Reading station gateline rejects Freedom Passes

[Railcar]

Reading station is an outer limit for a London Freedom Pass (providing one travels there on a TfL Rail train).

The gateline rejects the Freedom Pass but the man at the wide gate will let you through.

I was told by that man at the gate that the Reading gateline cannot distinguish between Freedom Passes and Oyster Cards (the latter are only valid as far as Hayes & Harlington West Drayton). The gateline at Paddington can recognise the difference, why not Reading?


Mod note: Oyster is actually valid as far as West Drayton.

 

[swt_passenger]

Reading station is an outer limit for a London Freedom Pass (providing one travels there on a TfL Rail train).

The gateline rejects the Freedom Pass but the man at the wide gate will let you through.

I was told by that man at the gate that the Reading gateline cannot distinguish between Freedom Passes and Oyster Cards (the latter are only valid as far as Hayes & Harlington). The gateline at Paddington can recognise the difference, why not Reading?

AIUI a Freedom Pass is seen by the system as an Oyster all zones travelcard. Paddington is in the Oyster fares zone, so the gates have to be able to read Oyster. Reading isn’t, so because the readers cannot read Oyster they cannot see a Freedom Pass either.

 

[Alex365Dash]

Reading isn’t, so because the readers cannot read Oyster they cannot see a Freedom Pass either.

I’m fairly sure Freedom Passes as ENCTS passes are also ITSO compatible, so would the gate check for a rail ticket (the same way it would with a SWR/GWR touch smartcard), find there isn’t one and reject it that way, or does it just immediately recognise it isn’t compatible and rejects it?

 

[westv]

I didn't realise Freedom Passes were valid so far out. I'll be 60 in 2023 and will be even more envious of those in London then.

 

[swt_passenger]

I’m fairly sure Freedom Passes as ENCTS passes are also ITSO compatible, so would the gate check for a rail ticket (the same way it would with a SWR/GWR touch smartcard), find there isn’t one and reject it that way, or does it just immediately recognise it isn’t compatible and rejects it?

I don’t know the detail re ITSO on Freedom Cards I’m afraid.

 

[Dstock7080]

I didn't realise Freedom Passes were valid so far out. I'll be 60 in 2023 and will be even more envious of those in London then.

Londoners aged 60 cannot be issued with a Freedom Pass unless disabled

 

[lawried123]

AIUI a Freedom Pass is seen by the system as an Oyster all zones travelcard. Paddington is in the Oyster fares zone, so the gates have to be able to read Oyster. Reading isn’t, so because the readers cannot read Oyster they cannot see a Freedom Pass either.

I have a retired TFL staff pass and as long as I use a TFL train to get to Reading I just have to show my pass and my priv photo ID to the barrier attendant and they happily let me through. Same applies at Upminster as their machines won't accept the pass.

 

[matt_world2004]

Oyster and freedom passes use the same technology. It's not that the gateline is programmed to reject them is that the same technical zonal limitation of oyster also applies to freedom passes

I’m fairly sure Freedom Passes as ENCTS passes are also ITSO compatible, so would the gate check for a rail ticket (the same way it would with a SWR/GWR touch smartcard), find there isn’t one and reject it that way, or does it just immediately recognise it isn’t compatible and rejects it?

They are not ITSO compatible bus readers outside London can't read then

 

[Railcar]

Oyster and Freedom passes may use the same technology, but gates recognise a difference. The gate display will show the amount of money left on an Oyster, but with a Freedom Pass it just says 'Enter'. Following last years arm-twist by the government on TfL, Older Persons Freedom Passes will not work until 0900 on weekdays (where Disabled FPs will), so again the gate recognises a difference.

Some buses outside London that use a 'tap in' reader will certainly recognise Freedom Passes (I'm thinking of a holiday in Devon last year).

 

[matt_world2004]

Oyster and Freedom passes may use the same technology, but gates recognise a difference. The gate display will show the amount of money left on an Oyster, but with a Freedom Pass it just says 'Enter'. Following last years arm-twist by the government on TfL, Older Persons Freedom Passes will not work until 0900 on weekdays (where Disabled FPs will), so again the gate recognises a difference.

Some buses outside London that use a 'tap in' reader will certainly recognise Freedom Passes (I'm thinking of a holiday in Devon last year).

The gates will show enter only if a travel card season is on the oyster card too.

They didn't recognise my girlfriend's freedom pass when tapped in on a bus in Eastbourne on Saturday.

 

[Wolfie]

Londoners aged 60 cannot be issued with a Freedom Pass unless disabled

That's true about a Freedom pass but they (including me in two years time) can get a (slightly less generous but still much better than a kick in the teeth) Oyster 60+ card by paying £20.

60+ London Oyster photocard

If you're aged 60 or over and live in a London borough, you might be eligible for a 60+ London Oyster photocard

tfl.gov.uk

 

[Dstock7080]

That's true about a Freedom pass but they (including me in two years time) can get a (slightly less generous but still much better than a kick in the teeth) Oyster 60+ card by paying £20.

not valid to Reading which is what this thread is about: "Reading station gateline rejects Freedom Passes"

 

[Wolfie]

not valid to Reading which is what this thread is about: "Reading station gateline rejects Freedom Passes"

True enough.

 

[Ralph Ayres]

Leaving aside any technical limitations, the current arrangement also gives the opportunity for gateline staff to remind anyone coming into Reading station with a Freedom Pass that it's only available on TfL Rail services. If the holder is later found on a GWR train it would be harder to argue that he or she had assumed it was valid on every train "because the gates let me in".

 

[Deerfold]

Oyster and freedom passes use the same technology. It's not that the gateline is programmed to reject them is that the same technical zonal limitation of oyster also applies to freedom passes

They are not ITSO compatible bus readers outside London can't read then

They should be.

https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/node/4597

ENCTS passes must also have national ITSO smartcard compatibility. ITSO is not compatible with TfL’s Oyster system and so the London passes have dual capability.

I believe they weren't originally ITSO compliant, but as they're reissued every few years they should all be, now.

 

[Argyle 1980]

Aren't Freedom passes issued in two parts? The oyster type part for travel in London and the ITSO ENECTS English national pass for bus travel only outside of TFL controlled bus routes. Which pass is the the one that's supposed to be used to travel and exit at Reading?

The gates will show enter only if a travel card season is on the oyster card too.

They didn't recognise my girlfriend's freedom pass when tapped in on a bus in Eastbourne on Saturday.

Which pass did she try on the bus in Eastbourne?

 

[matt_world2004]

Aren't Freedom passes issued in two parts? The oyster type part for travel in London and the ITSO ENECTS English national pass for bus travel only outside of TFL controlled bus routes. Which pass is the the one that's supposed to be used to travel and exit at Reading?

No just one card

 

[Argyle 1980]

No just one card

So which card gets issued? An oyster type one or the ENECTS English bus puss type card? Only curious because I've seen people recently using both blue and orange stripe English bus passes issued by "London Councils" locally in Cornwall.

 

[matt_world2004]

So which card gets issued? An oyster type one or the ENECTS English bus puss type card? Only curious because I've seen people recently using both blue and orange stripe English bus passes issued by "London Councils" locally in Cornwall.

Oyster type that looks like an encts pass.

 

[MikeWh]

Only curious because I've seen people recently using both blue and orange stripe English bus passes issued by "London Councils" locally in Cornwall.

Blue stripe is the older persons freedom pass, orange is the disabled persons version.

 

[OliverH68]

Oyster type that looks like an encts pass.

Maybe it depends on the issuing council I wonder, or when specifically it was issued? My freedom pass which is issued by Croydon Council is an ITSO one, I've used it on many buses outside of London without issue on the pass readers.

 

[Argyle 1980]

I thought the ENECTS passes and freedom oysters in London were separate cards, obviously because I've seen people trying to use freedom oysters outside London and obviously get refused and as I'd seen generic London councils ENECTS passes used I thought they were issued separately but must be wrong.
Find it strange if TFL bus machines can recognise London Councils ENECTS passes but they can't recognise other council's because when I use my orange ENCTS pass that's issued by Cornwall Council in London, I just flash it to the driver, and revenue inspectors just visually check it too.
If their machines can recognise a travel card issued on an ITSO Key, then why can't they recognise a ENCTS pass?
I know nationally, most bus operators machines can identify cards issued by the local authority they are issued in that qualify for additional benefits like all day travel, though that's not relevant in Cornwall as outside of London they are the only other local authority that permits all other local authority issued passes to travel free before 9AM and after 11pm

Am also curious how TFL get reimbursed by the DFT for non London ENCTS passes used when no record of the journey is made.

 

[PeterC]

I thought the ENECTS passes and freedom oysters in London were separate cards, obviously because I've seen people trying to use freedom oysters outside London and obviously get refused and as I'd seen generic London councils ENECTS passes used I thought they were issued separately but must be wrong.
Find it strange if TFL bus machines can recognise London Councils ENECTS passes but they can't recognise other council's because when I use my orange ENCTS pass that's issued by Cornwall Council in London, I just flash it to the driver, and revenue inspectors just visually check it too.
If their machines can recognise a travel card issued on an ITSO Key, then why can't they recognise a ENCTS pass?
I know nationally, most bus operators machines can identify cards issued by the local authority they are issued in that qualify for additional benefits like all day travel, though that's not relevant in Cornwall as outside of London they are the only other local authority that permits all other local authority issued passes to travel free before 9AM and after 11pm

Am also curious how TFL get reimbursed by the DFT for non London ENCTS passes used when no record of the journey is made.

The answer to the last question is that there is no "cross border" settlement. Each LA carries the cost of passes used on its area.

 

[matt_world2004]

Am also curious how TFL get reimbursed by the DFT for non London ENCTS passes used when no record of the journey is made.

The origin point as to where the pass is used determines who pays for the travel. Not where the pass is from.

So if an outside London pass is used in Ealing.The London Borough of Ealing picksup the cost.

Iirc london councils pay tfl a flat fee for concessionary travel rather than a per trip cost. But where the bus crosses the greater London boundary the council will still pick up the cost on London buses. For example denham will pick up the cost of encts travel on the 331 at denham station after 9:30 and tfl writes off the travel before 9:30.

 

[Deerfold]

So which card gets issued? An oyster type one or the ENECTS English bus puss type card? Only curious because I've seen people recently using both blue and orange stripe English bus passes issued by "London Councils" locally in Cornwall.

There's only one pass. It can talk to Oyster readers or ENTCS readers as it has both technologies.

I thought the ENECTS passes and freedom oysters in London were separate cards, obviously because I've seen people trying to use freedom oysters outside London and obviously get refused and as I'd seen generic London councils ENECTS passes used I thought they were issued separately but must be wrong.

There are other non-ENTCS cards issued by London Councils, primarily the over-60s card.

 

[Argyle 1980]

The origin point as to where the pass is used determines who pays for the travel. Not where the pass is from.

So if an outside London pass is used in Ealing.The London Borough of Ealing picksup the cost.

Iirc london councils pay tfl a flat fee for concessionary travel rather than a per trip cost. But where the bus crosses the greater London boundary the council will still pick up the cost on London buses. For example denham will pick up the cost of encts travel on the 331 at denham station after 9:30 and tfl writes off the travel before 9:30.

Just curious how TFL know how many journeys I make in London by bus and how it's reimbursed because there's absolutely no record of any journey recorded ever.
Also I know revenue checks in London are a frequent occurrence, but somebody with a stolen or hot listed pass could pretty much use it indefinitely without detection and if stopped by revenue, they'd probably just say they forgot to tap bank card blah blah and accept the penalty fare and not disclose the pass.

 

[matt_world2004]

Just curious how TFL know how many journeys I make in London by bus and how it's reimbursed because there's absolutely no record of any journey recorded ever.
Also I know revenue checks in London are a frequent occurrence, but somebody with a stolen or hot listed pass could pretty much use it indefinitely without detection and if stopped by revenue, they'd probably just say they forgot to tap bank card blah blah and accept the penalty fare and not disclose the pass.

They don't if your on a freedom pass. The councils pay tfl a fixed fee reimbursement not a per journey fee

But outside London the time you touch in on the bus is recorded or present the pass to the driver. This is used to get reimbursement from places like denham .

 

[Argyle 1980]

They don't if your on a freedom pass. The councils pay tfl a fixed fee reimbursement not a per journey fee

But outside London the time you touch in on the bus is recorded or present the pass to the driver. This is used to get reimbursement from places like denham .

Yes I know all that. What I'm trying to determine is how do TFL know I'm making journeys entirely within London on a pass issued by Cornwall Council when you don't touch onto London buses and just simply flash the card to the driver. Judging by what your saying, TFL gets paid a lump fixed fee for allowing every single pass holders from anywhere outside London to use TFL services, whether they use their pass in London or not?

 

[matt_world2004]

Yes I know all that. What I'm trying to determine is how do TFL know I'm making journeys entirely within London on a pass issued by Cornwall Council when you don't touch onto London buses and just simply flash the card to the driver. Judging by what your saying, TFL gets paid a lump fixed fee for allowing every single pass holders from anywhere outside London to use TFL services, whether they use their pass in London or not?

They don't need to. Reimbursement only goes on where you boarded the bus not where you got off. If you boarded the bus in Uxbridge and got off in denham . Denham cc would not pay anything for the trip

Driver presses a button on the etm indicating elderly/disabled to indicate a manually presented pass

 

[Haywain]

Denham cc would not pay anything for the trip

That’s likely to be Buckinghamshire.