Revised EMR Regional Timetables - From 19th June

[MCR247]

Even Cross Country cancelled a Nottingham train yesterday, (Wednesday)

Been happening a fair bit with XC 170s struggling for availability recently

 

[STINT47]

I'm looking at making a Nottingham to Matlock trip this Saturday and according to the temporary timetable I need to change at Derby. However when I check times using the EMR journey planner it shows direct trains running as per the original timetable. Does anyone know which is correct?

 

[43055]

I'm looking at making a Nottingham to Matlock trip this Saturday and according to the temporary timetable I need to change at Derby. However when I check times using the EMR journey planner it shows direct trains running as per the original timetable. Does anyone know which is correct?

I'd be surprised if it was a Nottingham - Matlock service on Saturday. Real Time Trains and the EMR journey planner show the weekday timetable continuing into next week (Derby - Matlock only) so maybe the Saturday changes have not been inputted yet?

Looking on the Engineering Works page this is at the bottom of the page. Has the date for the end of the 'temporary' timetable as the 11/12/21.

 

[STINT47]

I'd be surprised if it was a Nottingham - Matlock service on Saturday. Real Time Trains and the EMR journey planner show the weekday timetable continuing into next week (Derby - Matlock only) so maybe the Saturday changes have not been inputted yet?

Looking on the Engineering Works page this is at the bottom of the page. Has the date for the end of the 'temporary' timetable as the 11/12/21.
View attachment 99117

Thank you. I think your right and the journey planner is wrong. It's disappointing that the correct times are not showing less than two days before.

 

[Scott1]

Thank you. I think your right and the journey planner is wrong. It's disappointing that the correct times are not showing less than two days before.

Its an issue with the journey planner, the Train line will also allow you to book services that no longer exist sometimes.

 

[Jozhua]

Just moved back to the East Midlands and am greeted by this absolute joy of a timetable...

I leave for three years and come back to find everything has gone to s***!

I suspect Nottingham Trams are doing quite well with the extra custom with people ditching the railways and driving to the P&R sites (Hucknall etc)

Nottingham Trams are busy enough as it is! - The park and ride sites are quiet though, traffic is lighter so anyone who could already drive is probably driving all the way in. The people this will worst affect are those who can't drive to places.

Another absolute cock up at the hands of the DfT. Since all the electrification got binned everywhere, the industry has been scrambling to cobble together a functional rolling stock strategy. Of course, every time Schapps comes out and lies that they are doing something they are clearly not, this just worsens the situation.

 

[DDB]

The situation is worse than it was at the height if the pandemic. Also EMR are managing it really badly.

Spondon has lost its comuter services for those coming form the East on Weekdays but they are still there on Saturday.

There are posters everywhere about the Sunday changes due to Industrial Action but none about this mess.

The timetables on the website to contain the replacemnt bus service or the extra XC stops and we are 2 weeks in. It is pathetic.

They appear to be doing passanger counts on the replacement buses while keeping them a secret. I'm concerned they will then be withdrawn claiming they weren't being used.

Any insider got any news of what is going on internally?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Another absolute cock up at the hands of the DfT. Since all the electrification got binned everywhere, the industry has been scrambling to cobble together a functional rolling stock strategy. Of course, every time Schapps comes out and lies that they are doing something they are clearly not, this just worsens the situation.

Could you clarify what the current EMR situation has to do with the pausing of electrification? The inter city lines have new bi-mode trains on order but seem to be doing OK with the 222s (and the 180s) for the time being and have been simplified by the completion of electrification to Corby.

The undoubted problems seem to all about the regional services that were never in scope for electrification at this juncture.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I'd be surprised if it was a Nottingham - Matlock service on Saturday. Real Time Trains and the EMR journey planner show the weekday timetable continuing into next week (Derby - Matlock only) so maybe the Saturday changes have not been inputted yet?

Looking on the Engineering Works page this is at the bottom of the page. Has the date for the end of the 'temporary' timetable as the 11/12/21.
View attachment 99117

How can it take them six months to sort this out? They moved to May TT change and tried to make it work so presumably they thought they could manage the resource limitations but then instigate the cutbacks when it was clear they couldn't. The least they should be doing is being called to account by local politicians to explain what action they are taking to sort out the deficiencies on each route affected and by when.

EMR on the MML mainline have done the business with getting drivers trained up for Corby in very good time so they clearly know what they are doing.

 

[Watershed]

How can it take them six months to sort this out? They moved to May TT change and tried to make it work so presumably they thought they could manage the resource limitations but then instigate the cutbacks when it was clear they couldn't. The least they should be doing is being called to account by local politicians to explain what action they are taking to sort out the deficiencies on each route affected and by when.

Set expectations low and then it's easy to exceed them...

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Set expectations low and then it's easy to exceed them...

Indeed but hardly putting the customer first and why commit to the May TT change only to have to admit defeat within a few weeks.

Still maybe this is what was meant by key outcome No.1 from the Shapps Williams review

1. A modern passenger experience.

 

[Jozhua]

Could you clarify what the current EMR situation has to do with the pausing of electrification? The inter city lines have new bi-mode trains on order but seem to be doing OK with the 222s (and the 180s) for the time being and have been simplified by the completion of electrification to Corby.

The undoubted problems seem to all about the regional services that were never in scope for electrification at this juncture.

Well, TOCs don't exist on an island, they rely on receiving rolling stock from other parts of the country. Pretty sure the old 15X units are going to Northern (which had loads of electrification cancelled), which has reduced rolling stock short term.

The other issue is the lack of a plan to deal with decarbonisation - there are limited numbers of new DMUs being introduced to the network, which makes sense if you consider at this point they will have working lives of less than 20 years if government targets are to be believed. Now we're playing a bit of a game of musical charis, trying to divy up the remaining DMUs, despite the fact that electric traction is not going to arrive anytime soon if the government doesn't get moving on a large, long term electrification programme quickly.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Well, TOCs don't exist on an island, they rely on receiving rolling stock from other parts of the country. Pretty sure the old 15X units are going to Northern (which had loads of electrification cancelled), which has reduced rolling stock short term.

So the delay/cancellation of the Windermere, Westhoughton and Stalybridge lines wiring has sucked enough 15x out of EMR to cause (or at least exacerbate) their current Regional problems?

Presumably as a DOR 'TOC' Northern can effectively pull rank on a mainstream 'emergency measures' operation?

Interesting.

 

[Ryry]

Surprised that emr aren't using platform 7 for the derby to matlock, surely this would free up 4 5 6 for the London , Crewe and Sheffield services

 

[trentvalley]

Surprised that emr aren't using platform 7 for the derby to matlock, surely this would free up 4 5 6 for the London , Crewe and Sheffield services

Is anything regularly timetabled to use platform 7?

 

[Scott1]

Is anything regularly timetabled to use platform 7?

No, design limitations if I recall correctly. It can be used for terminators but not continuing/starting passenger services. Can't remember why I'm afraid.

 

[Tomnick]

Surprised that emr aren't using platform 7 for the derby to matlock, surely this would free up 4 5 6 for the London , Crewe and Sheffield services

Passenger trains can't use 7 without special arrangements in place, as it's not protected (by trap points etc.) against anything coming off Etches Park without authority.

 

[43055]

Surprised that emr aren't using platform 7 for the derby to matlock, surely this would free up 4 5 6 for the London , Crewe and Sheffield services

Most Matlock's are using platforms 3B/4B which would normally see little or no use in the day now the Crewe services go to Newark. The occasional one goes on 5B and the 1633 on 2 for some reason. As stated above platform 7 can't be used without special arrangements in place.

 

[43055]

RMT have announced further dates for the Sunday strikes from the 18th July to 15th August. Unlike the pervious dates where a couple of trains were removed there will be some more substantial changes.
Temporary changes to EMR Regional services due to industrial action. | EMR | East Midlands Railway

Nottingham - Matlock - Runs Derby - Matlock only. First Cross Country service towards Nottingham is not until 1233!
Derby - Crewe - Replaced by buses throughout!
Lincoln - Nottingham - 1 service replaced by a bus.
Grantham - Nottingham - 1 service replaced by a bus.
Lincoln - Newark - 2 return trips replaced by a bus.
Nottingham - Mansfield - 3 trips replaced by buses.
Liverpool - Norwich - Runs between Grantham and Sheffield only!

 

[STINT47]

Nottingham - Matlock - Runs Derby - Matlock only. First Cross Country service towards Nottingham is not until 1233!

They say to use Cross Country services between Nottingham and Derby but on a Sunday these do not stop at Beeston, Attenborough or Long Eaton.

Beeston and Long Eaton will still get London trains stopping but Attenborough has effectively had it's Sunday service removed.

 

[30907]

They say to use Cross Country services between Nottingham and Derby but on a Sunday these do not stop at Beeston, Attenborough or Long Eaton.

Beeston and Long Eaton will still get London trains stopping but Attenborough has effectively had it's Sunday service removed.

In general, when there is industrial action, other TOCs are reluctant to alter their services. This tends to be seen as strike-breaking (and was the case pre privatisation IIRC).

 

[DDB]

They say to use Cross Country services between Nottingham and Derby but on a Sunday these do not stop at Beeston, Attenborough or Long Eaton.

Beeston and Long Eaton will still get London trains stopping but Attenborough has effectively had it's Sunday service removed.

And its had its weekday services pretty much removed by the regional cuts as well.

No doubt they will have posters about the RMT strike at Spondon station which doesn't have a Sunday service anyway but still no information about the cuts they have imposed on a week day or any indication there is a replacement bus or where you might find it.

 

[tommy2215]

In general, when there is industrial action, other TOCs are reluctant to alter their services. This tends to be seen as strike-breaking (and was the case pre privatisation IIRC).

For the last few months, CrossCountry have altered their 4 services to/from Aberdeen on Sundays so they stop at most stops between Haymarket and Aberdeen (the calls were removed in July 2020) due to the action by ScotRail staff.

 

[Killingworth]

When Northern were experiencing similar difficulties EMR made a few extra stops where there was enough slack in their timetable to do so - partially possible due to missing Northern trains. I understand there could be one or two similar actions by other operators in coming weeks, but not enough to cover anything like all the very significant gaps.

 

[ChrisC]

The revised EMR reduced timetables have now been operating for 4 weeks. How do people think it’s going?

I can only comment on what I have seen on the Robin Hood Line and these are my views. There certainly have not been anywhere near so many cancellations but time keeping is not improving. Almost every train throughout the day runs a few minutes late. Just looking at this morning, using Hucknall as an example, every train has been late departing by a few minutes, some around 6 or 7 minutes late with one delay of 14 minutes. The current hourly service is now has delays like this every single day, yet it wasn’t like this even when the half hourly service was operating for 20+ years pre covid.

I was chatting to a friend who is an EMR guard and I asked him why? His immediate answer was it’s the 170’s they can’t keep time with them. The gradients on the line, especially up through Bulwell, Hucknall and Newstead, along with frequent stops are creating a problem. He said that perhaps the units are just not in very good condition but they are not coping very well. He also added that time is also easily lost at stations with the door opening and closing procedures etc.

I also note that the 2200 from Nottingham to Worksop tonight is cancelled. There is a replacement bus but I really cannot see why, even calling at all stations, it’s going to take nearly 3 hours to get to Worksop, not arriving until 0049.

 

[Glenn1969]

Northern have Covid related issues of their own today with next to no trains running on some routes from Sheffield. Hope that doesn't compound the EMR issues

 

[tom1649]

I was chatting to a friend who is an EMR guard and I asked him why? His immediate answer was it’s the 170’s they can’t keep time with them. The gradients on the line, especially up through Bulwell, Hucknall and Newstead, along with frequent stops are creating a problem. He said that perhaps the units are just not in very good condition but they are not coping very well. He also added that time is also easily lost at stations with the door opening and closing procedures etc.

170's were used on the line back in Central Trains days and I don't remember them being late. Either their performance has deteriorated or the timetables have less slack than they used to. I'd have thought that the door positions on the 170's would speed up station dwell times on a stopping service, rather than slow them down. Again, in Central Trains days I don't remember door opening and closing procedures causing any problems.

 

[ChrisC]

170's were used on the line back in Central Trains days and I don't remember them being late. Either their performance has deteriorated or the timetables have less slack than they used to. I'd have thought that the door positions on the 170's would speed up station dwell times on a stopping service, rather than slow them down. Again, in Central Trains days I don't remember door opening and closing procedures causing any problems.

I can’t remember them being late back in Central Trains days either, but they are now, and something must be causing it. It’s got even worse this afternoon than it was this morning. Trains are leaving Nottingham on time, and losing about 2 minutes by each station and by the time they to Kirkby in Ashfield they are around 8 or 9 minutes late. Trains travelling south have been even worse today with delays of up to 15 minutes. This is when they are running an hourly service and as I said previously, this is happening nearly every day. You cannot any longer rely on them if you need a connection at Nottingham.

 

[RH Liner]

The revised EMR reduced timetables have now been operating for 4 weeks. How do people think it’s going?

I can only comment on what I have seen on the Robin Hood Line and these are my views. There certainly have not been anywhere near so many cancellations but time keeping is not improving. Almost every train throughout the day runs a few minutes late. Just looking at this morning, using Hucknall as an example, every train has been late departing by a few minutes, some around 6 or 7 minutes late with one delay of 14 minutes. The current hourly service is now has delays like this every single day, yet it wasn’t like this even when the half hourly service was operating for 20+ years pre covid.

I was chatting to a friend who is an EMR guard and I asked him why? His immediate answer was it’s the 170’s they can’t keep time with them. The gradients on the line, especially up through Bulwell, Hucknall and Newstead, along with frequent stops are creating a problem. He said that perhaps the units are just not in very good condition but they are not coping very well. He also added that time is also easily lost at stations with the door opening and closing procedures etc.

I also note that the 2200 from Nottingham to Worksop tonight is cancelled. There is a replacement bus but I really cannot see why, even calling at all stations, it’s going to take nearly 3 hours to get to Worksop, not arriving until 0049.

The 170s, as far as I can see, are simply not suitable for this line where stations are only a couple of miles apart. I’m no expert but I take on board the comments of people more knowledgeable than I, and I simply cannot see the need for an 100mph unit which thrives on longer distances between stops. Lower top speed but better acceleration is needed on this line, maybe 158s would be ideal. The problem is, of course, exacerbated by
late running trains coming off the single line section, causing more delays to train travelling in the opposite direction. Loop lines need to be upgraded to full double track if possible to help minimise these delays.
Having said all this, 170s seemed to run perfectly satisfactorily on the line in Central Trains days.

 

[STINT47]

If anyone is being impacted by the Derwent Valley line trains no longer running to Nottingham it may be worth considering using the bus. I usually have to travel from Beeston to Belper once or twice a week and used the train but now my journey times have doubled with the new timetable. I tried the bus and found that by using the Red Arrow from the QMC and changing in Derby to the sixes there is little difference in time and the cost is a bit less.

Although it's a faff having to change at Derby and the journey times are a bit longer than with a direct train (but considerably quicker than by train at the moment) both services run frequently and it's an easy change at Derby bus station. I've been pleasantly surprised to find that this is a viable alternative and would recommend it to others if you want to get out.