Reducing Journey times to Nevis Range

[HSTEd]

This is a proper Crayonista thread -
The objective is to reduce journey times between the country at large and the Nevis Range (the local station being Fort William).
The route serving Fort William is currently considerably slower than others that stretch that far north.

So if we assume a world class ski resort has been developed there (shutdown of Ocean circulation causing cold winters, or just lots and lots and lots of snow cannon in the cheap-energy optimistic future) and that lots of people want to go there - what railway improvements would most reduce the journey time?

Short of building a complete new high speed line into the middle of a low-population density semi-desert obviously?

I suppose you could build a new section of line between Dalwhinnie and Tulloch that would allow you to route trains via the line to Aviemore - which would be expensive but could potentially cut approaching two hours off the journey time, based on London-Aviemore journeys being two hours faster.

 

[jopsuk]

Nevis Range, more than the other four ski areas, has a second life as a mountain bike centre. It's a regular venue for the top level Downhill MTB worldcup.

Never mind speed, what the line really could do with is higher capacity for carrying bikes- indeed, the 158s will have an official capacity lower than the current 156s.

 

[route:oxford]

This is a proper Crayonista thread -
The objective is to reduce journey times between the country at large and the Nevis Range (the local station being Fort William).
The route serving Fort William is currently considerably slower than others that stretch that far north.

Essentially you are talking about the re-opening of the Invergarry and Fort August Railway and extending it to Inverness?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invergarry_and_Fort_Augustus_Railway

 

[najaB]

Essentially you are talking about the re-opening of the Invergarry and Fort August Railway and extending it to Inverness?

That wouldn't reduce journey times from the south.

 

[Railsigns]

Essentially you are talking about the re-opening of the Invergarry and Fort August Railway and extending it to Inverness?

It would be more useful to reopen the Connel Ferry to Ballachulish line and extend it to Fort William.

You could also build a new direct line between Ardlui and Dalmally, cutting out Crianlarich, to reduce journey times to both Oban and Fort William (via Ballachulish).

 

[eastdyke]

This is a proper Crayonista thread -
The objective is to reduce journey times between the country at large and the Nevis Range (the local station being Fort William).
The route serving Fort William is currently considerably slower than others that stretch that far north.

So if we assume a world class ski resort has been developed there (shutdown of Ocean circulation causing cold winters, or just lots and lots and lots of snow cannon in the cheap-energy optimistic future) and that lots of people want to go there - what railway improvements would most reduce the journey time?

Short of building a complete new high speed line into the middle of a low-population density semi-desert obviously?

I suppose you could build a new section of line between Dalwhinnie and Tulloch that would allow you to route trains via the line to Aviemore - which would be expensive but could potentially cut approaching two hours off the journey time, based on London-Aviemore journeys being two hours faster.

Snow cannon would still need those cold winters to operate. You cannot make snow at +5C, let alone keep it.

I am not sure of the ground conditions just west of Dalwhinnie given that the A86 runs from Laggan.

I think that a flying boat service from Glasgow (River Clyde) to Loch Linnhe is rather more likely than an improved rail option. (Sadly)

 

[HSTEd]

Snow cannon would still need those cold winters to operate. You cannot make snow at +5C, let alone keep it.

Not using conventional snow cannon - but there are methods of generating snow at 5C.

Additionally even with the current winters there are many nights when the wet-bulb temperature at the top of these ranges drops below zero, at which point you would switch on a huge battery of snow cannon and make as much snow as possible before the temperature climbs again. (For example on Sunday the temperature is projected to drop as low as -6C)

Snow can also be pushed down the slopes by piste-machinery if necessary.

 

[Ediswan]

Short of building a complete new high speed line into the middle of a low-population density semi-desert obviously?

Semi-desert ??? Quick, warn the investors in the local hydroelectric schemes

I once came across a tunnel boring machine being towed along the A86. It had a second steering wheel at the back.

 

[HSTEd]

Semi-desert ??? Quick, warn the investors in the local hydroelectric schemes

I meant desert in the sense of noone living there rather than the stereotype hot desert

 

[Bertie the bus]

If you’re concerned about the London – Fort William market then why would the bit north of Glasgow need speeding up at all? A reduction in the London – Glasgow journey would speed up the whole journey. In fact if this hypothetical ski resort did materialise then why would journey time be a factor? Do City workers have an app on their iPhone where if it alerts them they must drop everything and get to the top of Ben Nevis as soon as humanly possible? I would have thought imagining hypothetical trains that can accommodate these skiers and their skis would be more appropriate, or is that your next thread?

 

[Dvorak]

It's not a hypothetical ski resort, it's a real ski resort (albeit not the size the OP is envisaging). And it's not on Ben Nevis either, it is across the glen. And "drop everything when there is snow and head up" is exactly what city workers do - the cities in question being Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Agree though that what the "Mountain bike capital of the UK" could do with more would be something allowing guaranteed turn up and go with your bike. The best way to get there quicker would be to have a train which didn't make any stops between Glasgow and Fort William.

 

[DimTim]

With the availability of hydro-electric nearby - must be ripe for electrification!

 

[Cowley]

With the availability of hydro-electric nearby - must be ripe for electrification!

dontsayitdontsayitdontsayit. Third rail with tilt converted 442s? I'll get me coat (oh I didn't bring one it it's too warm)

 

[Tim R-T-C]

There was plenty of snow when I was there last year!

A sleeper service from Leeds would be very useful, can we arrange that first?

 

[HSTEd]

If you’re concerned about the London – Fort William market then why would the bit north of Glasgow need speeding up at all? A reduction in the London – Glasgow journey would speed up the whole journey.

This is likely to happen anyway - and Fort William will still take too long from London and the South of England even if HS2 reaches the Central Belt as it is.

In fact if this hypothetical ski resort did materialise then why would journey time be a factor? Do City workers have an app on their iPhone where if it alerts them they must drop everything and get to the top of Ben Nevis as soon as humanly possible? I would have thought imagining hypothetical trains that can accommodate these skiers and their skis would be more appropriate, or is that your next thread?

Well as someone who has lugged such things on regular trains its not really that hard, especially if you have relatively short carving skis compared to the longer traditional type.

Scotland must be competitive on journey times with more traditional resorts or it has little chance.

 

[neonison]

I think that a flying boat service from Glasgow (River Clyde) to Loch Linnhe is rather more likely than an improved rail option. (Sadly)

Sounds great! When does it start? Are they using Catalinas or Sunderlands?

 

[Bertie the bus]

This is likely to happen anyway - and Fort William will still take too long from London and the South of England even if HS2 reaches the Central Belt as it is.

What is the definition of too long for a journey from London to a mountain range?

 

[najaB]

Sounds great! When does it start? Are they using Catalinas or Sunderlands?

I'd go for the Be-200 if I was running things. Has the speed and range to make London-Fort William flights a possibility.

 

[Altnabreac]

Sounds great! When does it start? Are they using Catalinas or Sunderlands?

Loch Lomond seaplanes use a Cessna 208:
https://www.lochlomondseaplanes.com/information-our-aircraft/

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is the definition of too long for a journey from London to a mountain range?

And do we want to turn it into a playground for rich tourists from London every weekend, anyway?

 

[najaB]

Loch Lomond seaplanes use a Cessna 208...

Not big enough if the Nevis range has become popular enough to justify a railway upgrade.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do we actually want to speed it up, anyway?

Would it make more sense to invest in some proper scenic rolling stock, i.e. not tarted-up 158s, and operate a premium-fare service like the Glacier Express with panoramic windows, restaurant meals etc? It'd make the railway a packet, I'm sure of it. Why do we not do such things in the UK?

 

[oldman]

To be a spoilsport, Glasgow and Inverness airports (and Glasgow HST terminal) would be the gateways, with upgrades to the A82. For example, Davos is a world-class ski resort. This from Wikipedia:

Zurich, the nearest main international airport to Davos and Klosters, is 154 km from Davos and driving from the airport to Davos takes just over 2 hours.

I of course would use my private helicopter.

 

[Osprey17]

How much time could be saved on the West Highland Line to Oban/Fort William/Mallaig through electrification?

 

[Iskra]

Surely the easiest solution is for the new sleeper stock to be designed so that it can run comfortably up to 110mph on the WCML. That would be a great improvement on the current standard 75mph. Much cheaper to do that than any massive infrastructure projects. Even if you could get to 100mph it would make a considerable difference. ...Tilting sleeper stock anyone?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely the easiest solution is for the new sleeper stock to be designed so that it can run comfortably up to 110mph on the WCML. That would be a great improvement on the current standard 75mph. Much cheaper to do that than any massive infrastructure projects. Even if you could get to 100mph it would make a considerable difference. ...Tilting sleeper stock anyone?

DB of course had some tilting Sleeper stock - the Talgo rakes - and they were absolutely superb for a good night's kip, with almost no G-forces which are fun during the day but keep you awake at night.

But there is no reason you couldn't run the current trains at 100mph on the WCML if you wanted to. The question is if it is economically useful to do so, given that most people going to Fort Bill aren't going on business, and it's a longer journey than Inverness/Aberdeen where there is no benefit to arriving earlier.

 

[Deepgreen]

My view is that, no matter how much snow falls there, the accompanying weather conditions are always going to be a constraint - the proportion of time the area's mountains spend in cloud is far higher than already-popular resorts, and the traditional favoured ski regime of sun and snow is rare. For this reason I see no prospect of a hugely-attractive ski venue for anyone who is not already using it - the 'hard core' if you will.

 

[Iskra]

DB of course had some tilting Sleeper stock - the Talgo rakes - and they were absolutely superb for a good night's kip, with almost no G-forces which are fun during the day but keep you awake at night.

But there is no reason you couldn't run the current trains at 100mph on the WCML if you wanted to. The question is if it is economically useful to do so, given that most people going to Fort Bill aren't going on business, and it's a longer journey than Inverness/Aberdeen where there is no benefit to arriving earlier.

Wow, I wasn't aware that tilting sleeper stock existed, that's interesting.

CS quote the reduced speed as for comfort reasons. I agree there is a limited business case for an earlier arrival into Fort William, but if it's possible, why not do it? Those that don't want to get up that early can just remain on the train? Or it could depart Euston later, making it more accessible.

 

[Dvorak]

I think that you could make the service Glasgow to FW a bit faster and still have plenty of time to enjoy they scenery.

Supplement the existing service to Oban with some trains which run through complete, but any FW bound passengers transfer to battery powered panoramic railcars at Crianlarich which run non-stop to Fort Bill.

 

[Railsigns]

Supplement the existing service to Oban with some trains which run through complete,

This part was implemented a few years ago.

but any FW bound passengers transfer to battery powered panoramic railcars at Crianlarich which run non-stop to Fort Bill.

They'd have to stop at nearly every station to exchange RETB tokens anyway, so they might as well let passengers on and off.