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Revised EMR Regional Timetables - From 19th June

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Andy Pacer

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BBC East Midlands News did a report on Friday and EMR's excuses were: Covid - sorry but that won't wash anymore - also, 'Late delivery of new trains'
Er...What new trains would they be for EMR Regional?

Absolute tripe but they know an unsuspecting public will swallow it!
I also wondered about this, I can only assume they were loosely referring to "new to EMR" trains (ie 170s) and that the knock on is getting the training done. Doesn't make it any less poor, in fact just makes them look sillier.
 
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ChrisC

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The Robin Hood Line also does very badly with this timetable change. This time it is even worse than the Covid timetable. There is now just an hourly train all day between Nottingham and Worksop as all those terminating at Mansfield Woodhouse have been withdrawn including those at peak times. If all restrictions are hopefully removed on 19th July I can see real overcrowding at peak times and on Saturday afternoons.

Southbound, into Nottingham, all trains call at every station including Newstead and Bulwell but the northbound timetable is a mess with no trains calling at Newstead for much of the day and even the 1725 train at peak time misses out the Newstead stop. Also the ridiculous situation of a peak time train in the morning not calling Hucknall has not been rectified with it passing through the station at 20mph leaving a 2 hour gap in the morning peak without a northbound train.

Usually the excuse given for trains missing stops at Newstead and Bulwell and indeed the peak time train which is now missing out Hucknall is the constraints of the single line. Very strange that all these trains are going to be able to stop at all stations on Saturdays.
 

A0wen

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I also wondered about this, I can only assume they were loosely referring to "new to EMR" trains (ie 170s) and that the knock on is getting the training done. Doesn't make it any less poor, in fact just makes them look sillier.

Well given a mix of rolling stock not released to EMR in time and Covid limiting the amount of training they could do, what would you suggest they did differently?
 

Andy Pacer

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Well given a mix of rolling stock not released to EMR in time and Covid limiting the amount of training they could do, what would you suggest they did differently?
Not implying that the passengers who have lost their service have done so because they are having new trains!
 

LowLevel

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Did it assume that guards (and drivers) would do training of Class 170s and that others would cover their colleagues on overtime? Of course the guards are in dispute so no overtime but it undermines the whole plan?

Guards despite being in dispute are very much working overtime to keep the wheels turning. Sundays are being left to the management to deal with, everything else is basically as normal.
 

A0wen

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Not implying that the passengers who have lost their service have done so because they are having new trains!

Though it's true in that the rolling stock is new to EMR and as a result they need to train their crews on it - which has been impeded for the reasons I mentioned.
 

bunnahabhain

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A suspicious person may wonder if that has something to do with it being a very cheap ticket that will get you through the gates at Derby Station...
I don't recall ever encountering such a fiddle with the tickets. The most likely candidates to find without a ticket on departure from Derby have gateline passes.
 

LowLevel

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It was all going wrong from day one, really. The Anglian fleet cascade went to pot so the 156s planned to displace the 153s were delayed. ScotRail were struggling so didn't release the 5 170s on time to allow training to begin, with the added problem that starting training too early before service introduction would create additional risks with unfamiliarity and lapse of competency for early trainees - 5 very tired trains does not constitute a reliable fleet.

WMR ordered CAF trains with predictable results, so those 170s are going to be several years late by the time they finally all arrive. The Southern ones were torpedoed by not having a robust replacement plan. The Welsh ones will fill most of the gap but with no timescale as yet. COVID rather than throwing a spanner into the workings just finished the job with a jackhammer. None of the 170s, ex Central Trains or Scotland have ever had a large scale overhaul in any respect and they're 20 years old so mechanical reliability has been slipping for some time before they even arrived.

A reasonable number of very senior drivers at Nottingham have retired during the last 2 years holding significant amounts of route knowledge and there just hasn't been the ability to train up the junior drivers to the same level to replace them. More are looking to follow before too long thanks to the Government's cuts agenda - they want to be taking their pensions before they have a chance to mess with them.

It is going to take some time to fix it. Anglia eventually came good and their service has come on leaps and bounds with the impressive FLIRTs - hopefully the combination of COVID recovery and these issues at EMR will not prevent it from rebounding in the coming months.

As I've said before - it is very distressing to watch the service fall apart for everyone from the frontline grades to the very top.
 

Andy Pacer

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Though it's true in that the rolling stock is new to EMR and as a result they need to train their crews on it - which has been impeded for the reasons I mentioned.
Indeed. Not much concelation to the people who, like myself, have found their commuter trains now cancelled.
 

LowLevel

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A suspicious person may wonder if that has something to do with it being a very cheap ticket that will get you through the gates at Derby Station...

The pre COVID very busy platform at Spondon boarding the morning peak services towards Nottingham would suggest otherwise. There were a steady stream of people getting off westbound trains going to local factories too plus a number boarding heading to places like Burton and Birmingham. The poor service lead to a number of people boarding at Spondon choosing to buy their tickets from Derby to allow them to start or return to there instead further impacting the figures.

It'll never be the same as the days of British Celanese but it had a very robust passenger base for a station with minimal service which is why I suspect EMR took the chance on improving the train service - the roads around Derby are horrible.
 

bunnahabhain

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Did it assume that guards (and drivers) would do training of Class 170s and that others would cover their colleagues on overtime? Of course the guards are in dispute so no overtime but it undermines the whole plan?
Guards are in dispute but there's no OT ban at all, if we weren't working overtime then things would be much worse than they are now, some days since the May TT change the daily sheets have been posted with 10+ vacancies over approx 55 running turns.
 

Andy Pacer

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The pre COVID very busy platform at Spondon boarding the morning peak services towards Nottingham would suggest otherwise. There were a steady stream of people getting off westbound trains going to local factories too plus a number boarding heading to places like Burton and Birmingham.

It'll never be the same as the days of British Celanese but it had a very robust passenger base for a station with minimal service which is why I suspect EMR took the chance on improving the train service - the roads around Derby are horrible.
I'd definitely agree with this from my experience, and even the fairly quick Trent Barton bus service into Derby is nowhere near as convenient, and I'd already made my point of people travelling onwards toward Birmingham, although if XC are adding some calls then this would be covered off, although not part of the EMR masterplan.
 

43055

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EMR have posted the additional Cross Country calls at Spondon and Attenborough in the comments section of the timetable change post on Facebook.

Monday to Friday:
Spondon:
1V03 0600 Nottingham - Cardiff
1D51 0649 Birmingham - Nottingham
1G54 1741 Nottingham - Birmingham
1M84 1845 Cardiff - Nottingham

Attenborough:
1V03 0600 Nottingham - Cardiff
1V04 0740 Nottingham - Cardiff

Saturday:
Spondon:
1V03 0600 Nottingham - Cardiff
1D50 0619 Birmingham - Nottingham
1G12 0841 Nottingham - Birmingham
1G83 1932 Nottingham - Birmingham
1M84 1845 Cardiff - Nottingham

Attenborough:
1V03 0600 Nottingham - Cardiff
 

DDB

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EMR have posted the additional Cross Country calls at Spondon and Attenborough in the comments section of the timetable change post on Facebook.

Monday to Friday:
Spondon:
1V03 0600 Nottingham - Cardiff
1D51 0649 Birmingham - Nottingham
1G54 1741 Nottingham - Birmingham
1M84 1845 Cardiff - Nottingham

Attenborough:
1V03 0600 Nottingham - Cardiff
1V04 0740 Nottingham - Cardiff

Saturday:
Spondon:
1V03 0600 Nottingham - Cardiff
1D50 0619 Birmingham - Nottingham
1G12 0841 Nottingham - Birmingham
1G83 1932 Nottingham - Birmingham
1M84 1845 Cardiff - Nottingham

Attenborough:
1V03 0600 Nottingham - Cardiff

I had to drag that out of them. It isn't in a helpful format for normal people and 1G54 is an unadvertised stop so doesn't appear in journey planners but because it exists there isn't a bus in that slot.

It is a shambles.
 

ChrisC

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I had to drag that out of them. It isn't in a helpful format for normal people and 1G54 is an unadvertised stop so doesn't appear in journey planners but because it exists there isn't a bus in that slot.

It is a shambles.
A complete shambles!
I wonder how many people this week will buy a return ticket, and board the hourly train from Newstead to Nottingham, only to find that there are very few trains that stop at Newstead in the opposite direction for the return journey. A gap of 8 hours without a north bound train stopping between the 0825 departure from Nottingham and the 1625. Then the busy peak time 1725 does not stop. As I said in my previous post it’s strange that they can all stop on Saturdays.
 

WesternLancer

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We need some MPs, councillors and mayors kicking up a fuss about this but sadly this doesn't seem to happen in the East Midlands.

It does appear that there is more going off than EMR are telling us. The new timetable is worse than anything during the lockdowns. Why could the service not revert back to that? Instead we have deeper cuts when usage was starting to go up.

Going forwards I don't think Abellio should be allowed anywhere near another train company without serious questions being asked. They seem to have a history of making the same errors
Lilian Greenwood MP has been on the case by the looks of it - https://twitter.com/LilianGreenwood/status/1406297742255833094
 

clagmonster

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It was all going wrong from day one, really. The Anglian fleet cascade went to pot so the 156s planned to displace the 153s were delayed. ScotRail were struggling so didn't release the 5 170s on time to allow training to begin, with the added problem that starting training too early before service introduction would create additional risks with unfamiliarity and lapse of competency for early trainees - 5 very tired trains does not constitute a reliable fleet.

WMR ordered CAF trains with predictable results, so those 170s are going to be several years late by the time they finally all arrive. The Southern ones were torpedoed by not having a robust replacement plan. The Welsh ones will fill most of the gap but with no timescale as yet. COVID rather than throwing a spanner into the workings just finished the job with a jackhammer. None of the 170s, ex Central Trains or Scotland have ever had a large scale overhaul in any respect and they're 20 years old so mechanical reliability has been slipping for some time before they even arrived.

A reasonable number of very senior drivers at Nottingham have retired during the last 2 years holding significant amounts of route knowledge and there just hasn't been the ability to train up the junior drivers to the same level to replace them. More are looking to follow before too long thanks to the Government's cuts agenda - they want to be taking their pensions before they have a chance to mess with them.

It is going to take some time to fix it. Anglia eventually came good and their service has come on leaps and bounds with the impressive FLIRTs - hopefully the combination of COVID recovery and these issues at EMR will not prevent it from rebounding in the coming months.

As I've said before - it is very distressing to watch the service fall apart for everyone from the frontline grades to the very top.
The lack of Southern 170s should have been foreseen at the bidding stage - there was way that the battery EU scheme put forward was remotely likely to come to fruition by this stage. There was also seemingly no contingency for the new fleets at Tyesley or on Anglia to be delayed - a seemingly inevitable part of fleet introduction. It is unfortunate that, with the disqualification of the other bids at the bidding stage over the pension issues, there was no competition. Of course, we do not know how deliverable those other bids would have been - it seemed inevitable at that stage that the 156s would come from Crown Point so those issues at least would have occured come what may.

I do feel sorry for both the current management and the front line staff, plus those poor sods in control who must be semi-permanently stuck between and a hard place. The company at the minute, seems to have not only been dealt a bad hand but not given any cards at all. Even going back to the old timetable avoiding use of 170s probably wouldn't work without the 153s.

The question is how to get out of the mess. The crews who sign 170s must surely have to work them otherwise they will run out of competency. Put them in service though and you risk a crew who don't sign them finding one on their train. Similarly with route knowledge - keep the likes of Norwich off the Robin Hood to avoid them coming across 170s until trained and you end up with route knowledge issues a few months down the line.

Even as a user group chair who should be shouting at the management, in our case over unit reliability, I really do sypathise. Hopefully it will come good eventually, but in the meantime, there are passengers being put off and it will take a lot to win them back.
 

js1000

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Even more confused this morning is that the 12:57 from Norwich to Liverpool appears to be running later today despite it being listed as one of the culled services. The other services between Norwich-Liverpool have been removed completely. Seems as if the timetable they issued on Friday may have been revised already. Outside pressure of some sort?
 

DDB

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I turned up at Derby station by trian this morning. There are no signs to indicate which exit leads towards the replacement buses. The staff member on the gateline that leads to the buses didn't even know the buses existed. They seemed put out when I suggested that they should know about them.
That isn't covid or lack of drivers that's poor management.
 

edwin_m

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The lack of Southern 170s should have been foreseen at the bidding stage - there was way that the battery EU scheme put forward was remotely likely to come to fruition by this stage. There was also seemingly no contingency for the new fleets at Tyesley or on Anglia to be delayed - a seemingly inevitable part of fleet introduction. It is unfortunate that, with the disqualification of the other bids at the bidding stage over the pension issues, there was no competition. Of course, we do not know how deliverable those other bids would have been - it seemed inevitable at that stage that the 156s would come from Crown Point so those issues at least would have occured come what may.

I do feel sorry for both the current management and the front line staff, plus those poor sods in control who must be semi-permanently stuck between and a hard place. The company at the minute, seems to have not only been dealt a bad hand but not given any cards at all. Even going back to the old timetable avoiding use of 170s probably wouldn't work without the 153s.

The question is how to get out of the mess. The crews who sign 170s must surely have to work them otherwise they will run out of competency. Put them in service though and you risk a crew who don't sign them finding one on their train. Similarly with route knowledge - keep the likes of Norwich off the Robin Hood to avoid them coming across 170s until trained and you end up with route knowledge issues a few months down the line.

Even as a user group chair who should be shouting at the management, in our case over unit reliability, I really do sypathise. Hopefully it will come good eventually, but in the meantime, there are passengers being put off and it will take a lot to win them back.
The franchise bidding process, hopefully now dead and buried, more or less required that the bidders made unrealistic assumptions if they were to have a hope of winning. This is most clearly seen in the revenue projections but also applies to delivery issues such as where to get the rolling stock, and also to assumptions regarding timely (or any) completion of infrastructure works. As they are not the bidder's problem, the bidder is off the hook in the likely event that they don't happen, which provides an excuse to re-open negotiation as it's usually about the same time the franchise's finances start looking sick.
 

STINT47

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I think that this is the problem with franchising. To win you have to promise a lot, to do it quicker than your competitors and for a cheaper price.

The DFT then takes this as it's the best bid. For a year or two things go ok but then when the time comes to deliver the promises reality bites and the service falls apart. They then renegotiate, end up with a more realistic plan and the service leading passengers to wonder what was the point in franchising?
 

BrianW

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I think that this is the problem with franchising. To win you have to promise a lot, to do it quicker than your competitors and for a cheaper price.

The DFT then takes this as it's the best bid. For a year or two things go ok but then when the time comes to deliver the promises reality bites and the service falls apart. They then renegotiate, end up with a more realistic plan and the service leading passengers to wonder what was the point in franchising?
That's what you get with any kind of 'competitive tendering'. In public works construction before we got to 'best value' assessments, you would have typically six firms tender for the work based on drawings and a bill of quantities, so all on the same basis, and five firms didn't think it could be done for the price quoted by the 'winner'. Unsurprising then that there would be 'issues' about errors, omissions, delays, 'extras', ... because it wasn't possible to 'trust'. We're getting what we voted for. Free lunch anyone?
 

ChrisC

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EMR online timetables are still showing most Robin Hood Line northbound trains as not stopping at Newstead. However, according to the National Rail Live Trains app all trains are stopping at Newstead. I haven’t been to any RHL station this week so don’t know if the timetables on the stations are the same as those on the EMR website.
 

edwin_m

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I think that this is the problem with franchising. To win you have to promise a lot, to do it quicker than your competitors and for a cheaper price.

The DFT then takes this as it's the best bid. For a year or two things go ok but then when the time comes to deliver the promises reality bites and the service falls apart. They then renegotiate, end up with a more realistic plan and the service leading passengers to wonder what was the point in franchising?
You also have to make sure that any risks outside your own control are recorded as assumptions that the client has to "own", so if they turn out not to be true you don't get it in the neck for something not your fault. If you have to take on a big risk you can't control, you structure your company so it goes bankrupt if it arises (which DfT has tried to stop by imposing penalties and guarantees) or whack in a price premium to cover it (not good value for the public procurer).
 

Deafdoggie

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On the Crewe route the last train out of Crewe is 21:20. Do the last 2 trains of the night that arrive in Crewe at 22:00 and 23:00 now work the first 2 trains out of Crewe the next morning? Presumably these 2 trains stay in Crewe platform 3 / 4 overnight?
Two trains have always stabled overnight at Crewe, this hasn't changed. The crew taxi in and out from Derby/Nottingham.
 

Mugby

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When the service reductions were announced, the 50% cuts on some routes were just about the limit of what EMR could reasonably get away with.

Now it's becoming apparent that they can't even maintain the remaining levels of service, what's to be done? Presumably the cuts had to be agreed and approved by the DfT, will services be reduced even further? Personally, I would like to see a list of all possible alternative journeys available in the event of cancellations together with an absolute guarantee of ticket acceptance without question.

As I posted in the other thread, four hour gaps in the Crewe service, also cancellation of the last rain of the day is beyond what is tolerable, apologies simply aren't enough. EMR seem to be downplaying the whole affair...'It's only temporary'.... really? six months? There's a list of the reduced timetables on their website but it's not immediately obvious, the facts about the shambles should be the first thing you see in bold letters, they should be made to do this.
Living in the heart of EMR land, I'm not at all happy about being unable to plan any journeys without the risk of being stranded somewhere - yes, we know there is a responsibility to get you home but it's necessarily as straightforward as some might imagine.
 

morgainelive

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Granted there's still a lot of covid issues and this hampers staff availability but surely they have not learnt lessons from previous operators they shouldn't have sent off the 153s off lease before enough 170s were available / had spares to ensure Norwich to Liverpools got 4 cars to avoid crowding but of course it's sometimes not their decision. I have friends who have said the Norwich to Liverpools are very vey busy and a nightmare at the moment.
 

cnjb8

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I am so disappointed with this, need to go from Nottingham to Belper tomorrow and now I have to get a CrossCountry to Derby and change to get a Matlock train!
 

Mugby

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I am so disappointed with this, need to go from Nottingham to Belper tomorrow and now I have to get a CrossCountry to Derby and change to get a Matlock train!

Even Cross Country cancelled a Nottingham train yesterday, (Wednesday)
 
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