Return to Education

[Simon11]

First sign of some children in wales going back to school in wales directly after half term! Considering their low covid rates, surely some even lower areas in Wales could return now?

Covid in Wales: Youngest set to return to primary schools from 22 February https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55919366

 

[londonteacher]

As a teacher constantly hearing people on forums and social media saying that teacher's do not want to go back to work is disheartening because in most cases (I would say a high 95+%) teacher's prefer teaching in classrooms.

Currently it's the unions and the government saying that schools can't go back to normal as well as a very small minority of the profession.

 

[sjpowermac]

https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1357375771011145728

The latest on schools reopening.

Needless to say a spectacularly bad idea on many levels:

- Obviously the unions are going to object. I get this is presumably an attempt to needle them and make them react, but it comes across as a terrible idea.
- What volunteers? Education is not just something anyone can do, which is the exact reason we have staff qualified to do so.
- Are kids realistically likely to benefit from this? Their attention span is not infinite.
- The extra time being compensated for by extended lunch times rather renders the whole thing pointless.

If Tesco can open 24 hours a day then why not schools?

There were certainly some interesting replies to the tweet!

I think you’ve called it perfectly, a blatant attempt to turn even more people against schools/teachers.

Reading many of the posts in this thread it is all too clear that some need little encouragement to stick the knife in.

Before all the usual thread suspects pop up, I currently work over and above my scheduled hours and because I’m teaching many SEND students that means being physically in school.

 

[WelshBluebird]

- Are kids realistically likely to benefit from this? Their attention span is not infinite.

I mean that doesn't stop us as a society expecting people to work x hours per day for y days per week, despite clear research showing such a work day doesn't get the best out of staff.

As a teacher constantly hearing people on forums and social media saying that teacher's do not want to go back to work is disheartening because in most cases (I would say a high 95+%) teacher's prefer teaching in classrooms.

Currently it's the unions and the government saying that schools can't go back to normal as well as a very small minority of the profession.

Out of the people I know who are teachers, most cannot wait to be back in the classroom.
But that is on the caveat that they are safe and that measures aren't being put in place to tick a box, but to actually keep people safe (a good example shared by one of my friends was some markers / tape which were supposed to be used to help distancing, but because of the number of pupils in the class, they were always ignored).
I think another thing teachers are getting annoyed at (again from talking to friends) is just the how everything is presented to the general public. Think Boris's TV interview from a few months ago where in shot the pupils are well distanced and it looks fairly sensible, but the camera then pans to show the rest of the class bunched up in the other half of the classroom where they were put to clearly make it appear like distancing was possible for the interview when in reality it isn't).

 

[DorkingMain]

I mean that doesn't stop us as a society expecting people to work x hours per day for y days per week, despite clear research showing such a work day doesn't get the best out of staff.

Does that not prove my point entirely? Arbitrarily increasing hours is likely to result in even lower productivity.

 

[Western Sunset]

Some "interesting" comments in this thread.
I'll just say that some folk don't have a clue about what schools are like nowadays and the pressures put on staff from all quarters.

I'll just leave it at that...

 

[Simon11]

I'll just say that some folk don't have a clue about what schools are like nowadays and the pressures put on staff from all quarters.

My partner is a teacher and I definitely agree that there are lots of pressures on staff, however a lot of them appear to be internally based pressures and maybe 1/3rd of pressure from outside the school (i.e. government, council).

This could be from poor management decisions (Head teachers/ Assistant Heads) making policies such as maximum group of 8 children in a bubble at the moment. With 10 children in her bubble, they have just doubled her workload! There are then other nearby schools with bubbles of 15 and you wonder why they put this extra pressure on themselves! Another example, is my partner runs four daily teams sessions for year 6, whereas other primary schools only do two daily sessions. Again, why extra workload as well as teaching in person and doing small team sessions with children who need special help?

Its also from the teachers themselves, setting really high and honestly pointless 'standards'. A lot of teachers try to all stand out, putting in a ton of effort that the children will never appreciate. Additionally, teachers are going through many many hours converting classroom teaching styles to online, however do all the teachers need to do this? I'm still surprised that they can't standardised teaching material as learning fractions in year 6 is pretty much covered in the same way across the UK and has been for many, many years. Not sure why a few fantastic teachers couldn't prepare all the slides and material for a lesson on fractions covering different abilities, saving hours and hours of preparation time?

Based on my partner and her teaching friends, they all seem to be really concerned about being shown in a bad light and getting disciplined. This adds pressures which don't need to be there and compared to the private sector world, they are very highly unlikely to be sacked for poor performance. Put in extra effort to help children, but don't go overdo it and lose the balance in life.

 

[Bikeman78]

I mean that doesn't stop us as a society expecting people to work x hours per day for y days per week, despite clear research showing such a work day doesn't get the best out of staff.


Out of the people I know who are teachers, most cannot wait to be back in the classroom.
But that is on the caveat that they are safe and that measures aren't being put in place to tick a box, but to actually keep people safe (a good example shared by one of my friends was some markers / tape which were supposed to be used to help distancing, but because of the number of pupils in the class, they were always ignored).
I think another thing teachers are getting annoyed at (again from talking to friends) is just the how everything is presented to the general public. Think Boris's TV interview from a few months ago where in shot the pupils are well distanced and it looks fairly sensible, but the camera then pans to show the rest of the class bunched up in the other half of the classroom where they were put to clearly make it appear like distancing was possible for the interview when in reality it isn't).

I've said it before but I don't see how keeping children apart in schools is remotely practical. I can remember what being at school was like. If we really want to keep children safe, the authorities would be better off dealing with people parking on the pavement outside the school gates.

 

[Bantamzen]

I've said it before but I don't see how keeping children apart in schools is remotely practical. I can remember what being at school was like. If we really want to keep children safe, the authorities would be better off dealing with people parking on the pavement outside the school gates.

Not only is it not practical, it is not desirable. Kids learn how to function in society through interactions with other kids. Denying them this is denying them the ability to function properly when they reach adulthood.

 

[Tezza1978]

https://twitter.com/RLong_Bailey/status/1359481355759980545

Nursery, other Early Years staff, and the families that use Early Years need safety assurances urgently. I have written to @MattHancock to ask him to #ProtectEarlyYears staff, children and their families.

Just seen that Rebecca Long- Bailey has written a letter to the government today demanding that all nurseries and early years settings close with immediate effect except for key workers, citing an increase in single cases at some settings using 4 week old data.

These zero COVID fanatics just do not have a clue, as a Labour party member they make me feel politically homeless.

She is in the pocket of the unions of course who are now demanding pay rises and class sizes halved, part time rota schooling as a precondition of reopening schools

 

[yorkie]

Just seen that Rebecca Long- Bailey has written a letter to the government today demanding that all nurseries and early years settings close with immediate effect except for key workers, citing an increase in single cases at some settings using 4 week old data. These zero COVID fanatics just do not have a clue, as a Labour party member they make me feel politically homeless. She is in the pocket of the unions of course who are now demanding pay rises and class sizes halved, part time rota schooling as a precondition of reopening schools **rolls eyes**

Yes the "Zero Covid" brigade are downright dangerous; it's good to hear that the Republic of Ireland has rejected this bonkers strategy:

Coronavirus: Zero Covid strategy 'would be risky' for Republic of Ireland

A member of the Republic of Ireland's health emergency team says it is based on a "false promise".

www.bbc.co.uk

A senior member of the Republic of Ireland's National Public Health Emergency Team (NPHET) has rejected the "zero Covid" strategy advocated by opposition politicians.
Those supporting the measure point to Australia and New Zealand.
Those countries have had much stricter lockdowns and rules on inbound travel.
Professor Philip Nolan said it was a "false promise" to say Ireland could go from Level Five restrictions to Zero or One "in the space of weeks or months".
He said it "won't happen".

Ireland's Chief Medical Officer Dr Tony Holohan told the same news conference that zero Covid would be difficult to apply "in a realistic way in an environment like ours".
"We simply couldn't realistically seal the borders of this country and stop movement of people in and out," he added.
He said it was "far more reasonable to pursue the present policy of driving down community transmission and getting people vaccinated as quickly as possible".

The UK Government won't outright reject it because they want to pander to all sides, but it would be madness to go down this route. It would mean sealing the border for a very long time, imposing a harsh and long lockdown until literally everyone is vaccinated.

Also even once almost everyone is vaccinated if they won't accept some mild illness, the border would have to remain sealed for even longer.

These people are utterly deluded; their ideas sound wonderful in theory but are totally impractical. Anyone with any real world experience and intelligence can see that!

We need to start opening up schools no later than 8th March; the "Covid Zero" brigade will just have to lump it.

 

[Darandio]

I also saw yesterday that the Schools Minister was "open to all ideas" when discussing how children could catch up. One of these was the possibility reducing the school holidays and extending the school day.

It's a complete slap in the face for all of us parents who are working endlessly with our children during the shutdown, not to mention the teachers who are already going over and above what is expected of them. Now they want to shorten their time off as well by acting as if we/they aren't doing anything.

 

[yorkie]

I also saw yesterday that the Schools Minister was "open to all ideas" when discussing how children could catch up. One of these was the possibility reducing the school holidays and extending the school day.

It's not going to happen. Teachers work hard enough as it is.

I have heard about funding for extracurricular activities; this would be most welcome. The last time I was allowed to run any sort of extracurricular activity was nearly 11 months ago now, which is madness.

It's a complete slap in the face for all of us parents who are working endlessly with our children during the shutdown, not to mention the teachers who are already going over and above what is expected of them. Now they want to shorten their time off as well by acting as if we/they aren't doing anything.

Agreed; these people are bonkers for even suggesting it.

It just goes to show how out of touch some people are.

The only way to keep students in school for longer hours during term time or on extra days during the holidays is to pay for additional staff/organisations to run those activities; it cannot simply be part of the school day and these activities cannot be run by teachers, who are having to work harder with online working than in-person teaching.

Any extra sessions have to be fun, extra-curricular sessions. But many of the students who are the most behind will not necessarily want to attend these, so it is not a 'quick fix' to close the gap.

The focus must be on making any additional sessions fun for kids, it must be on stimulating them, improving their mental and physical well-being. They cannot simply be "catch up" sessions (at least not over and above the regular catch up sessions which teachers have always been doing!)

 

[Bantamzen]

It's not going to happen. Teachers work hard enough as it is.

I have heard about funding for extracurricular activities; this would be most welcome. The last time I was allowed to run any sort of extracurricular activity was nearly 11 months ago now, which is madness.

Agreed; these people are bonkers for even suggesting it.

It just goes to show how out of touch some people are.

The only way to keep students in school for longer hours during term time or on extra days during the holidays is to pay for additional staff/organisations to run those activities; it cannot simply be part of the school day and these activities cannot be run by teachers, who are having to work harder with online working than in-person teaching.

Any extra sessions have to be fun, extra-curricular sessions. But many of the students who are the most behind will not necessarily want to attend these, so it is not a 'quick fix' to close the gap.

The focus must be on making any additional sessions fun for kids, it must be on stimulating them, improving their mental and physical well-being. They cannot simply be "catch up" sessions (at least not over and above the regular catch up sessions which teachers have always been doing!)

I totally agree, kids are not just machines you can stuff information into. The people suggesting longer days to "catch up" are idiots.

 

[Tezza1978]

I totally agree, kids are not just machines you can stuff information into. The people suggesting longer days to "catch up" are idiots.

Yep - particularly younger children - you can't expect useful any productive and useful learning from them if you start extending the school day. Its hard enough getting my 6 year old to do his reading and practicing writing after a full day at school

 

[py_megapixel]

I totally agree, kids are not just machines you can stuff information into. The people suggesting longer days to "catch up" are idiots.

Yep - particularly younger children - you can't expect useful an productive and earning from them if you start extending the school day. Its hard enough getting my 6 year old to do his reading and practicing writing after a full day at school

Absolutely.

I think you'll find that many children - older ones, at least, who are taking GCSE exams - leave schools at the existing, rather early, finish times, already exhausted and with their head (figuratively) spinning, having had it bombarded for all it can take with all manner of facts (and, sadly more often than not, "exam technique").

Anyone who suggests that an extended school day would do anything more than make the worst affected students considerably more stressed and panicked for no real reason, really comes across to me as nothing more than entirely out of touch.

Students require time to relax, whether in the form of extracurricular activities within school, or by doing something they enjoy elsewhere. It is necessary for lessons to go ahead as well, but it is madness to put this so far ahead of mental health.

 

[ChrisC]

Yep - particularly younger children - you can't expect useful any productive and useful learning from them if you start extending the school day. Its hard enough getting my 6 year old to do his reading and practicing writing after a full day at school

I agree. Completely unrealistic to expect Foundation and Key Stage 1 children to concentrate upon anything productive beyond early afternoon. I used try to get all the daily literacy and numeracy activities completed by lunchtime as the quality of learning and standard of work dropped dramatically in the afternoon. I used to leave the afternoon for PE, music, art, story time etc but even then some of the the younger children were so tired after about 2pm. The national curriculum and OFSTED demanded more and more time to be spent on the academic subjects and the fun parts of the curriculum sadly got squeezed out. It was a nightmare trying to get 6 year olds to concentrate upon writing in the afternoons.

Chatting recently to a teacher that before I retired I used to work with, who works in Key Stage 1, she says that when the children came back in September after 6 months away from school they got tired very quickly each day. She also said that many of them seemed very tearful, immature, and were very attention seeking. It was extremely difficult because of social distancing she was not supposed to hug and cuddle them.

 

[yorkie]

Mathematical modeling suggests kids half as susceptible to COVID-19 as adults (medicalxpress.com)

A new computational analysis suggests that people under the age of 20 are about half as susceptible to COVID-19 infection as adults, and they are less likely to infect others. Itai Dattner of the University of Haifa, Israel, and colleagues present these findings in the open-access journal PLOS Computational Biology.

Earlier studies have found differences in symptoms and the clinical course of COVID-19 in children compared to adults. Others have reported that a lower proportion of children are diagnosed compared to older age groups. However, only a few studies have compared transmission patterns...

Not unexpected !

And...

https://www.eurosurveillance.org/content/10.2807/1560-7917.ES.2020.26.1.2002011

This prospective study shows that transmission of SARS-CoV-2 from children under 14 years of age was minimal in primary schools in Oslo and Viken, the two Norwegian counties with the highest COVID-19 incidence and in which 35% of the Norwegian population resides. In a period of low to medium community transmission (a 14-day incidence of COVID-19 of < 150 cases per 100,000 inhabitants) [9], when symptomatic children were asked to stay home from school, there were < 1% SARS-CoV-2–positive test results among child contacts and < 2% positive results in adult contacts in 13 contract tracings in Norwegian primary schools. In addition, self-collection of saliva for SARS-CoV-2 detection was efficient and sensitive (85% (11/13); 95% confidence interval: 55–98).

Most of our index cases were asymptomatic and were tested for SARS-CoV-2 by PCR because they were contacts of positive household members, supporting that household transmission is a considerable source of SARS-CoV-2 infection in children [6,10]. Although the number of adult contacts was limited, we found SARS-CoV-2 only in one (1.7%) of the adult contacts. This supports findings in Sweden, the Netherlands and Norway that teachers are not at higher risk of COVID-19 compared with other professions [11-13].

again not unexpected

 

[Richard Scott]

Mathematical modeling suggests kids half as susceptible to COVID-19 as adults (medicalxpress.com)

Not unexpected !

And...

https://www.eurosurveillance.org/content/10.2807/1560-7917.ES.2020.26.1.2002011



again not unexpected

From my experience this seems to bear out my observations. Kids that I know who've had it tend to be 14 or over and usually have got it from their parents. I don't know of any child who's actually given it to their parents. Very few kids in years 7/8 around here have had it, easily count them on one hand. Now need to get children back into school.

 

[DorkingMain]

Playing devil's advocate here - how big are the class sizes in these studies? Is it possible that distancing is actually possible and observed in Norwegian schools, vs the tendency here to cram 30 pupils into a cupboard?

 

[takno]

Mathematical modeling suggests kids half as susceptible to COVID-19 as adults (medicalxpress.com)

Not unexpected !

And...

https://www.eurosurveillance.org/content/10.2807/1560-7917.ES.2020.26.1.2002011



again not unexpected

I'd question where the parents got it from. The fact that the parents were the ones that presented with symptoms whilst the children were asymptomatic just shows that children basically don't suffer with Covid - it says nothing at all about the direction of transmission. I can't see anything in your synopsis which actually refutes the idea that school-aged children are actually the primary transmission mechanism in those communities. It's just more badly designed studies

 

[Richard Scott]

I'd question where the parents got it from. The fact that the parents were the ones that presented with symptoms whilst the children were asymptomatic just shows that children basically don't suffer with Covid - it says nothing at all about the direction of transmission. I can't see anything in your synopsis which actually refutes the idea that school-aged children are actually the primary transmission mechanism in those communities. It's just more badly designed studies

Parents in our area got it from a meet up then passed onto their children.

A snippet on the news on the radio thus morning talking about mass testing for school children, why? We have around 25% of population vaccinated, children are at minimal risk from it and, in reality, majority of teachers are also at low risk (any of those considered at risk should now be isolating after latest government guidelines). This virus is just an obsession now.

 

[sjpowermac]

This virus is just an obsession now.

It has been an obsession on this forum for a long time!

We have around 25% of population vaccinated, children are at minimal risk from it and, in reality, majority of teachers are also at low risk (any of those considered at risk should now be isolating after latest government guidelines).

I think the chances of getting children to do the tests properly is pretty minimal, so I can’t really see the point.

Doubtless ‘Bubbles’ of up to 300 will be back, making the spread of the virus more likely and at the same time massively disrupting lessons. I think schools should forget the masks too, on and off ten times a day, really what is the point?

Having had a break from this thread, I’m more than a little disappointed that there hasn’t been anything posted recently about ‘militant teachers’, I was really hoping for a laugh!

 

[yorkie]

Having had a break from this thread, I’m more than a little disappointed that there hasn’t been anything posted recently about ‘militant teachers’, I was really hoping for a laugh!

You're in the wrong place for that; try Twitter

I think most people realise that the number of teachers that are 'militant' is very small indeed, especially on this forum!

 

[Andyh82]

Now we are approaching Boris’s roadmap announcement I expect over the next 3 days there will be a ramp up in the media and in the popular opinion, that schools should not fully reopen.

All those stories about children being left behind losing a proper education will be once again forgotten about.

The BBC will interview parents who support schools staying closed, rather than those who wanted them open who they interviewed about a month ago

 

[py_megapixel]

Finally, somebody in the news talking sense about this issue:

Covid: Catch-up narrative putting 'huge pressure' on children, psychologists say

The British Psychological Society warns against reinforcing the notion that school pupils are "behind".

www.bbc.co.uk

"The notion that children need to catch up or are 'behind' at school due to the pandemic reinforces the idea that children have 'one shot' at their education and puts them under even more pressure to perform academically after what has been a challenging and unprecedented time for everyone,

"Formal lessons must of course continue, but we shouldn't simply expect children and young people to pick up where they've left off and 'catch up' immediately on any gaps in their learning.

"This places huge and unnecessary pressure on children who have been through an extraordinary and potentially stressful time."

 

[Ianno87]

Finally, somebody in the news talking sense about this issue:

Covid: Catch-up narrative putting 'huge pressure' on children, psychologists say

The British Psychological Society warns against reinforcing the notion that school pupils are "behind".

www.bbc.co.uk

For my 4 year old, I'm less fussed about his academic development (which has continued remarkably well anyway over the last couple of months) than things like his social and relationship development stagnating, which is difficult to replicate when stuck at home.

 

[yorkie]

This is a good article:

Covid: 'Children really need to get back into school'

Parents and teachers react as it is announced that all schools in England will reopen from 8 March.

www.bbc.co.uk

[Head teacher] Sue Wright "desperately" wants children back in school.

Shyla, a year five pupil at the school, says she has missed her friends and teachers during the latest lockdown.

The 10-year-old says the best thing about going back would be "just being around them again, and being able to "talk to them properly and not over Zoom or Skype".

Victoria, whose daughter Verity is in year four, is also looking forward to the return.

Nine-year-old Verity is ready to get back in the classroom.
"I haven't liked not seeing my friends," she says. "Also, my mummy's not a teacher.
"I will be ecstatic because I've really missed schoo

Peter Law is the principal at Comberton Village College, based just outside Cambridge.

He says staff would be "delighted" to have children back at the 1,900-pupil school, which caters for 11 to 18 year olds.

Don't listen to the small number of individuals who infest social media who claim to be teachers who are unhappy about going back; I doubt many of these people are really teachers, and even if they are, they are about as unrepresentative of the majority as you can get.

The above article is far more accurate on what most teachers, parents and students really think about going back on the 8th.

 

[Gathursty]

I'm happy to go back on the 8th March. I imagined Boris' gradual approach would be primary school first then secondary school years etc... like Scotland and Wales have done but we will see who is right in a couple of weeks.

 

[sjpowermac]

I wonder if the DfE can actually make any decision without it turning into a complete farce?

Announcing its plans this week for a full reopening of schools on 8 March, the government promised a series of measures designed to enhance Covid safety, including twice-weekly testing for secondary pupils and a recommendation to wear face coverings in classrooms. However, school leaders complained to the Guardian that the message was undermined when the school standards minister, Nick Gibb, admitted in television interviews on Thursday that neither were compulsory and it was up to parents to decide.

English school leaders despair over new rules on Covid tests and masks

Teachers concerned that measures are unenforceable and some parents may withhold consent for regular testing

www.theguardian.com

In summary, the DfE created a whole load of aggravation for schools for little discernible benefit. Plus ça change.

For the avoidance of doubt, I don’t support the use of face masks in school at all and I don’t support lateral flow tests in school either. @farleigh has previously pointed out that I sometimes change my mind on things, so to save them time in dredging up old posts, I’ll admit that I’ve previously thought both might help in keeping schools open/reducing the spread of the virus. Having seen the practicalities of both, I’m less convinced.


And before @theironroad pops up with another post to tell me I’m a danger to transport and shop workers, I’ve been doing the LFT twice a week as encouraged by school, wear a face mask in areas where it is recommended and I follow all of the guidelines at all time (I’m still awaiting an apology for the outrageous outburst back in January!).

Not sure if you're a teacher or not but while you may well have a cavalier attitude to your own risk of contracting covid going to work, the cavalierr attitude if you pass it on asymptomatically is worrying. I'd certainly not want to be the transport worker, supermarket worker or someone else coming into contact with you.