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philosopher

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Unfortunately, here we go again, with yet another thread that just echoes round in circles based on the flimsiest of posts.

I actually work in a secondary school and prior to the end of term I phoned the parents of each child in my form group. This was to give them an outline of the practical arrangements the school intended to make and also to check on any welfare problems. I didn’t come across any parent or child that wasn’t looking forward to schools fully reopening.

One fifth of my form group I had seen on a regular basis since they attended school from late May onwards since their parents are ‘key workers’. My school made an increasingly generous interpretation of ‘key worker’ and ultimately we did struggle a bit to accommodate everyone (this was due to government imposed measures regarding social distancing). I certainly didn’t detect any lack of willingness to send children to school.

Naturally, this is circumstantial evidence and perhaps my school is unique, but I doubt it.

Your experience does sound different from this poll, however I do not think the results of a poll can just be dismissed as flimsy.
 
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yorkie

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The media, including social media, gives a platform to a vocal minority, who are not at all representative.

I think that we will soon discover that the number of parents who actually refuse to send children to school , or refuse to cooperate in vaccinations , is actually going to be very low.

As for the teaching unions, I'm not sure what they have or haven't said (a link and quote would be useful as required by forum rules) but I suspect they are not representative of the actual thoughts of most teachers.

My union isn't too bad but they do talk some rubbish and I wouldn't consider doing everything they ask me to do as I would look like an idiot.
The poster said that a cold is a coronavirus as is SARS-CoV-2 and said children were superspreaders of colds so could be superspreaders of SARS-CoV-2. My point is if that were the case I'd have had a lot of colds as would all my colleagues. As that isn't the case I don't think this has any bearing on spread of SARS-CoV-2
When you say "colds", what type of colds? Most "cold" infections are caused by rhinoviruses.
 

sjpowermac

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Your experience does sound different from this poll, however I do not think the results of a poll can just be dismissed as flimsy.
I apologise for using the word ‘flimsy’, for all I know it might well have been a very scientific poll.

Perhaps we can revisit the poll once we see what happens once schools fully reopen in September?
You didn't suggest routine testing. One of the teaching unions has (although it's the same one that suggested spraying children with disinfectant)






And by the look of things, the children's commissioner too

Back in May several posters on the forum lined up to tell us all that the militant teachers were preventing children from returning to school. Nothing was further from the truth. The vast majority of schools opened to Years 1, 6, 10 and 12 on the exact date the government told them to.

The reality has been, and I assure you will continue to be, that the teaching unions have next to no power. If you believe otherwise, perhaps you would be kind enough to quote a recent example of where the teaching unions have called successful industrial action? The latest I can think of was in the mid-1980s when they campaigned for teachers to be able to have a lunch break.

Schools will open in September, end of.
 
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RomeoCharlie71

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This is a consensus statement from the Chief Medical Officers and Deputy Chief Medical Officers of England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales on the current evidence of risks and benefits to health from schools and childcare settings reopening.

It takes into account UK and international studies, and summaries of the scientific literature from SAGE, the DELVE Group of the Royal Society, the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, and data from the Office for National Statistics.

The current global pandemic means that there are no risk-free options, but it is important that parents and teachers understand the balance of risks to achieve the best course of action for their children.

Children
We are confident that multiple sources of evidence show that a lack of schooling increases inequalities, reduces the life chances of children and can exacerbate physical and mental health issues. School improves health, learning, socialisation and opportunities throughout the life course including employment. It has not been possible to reduce societal inequalities through the provision of home-based education alone. School attendance is very important for children and young people.

We are confident in the extensive evidence that there is an exceptionally small risk of children of primary or secondary school age dying from COVID-19. The infection fatality rate (proportion of those who are infected who die) for those aged 5 to 14 is estimated at 14 per million, lower than for most seasonal flu infections. Every death of a child is a tragedy but COVID-19 deaths in children and teenagers are fortunately extremely rare and almost all deaths are in children with significant pre-existing health conditions.

We are confident that there is clear evidence of a very low rate of severe disease in children of primary and secondary school ages compared to adults, even if they catch COVID-19. The percentage of symptomatic cases requiring hospitalisation is estimated to be 0.1% for children aged 0 to 9 and 0.3% among those aged 10 to 19, compared to a hospitalisation rate of over 4% in the UK for the general population. Most of these children make a rapid recovery.

We are confident that there is clear evidence from many studies that the great majority of children and teenagers who catch COVID-19 have mild symptoms or no symptoms at all.

I haven't quoted it all as it's quite a lengthy statement. Glad to see the CMO taking a balanced approach and recognising that children losing out on education is potentially more harmful than them contracting the virus themselves.

In addition, much as much as I expected, no mention of face coverings or masks at all. I wonder what the CMO (and Deputy CMOs) think of face coverings, as they've been rather quiet since they were mandated first on public transport in mid-June.
 

sjpowermac

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I haven't quoted it all as it's quite a lengthy statement. Glad to see the CMO taking a balanced approach and recognising that children losing out on education is potentially more harmful than them contracting the virus themselves.

In addition, much as much as I expected, no mention of face coverings or masks at all. I wonder what the CMO (and Deputy CMOs) think of face coverings, as they've been rather quiet since they were mandated first on public transport in mid-June.
Who is it that you believe is arguing against the full reopening of schools?
 

RomeoCharlie71

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Who is it that you believe is arguing against the full reopening of schools?
The vocal minority. After the odd case popping up here and there in Scotland over the past 10 days, Facebook posts have been littered with comments such as "OMG should have stuck with blended learning", "poor teachers at so much risk", "I'm taking my kids out of school I'm not risking their lives!" and "no FACTS in the classroom it's ridiculous!".

(FACTS, are the "five golden rules" for a "safer Scotland")
 

sjpowermac

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The vocal minority. After the odd case popping up here and there in Scotland over the past 10 days, Facebook posts have been littered with comments such as "OMG should have stuck with blended learning", "poor teachers at so much risk", "I'm taking my kids out of school I'm not risking their lives!" and "no FACTS in the classroom it's ridiculous!".

(FACTS, are the "five golden rules" for a "safer Scotland")
Many thanks for your reply. I’m immune to Facebook comments on the virus. I do have an account, but only ever use it for railway Gen.
 

thejuggler

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Had my daughter's "back to school" handbook yesterday.

Half covers whole school, arrival and departure procedures, which entrances to use, hand washing, advice for parents picking up etc.

The other half is year specific information. Each year is now allocated a corridor of classrooms in the school and external areas for breaks and lunch, extra toilets installed. An additional area has been set up as a new dining room and lunchtimes have been staggered.

All looks very straightforwards and well thought through.
 

Justin Smith

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There are other issues about students and new school starters which have not been considered as widely as they should. For students who are starting this term, all the social events will be cancelled or massively curtailed and more lessons might be undertaken "online. How are all these students (most living away from their home area) going to make friends other than within their own classes ? I predict a higher drop out rate and an increase in suicides amongst students.
And what about pupils starting school for the first time this year (i.e. 4/5 year olds). They are going to find it more difficult to make friends and so are the parents, and the latter is not a minor issue, many parents have to become friends for child care reasons.
Covid : the biggest overreaction in the history of the world.....
 

Ianno87

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And what about pupils starting school for the first time this year (i.e. 4/5 year olds). They are going to find it more difficult to make friends and so are the parents, and the latter is not a minor issue, many parents have to become friends for child care reasons.
Covid : the biggest overreaction in the history of the world.....

My son is starting at school, and the classroom environment will be pretty much "business as usual", save for some minor things like seperated toilets from other year groups.
 

adc82140

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Most headteachers are sensible. It's only the small minority of oddballs that get reported on.
 

Justin Smith

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My son is starting at school, and the classroom environment will be pretty much "business as usual", save for some minor things like seperated toilets from other year groups.

Schools are going to emphasise to parents that they (and their kids) should not be mixing "outside of their bubbles". They did this for our us when our lad went full time back in June (he'd been part time up to then). It was even required that all parents turn up at staggered times and walk round a one way system (in my view a complete load of unnecessary cobblers, but what can you do ?). That sounds like something and nothing, but in actual fact it is. "Playdates" (for the kids) are how the parents get to know each other and kids get to know other kids outside of their class. Furthermore some parents seem quite negative about playdates even with kids from the same "bubble", particularly if the playdate is indoors, which it must be if the weather is poor.
Certainly for our 7 year old the school experience was no where near business as usual, though positively, he didn't seem to mind it as much as I thought he would.
 
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Had Jeremy Corbyn been elected or if we had a Labour Government the teaching unions would have been taking a different stance I've little doubt . I feel some in the leadership of the teaching Unions not necessarily the teachers in every case , will happily use schoolkids as pawns in their agenda just to stick it to the Tories at any oppprtunity and what better time to do it. The same lot hate ofsted etc as God forbid they should ever be held to account , but that's a different discussion.
 

sjpowermac

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Had Jeremy Corbyn been elected or if we had a Labour Government the teaching unions would have been taking a different stance I've little doubt . I feel some in the leadership of the teaching Unions not necessarily the teachers in every case , will happily use schoolkids as pawns in their agenda just to stick it to the Tories at any oppprtunity and what better time to do it. The same lot hate ofsted etc as God forbid they should ever be held to account , but that's a different discussion.
I invite you to reference for us the last time that the teaching unions undertook successful industrial action.

If you are not successful with that, (though I’ve given you the answer earlier in the thread) perhaps you could reference the last time a government of any hue took the slightest bit of notice of anything the teaching unions said.
 

Justin Smith

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Had Jeremy Corbyn been elected or if we had a Labour Government the teaching unions would have been taking a different stance I've little doubt . I feel some in the leadership of the teaching Unions not necessarily the teachers in every case , will happily use schoolkids as pawns in their agenda just to stick it to the Tories at any oppprtunity and what better time to do it. The same lot hate ofsted etc as God forbid they should ever be held to account , but that's a different discussion.

I don't think it's that at all. I think it's far more likely that people have an over inflated sense of risk these days, and the unions, rightly or wrongly, play along with their members wishes, or what they think are their members wishes. There are a lot of (unnecessarily) worried people out there, this government are mainly responsible for that with their concerted efforts to scare everyone into staying at home during the lockdown etc. I warned then it'd come back to bite them on the bum, and it has.
As regards the Labour party I am as certain as I can be they would have been even more "risk averse", and therefore the problem would be even worse.
 
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I invite you to reference for us the last time that the teaching unions undertook successful industrial action.

If you are not successful with that, (though I’ve given you the answer earlier in the thread) perhaps you could reference the last time a government of any hue took the slightest bit of notice of anything the teaching unions said.
I actually wasn't talking about Industrial Action just politics. The teaching unions have the upper hand for once, just look at the u turn today over masks in the classroom which they want (not on the agenda until.this week), good luck with enforcing that.

I've sadly lost a lot of respect for much of the teaching profession, the continued stories I am hearing from multiple parents about the lack of work and suppprt provided to kids since lockdown are just a total disgrace. Some state schools have done a good job so it can be done.Youll be pleased I'm saying no more on the subject.
 

thejuggler

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Has the u turn on masks in English schools been announced yet? Its only a matter of time as various Ministers have been denying it will happen for two days.
 

adc82140

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Has Michael Gove denied it? That normally means that something WILL happen
 

sjpowermac

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I actually wasn't talking about Industrial Action just politics. The teaching unions have the upper hand for once, just look at the u turn today over masks in the classroom which they want (not on the agenda until.this week), good luck with enforcing that.

I've sadly lost a lot of respect for much of the teaching profession, the continued stories I am hearing from multiple parents about the lack of work and suppprt provided to kids since lockdown are just a total disgrace. Some state schools have done a good job so it can be done.Youll be pleased I'm saying no more on the subject.
The change today has absolutely zero to do with anything that the teaching unions have said. The teaching unions are organisations that have stood by and watched as pensions and working conditions for teachers have been rapidly eroded. The noise the unions have made recently is simply to give the impression of doing something and justifying the fees they charge to members. The teaching unions do not have the upper hand.

Would you care to provide some evidence of your claims about lack of work and guidance provided?
 
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thejuggler

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As predicted but only a part introduction of masks in schools. The advice only applies to secondary schools in lockdown areas.

No explanation from Government why and an apparent lack of understanding that the virus doesn't appreciate lines on maps, schools are built near to these lines on maps and pupils cross these lines to go to school.
 

yorkie

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As predicted but only a part introduction of masks in schools. The advice only applies to secondary schools in lockdown areas.

No explanation from Government why and an apparent lack of understanding that the virus doesn't appreciate lines on maps, schools are built near to these lines on maps and pupils cross these lines to go to school.
This is under discussion in the face coverings thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/uk-face-coverings-discussion.206902/page-97

....I've sadly lost a lot of respect for much of the teaching profession.....
Don't let the vocal minority cloud the fact that the vast majority do a fantastic job and do want the best for young people.
...the continued stories I am hearing from multiple parents about the lack of work and suppprt provided to kids since lockdown are just a total disgrace....
I would take caution when listening to any such concerns; I am not denying some schools won't have done well enough, but I think you will find the majority have done the best they could under very difficult circumstances.
 
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thejuggler

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Once again Government pull a blinder.

Some schools are back next Tuesday, schools have spent last week advising parents and pupils on the new procedures so everyone is ready.

Friday evening. Government release a whole new raft of guidance around what happens if a pupil tests positive. Potentially two weeks isolation for a whole year group.
 

brad465

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Once again Government pull a blinder.

Some schools are back next Tuesday, schools have spent last week advising parents and pupils on the new procedures so everyone is ready.

Friday evening. Government release a whole new raft of guidance around what happens if a pupil tests positive. Potentially two weeks isolation for a whole year group.
Here's a link to a report on this development:


A single confirmed case of coronavirus in a school in England, could mean sending home an entire year group, according to new government guidance.

It says a confirmed case could mean all the pupils in the same "bubble" having to isolate for 14 days.

In areas with a local lockdown, secondary pupils could be put on a rota of two weeks in and out of school.

The guidance, published on Friday night, comes a few days before millions of pupils go back to school.

Education Secretary Gavin Williamson said these were contingency plans for a "worst case scenario".

I agree this is somewhat extreme, and in the event of a second wave/spike, this idea of closing out whole year groups will be extremely disruptive if they make decisions solely on cases.
 

DB

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They've had months to plan this, and as usual it's a last-minute fudge lacking in logic or consistency.
 

Richard Scott

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Once again Government pull a blinder.

Some schools are back next Tuesday, schools have spent last week advising parents and pupils on the new procedures so everyone is ready.

Friday evening. Government release a whole new raft of guidance around what happens if a pupil tests positive. Potentially two weeks isolation for a whole year group.
How ridiculous, things are getting worse not better. So if the whole year group is an exam group then that's another two weeks out of the window? They'll be expected to work from home, I suppose? I'm glad I'm not of school age.
 

sjpowermac

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Could they? There seems to be little evidence for it occuring much at all, never mind "many".

Well plenty of children have been using public transport over past few months and not seeing any massive rises. There are also no known cases where a pupil has passes the virus onto a teacher. Think this is not worth worrying about. Last thing we need is government jumping on another bandwagon.

Do be hurt, you need to level up again for those. In the meantime we shall see, as the virus spreads further through our population, so hospitalisations & deaths reduce. Its all there in the data.
I’ve been a tad busy of late, so I’m somewhat out of the virus loop. Perhaps one of you would be kind enough to give an update on the predictions that you made in the late summer?

For the avoidance of doubt, from about May onwards I fully supported the re-opening of schools.
 

Richard Scott

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I’ve been a tad busy of late, so I’m somewhat out of the virus loop. Perhaps one of you would be kind enough to give an update on the predictions that you made in the late summer?

For the avoidance of doubt, from about May onwards I fully supported the re-opening of schools.
Local school has had 4 cases recently all attributed, I believe, to other family members so not from fellow pupils or public transport.
 

sjpowermac

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Local school has had 4 cases recently all attributed, I believe, to other family members so not from fellow pupils or public transport.
Thank you for telling me about your local school, appreciated.

I’ve tried to catch up with the threads, but I’m struggling a bit to find out what sectors people believe have caused cases/hospitalisations/deaths to rise again. I’ve read that hospitality is being scapegoated, is that true of schools and universities too?
 
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