reason for the re-opening of the curve is purely down to the journey time, which has already been talked about on the thread. 2 hours from Nelson to Manchester in this day and age is simply too long.

 

[Deerfold]

I think it already has had a negative impact. I know the area well and would use a reopened Colne-Skipton reasonably frequently.
In my opinion the wrong line [out of the 2] has been reopened. There is a high frequency bus service to Manchester, which passes very close to Manchester Victoria, so the Todmorden curve does very little to increase connectivity. Reopening Skipton-Colne on the other hand allows various journeys to be made that are currently so tedious that I [and no doubt others] simply don't bother.

From late May, Burnley and Pendle will be running buses Burnley-Colne-Skipton every 15 minutes.

 

[Hardcastle]

I think its already proved there is a demand for reopening asap with the bus service situation & onward connections talked about. The Hull-Liverpool connection is between the two ports being connected for freight movements not a direct passenger service as mentioned in this post it is the least inclined route across the Pennines.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think its already proved there is a demand for reopening asap with the bus service situation & onward connections talked about. The Hull-Liverpool connection is between the two ports being connected for freight movements not a direct passenger service as mentioned in this post it is the least inclined route across the Pennines.

How much freight is there today Hull to Liverpool? Or even Hull to anywhere-that-would-use-this-line?

 

[34D]

The 6.5 BCR is from a New study, of which is still to be made public, this will come in due course, the BBC Report was to highlight that the project had not been included in CP5, which is not an issue, as all the studies haven't been conducted, the project would have to have been just passes GRIP 3, which is a full engineering study, it's at GRIP2 at the minute, about to start GRIP 3, full project cost will not be to hand until this is complete.
The current ARUP 1B/Grip 2 is a desk top study, based on what we know from all the research conducted to date, with current updates in to cost of construction, and other findings.

6.5 is accurate to date, by Arup, using all the latest WebTag formulas, which are still changing, for the better, in regards to the project.

Lancashire CC, have to be the project leaders in this, and so far so good, without them, and North Yorkshire CC backing it the project can't go forward, part of the funding for the GRIP 3 is coming from LCC, and other Local Authorities.

Is this an April fool or a genuine post?

 

[Tomnick]

How much freight is there today Hull to Liverpool? Or even Hull to anywhere-that-would-use-this-line?

Hopefully not much, given how challenging it'd be to path it to fit with the constraints of a basic single line railway with crossing loops, then the busy Skipton - Leeds corridor and finally through Leeds station or across the whole throat in one go!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

IF the project ever gets the go ahead I will be amazed. Considering how long it took them to re-open the Todmorden curve project, and that section of track was only 600 yards. Would be superb to get the train from Nelson or Colne to Skipton mind

The Todmorden Chord project was of the result of a successful bid submission of monies for this project and the refurbishment works of the Weavers Triangle complex in Burnley. It was not one that was just near to the top of rail infrastructure projects scheduled to commence.

Did SELRAP make an entry in the same bid submission project at the same time ?

 

[s&crailproject]

This is the point that worries me. To allow a statement to be made on the BBC local TV news programme from a report, which you yourself admit in the quote above has still not yet been made public, gives no opportunity for this statement detail to be checked.

How long advanced in time is "in due course" ?

Just been given details that the SELRAP/ARUP report are in Rail Magazine latest issue.

Due to this, I will ask the SELRAP Executives if the document can be published on here, from what I understood SELRAP was Waiting on feedback from LCC Planning offices, this is why their has been a delay.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is this an April fool or a genuine post?

April fool, ? I think not mate, SELRAP has some very good friends backing this project, it's all about timing, and they are now getting somewhere with it thanks to a change within Lancashire CC, be it a change to a Labour/Lib Dem County Council.

You should know that without a full GRIP 3 Study, plus all the other studies, and that these all prove beyond dought that the project stacks up, no one will be willing to invest in the project, and this all takes a great deal of time, 7 years of the project was just about stopping the local Government from building a road over the top of it, and is still an issue at present, so hope you would understand why the project didn't get of the ground sooner.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just been given details that the SELRAP/ARUP report are in Rail Magazine latest issue. Due to this, I will ask the SELRAP Executives if the document can be published on here, from what I understood SELRAP was waiting on feedback from LCC Planning offices, this is why their has been a delay.

I read and duly note what you say above, but my original query was allowing the mention of the implications of a document on the local BBC TV local news programme of then as-yet unpublished statements. I know that Government departments are prone to "leak good news" when it suits them at that time, but I am surprised to see SELRAP following the same course of action, even allowing for the fact that they do indeed appear to have certain PR contacts who will both guide and formulate publicity strategy..

 

[Starmill]

Not to be sniffed at, better than they have got now which is nothing!

If you told the affected people yes we will reopen the line BUT it will only be served by pacers, the affected public will still snap your hands off

So if there are more passengers than the forecast says, then the BCR will be very good. What's this, pessimism bias?

Becuase the people in the Colne and Skipton areas are second rate passengers, and surely their lack of proximity to the capital makes it obvious that they simply don't deserve anything better?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Becuase the people in the Colne and Skipton areas are second rate passengers, and surely their lack of proximity to the capital makes it obvious that they simply don't deserve anything better?

Colne and Skipton are both areas that are rail-connected to the national rail network, but see somewhat differing rail services and associated rolling stock at this point in time.

 

[tbtc]

Becuase the people in the Colne and Skipton areas are second rate passengers, and surely their lack of proximity to the capital makes it obvious that they simply don't deserve anything better?

There's enough threads on the Forum at the moment that have been turned into "north v south" arguments by those with chips on their shoulders - no need to turn this thread into one too.

To get back on to topic, I think it's interesting that the amazing 6:1 benefit/ cost ratio that SELRAP know about still hasn't been communicated so that at least we know what kind of investment they are talking about (single track siding with a Pacer shuttling up and down? mega fast route from Hull to Leeds? electrified?)... it's almost like SELRAP are a good PR organisation with little substance behind the pretty froth.