RMT Industrial Action - Hull Trains

[westv]

Is there a thread about this already? Sorry if there is.

Calls for Hull Trains strike action as staff pension row heats up

Union set to launch a wave of strikes at Hull Trains

www.hulldailymail.co.uk

A rail union is set to launch a wave of strikes in a long-running row over changes to pensions for staff at Hull Trains.

The RMT union says the move follows the collapse of talks at the conciliation service ACAS and attempts by union officials to resolve the dispute amicably with the train operator's management.

 

[VP185]

I really don’t get the RMT.

Hull Trains struggled through the pandemic, I’m sure they even suspended all train running and as an open access operator receive no government support….. so what’s the best way to get passengers back, to rebuild and to ensure job security? Strike?? Really. Do they want to finish the business off?

 

[Starmill]

Hull Trains spent three periods, two of which were for several months, with no service yes. They also said that they made some staff redundant and have cut costs in other areas of the business. In general, they also shut down earlier and started up later than the similar operator Grand Central. Although it hasn't been put in black and white, it certainly seemed like there was a real chance that the business could fail. Indeed, although prospects have substantially brightened, there's obviously no guarantee they'll be a sustainable business now.

That's certainly the context in which the following quote from the company must be read:

"Changes to the pension arrangements are essential in order to preserve the future viability of our business."

In general, no pension scheme members have the right to make future contributions on the same terms as they do for current contributions. A reason why it is prudent, if you have particularly good terms today, to contribute as much as you can afford.

 

[falcon]

BUT where is ASLEF? that's what counts.

 

[Meerkat]

I really don’t get the RMT.

Hull Trains struggled through the pandemic, I’m sure they even suspended all train running and as an open access operator receive no government support….. so what’s the best way to get passengers back, to rebuild and to ensure job security? Strike?? Really. Do they want to finish the business off?

Cynically maybe RMT HQ do want to finish off Hull Trains, maybe betting the government would step in and merge the staff and trains with LNER.
They don’t want open access, just a nationalised operator.

 

[Watershed]

Cynically maybe RMT HQ do want to finish off Hull Trains, maybe betting the government would step in and merge the staff and trains with LNER.

I doubt that they would merge in any meaningful sense. Sure, the trains will see other use but there's no guarantee of further employment for HT staff, just as many lots their jobs when Wrexham & Shropshire collapsed.

They don’t want open access, just a nationalised operator.

The RMT might allude to that in their press releases but the reality is they are prepared to take industrial action regardless of the ownership or management of the TOC or industry.

I really feel for the staff, it's not by any means a pleasant situation to be in, but I fear that it may take a 'shocking' outcome for people to wake up and smell the coffee..

 

[Taunton]

Strike?? Really. Do they want to finish the business off?

Generally, yes. At the macro level a union wants to show they have power, not particularly to the selected recipient but to all the other train operators. THey couldn't really care less about the loss of a relatively few jobs, because it's all in the aid of a bigger picture, a demonstration to the larger operators.

USA unions are past masters at picking off small, low-employee short lines, to show strength to the mainstream ones.

 

[185]

I'm guessing that given MD Louise Cheeseperson bailed out the other day at the first sign of trouble, FG already expected this to become a dispute. She, as a director left another operator ahead of a similar dispute previously.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Cynically maybe RMT HQ do want to finish off Hull Trains, maybe betting the government would step in and merge the staff and trains with LNER.
They don’t want open access, just a nationalised operator.

It would have been far more sensible for Hull Trains and Grand Central, not East Coast Trains though, to have been folded into LNER as they are providing a service thats not available elsewhere but govt aren't likely to do that and even less so if unions threaten this pointless action. Reality is the Railway Pension Scheme has been creaking for over a decade and needs huge employer contributions to keep it afloat which is factored into franchises and NR but without subsidy the likes of Hull Trains are hugely exposed. RMT want First Group to use their resources from there long standing operations to cross subsidise but that leaches money out of GWR etc and will result in increased contributions not only from First but existing employees.

RMT seem hell bent on confrontation now so its not going to end well once GBR attempts to right size the industry for the traffic currently on offer.

 

[Kite159]

It would have been far more sensible for Hull Trains and Grand Central, not East Coast Trains though, to have been folded into LNER as they are providing a service thats not available elsewhere but govt aren't likely to do that and even less so if unions threaten this pointless action. Reality is the Railway Pension Scheme has been creaking for over a decade and needs huge employer contributions to keep it afloat which is factored into franchises and NR but without subsidy the likes of Hull Trains are hugely exposed. RMT want First Group to use their resources from there long standing operations to cross subsidise but that leaches money out of GWR etc and will result in increased contributions not only from First but existing employees.

RMT seem hell bent on confrontation now so its not going to end well once GBR attempts to right size the industry for the traffic currently on offer.

Of course LNER would love to take over both operators as it would allow them to jack up fares without the pesky competition

The RMT seems to live in a parallel universe where Covid never happened, First Group under the new CEO might decide to cut their losses with the Hull Trains business and close up shop, meaning the staff will be made jobless.

Pension liabilities is an issue for most places, people are living longer with more money needing to be paid out.

 

[Wokingham]

Time for the RMT to get real, hopefully one of the other unions can step in with a more realistic attitude.

 

[Meerkat]

Time for the RMT to get real, hopefully one of the other unions can step in with a more realistic attitude.

I get the RMT plan, but why are the staff voting for it?
post pingdemic could LNER cover Hull services without the Hull Trains staff?

 

[mike57]

As an occasional user of Hull trains they provide a service which is important, you can get Northern from Hull to Doncaster and then LNER, but its more covenient to get the direct train. Pre Covid the trains were well used, and they had some good 1st class offers. They were very hard hit by the lockdowns, zero income for months, so to repeat previous comments, why are the staff going along with it. I doubt that they could survive a strike of any length, and probably dont have the resource to fund the demands, so its going to end with the operation failing, and the staff losing their jobs. Do the staff think they will quickly pick up jobs with other operators. Surely they must be aware of the state of the business.

 

[Taunton]

its going to end with the operation failing, and the staff losing their jobs. Do the staff think they will quickly pick up jobs with other operators. Surely they must be aware of the state of the business.

I wonder what HR department at LNER, Northern or anywhere else is going to employ someone who had been in an employee group which voted to finish their prior employers' company off. I certainly wouldn't.

It's similar to those who take an employer to an industrial tribunal. Sure, you can win. But it's then a matter of public record, and can be readily found by HR departments of anyone else you apply to for a job; most such would not touch anyone who has taken a prior employer to a tribunal with a barge pole. So, like many others in the present pandemic like airline pilots, you end up driving a delivery van for Asda at £10.50 an hour. And of course, compared to present position, no meaningful pension whatsoever.

Meanwhile at the union, all of whose officials promoting this get to keep their jobs of course, they have made their separate strongarm point that "we can finish you off if we want to" to other operators.

 

[David Burrows]

It is high time people realised that they don't have to do what 'their' union says and can decide for themselves what is best for them. Unions usually just want to show their power, which is fortunately much less than it used to be, whenever possible. Unions take a lot of money from many people and do very little for them. They might work for some people, but certainly not for everyone.

 

[Harold Hill]

Totally sickening move by the union

 

[Clip]

It is high time people realised that they don't have to do what 'their' union says and can decide for themselves what is best for them. Unions usually just want to show their power, which is fortunately much less than it used to be, whenever possible. Unions take a lot of money from many people and do very little for them. They might work for some people, but certainly not for everyone.

Totally sickening move by the union

Its members voted for it.

Its members. The staff. No one has told them to go on strike they have had a ballot and the staff have voted for a strike.

I find it a bit bizzare they have done so but you can't just blame the 'union'. The 'union' is its members. And they voted for it

 

[riceuten]

You can be more or less guaranteed that the pension changes proposed won't be wrought upon the management, nor will they be taking a pay cut or their numbers being drastically cut.

Sadly, the "we must make the business viable" comes from the "you should be lucky to have a job" school of 1970s political analysis. If I was going to be completely cynical, I would say that if the drivers that will lose their jobs, they will quickly find other work.

I fully expect some posters to propose that this post to be removed as "too political", but apparently, criticising the RMT for protecting their members' rights won't be. Hmmm.

 

[Bald Rick]

And they voted for it

They did. But what information were they given, and by whom, to make their decision?

 

[notadriver]

I wonder what HR department at LNER, Northern or anywhere else is going to employ someone who had been in an employee group which voted to finish their prior employers' company off. I certainly wouldn't.

It's similar to those who take an employer to an industrial tribunal. Sure, you can win. But it's then a matter of public record, and can be readily found by HR departments of anyone else you apply to for a job; most such would not touch anyone who has taken a prior employer to a tribunal with a barge pole. So, like many others in the present pandemic like airline pilots, you end up driving a delivery van for Asda at £10.50 an hour. And of course, compared to present position, no meaningful pension whatsoever.

Meanwhile at the union, all of whose officials promoting this get to keep their jobs of course, they have made their separate strongarm point that "we can finish you off if we want to" to other operators.

Are there still airline pilots driving asda delivery vans at £10.50 an hour ? Why haven’t they been able to find other piloting jobs like most train crew would if their franchise failed ?

 

[mike57]

The cynic in me says that the only people who will upset if Hull trains fail are the passengers who use them and Hull Trains. LNER (arm length goverment operation), DfT, Unions would probably only shed crocodile tears. Covid has almost given us renationalisation by stealth, not that I am a fan of the way the railways were run, but one plus point of any new system is the ability of an open access operator to step in and provide a service which the 'nationalised' (in quotes because that may not be what its called but thats what it will look like) industry will not provide, that potentially gives us the good bits of a nationalised railway, i.e. a joined up service, timetables, ticketing etc. with the competition element that gaps in the market can be exploited. If open access operators fail then the bad bits of a 'nationalised' rail network are more likely to return as well.

 

[John Bishop]

Are there still airline pilots driving asda delivery vans at £10.50 an hour ? Why haven’t they been able to find other piloting jobs like most train crew would if their franchise failed ?

Yes there is, because there isn’t any jobs to go to!

 

[Clip]

They did. But what information were they given, and by whom, to make their decision?

Well obviously their reps would've said about the pension issue but as to what information they were given I couldn't say however they were not forced to do anything by their union

 

[Bald Rick]

You can be more or less guaranteed that the pension changes proposed won't be wrought upon the management, nor will they be taking a pay cut or their numbers being drastically cut.

This isn’t about pay cuts or redundancies is it though. And, from my reading of the info, this affects every employee in the Hull Trans section of RPS.

Are there still airline pilots driving asda delivery vans at £10.50 an hour ? Why haven’t they been able to find other piloting jobs like most train crew would if their franchise failed ?

Because the airline industry is a fraction of the size it was before covid. The ‘other piloting jobs’ don’t exist.

Whether they are driving vans for ASDA or not I don’t know, but a friend of mine did have some decorating done recently, and the guy doing it was an ex pilot. My friend wasn’t too happy with the paint job in the hallway, but apparently the landing was brilliant

Well obviously their reps would've said about the pension issue but as to what information they were given I couldn't say however they were not forced to do anything by their union

People are never forced to decided what to vote. But they can be strongly influenced by the information they are given and how it is presented. As this country knows only too well.

 

[Starmill]

My friend wasn’t too happy with the paint job in the hallway, but apparently the landing was brilliant

Oh my goodness me

 

[Bletchleyite]

I really don’t get the RMT.

Hull Trains struggled through the pandemic, I’m sure they even suspended all train running and as an open access operator receive no government support….. so what’s the best way to get passengers back, to rebuild and to ensure job security? Strike?? Really. Do they want to finish the business off?

Quite. It is not a subsidised TOC and FirstGroup itself is not going to bail it out, so this could well kill it and leave everyone jobless.

 

[Starmill]

You can be more or less guaranteed that the pension changes proposed won't be wrought upon the management

Can you elaborate here please? If a scheme is closed to any new contributions, surely that affects (or is "wrought upon") all existing members?

Why is closing the scheme to new contributions unreasonable?

 

[irish_rail]

I'm guessing that given MD Louise Cheeseperson bailed out the other day at the first sign of trouble, FG already expected this to become a dispute. She, as a director left another operator ahead of a similar dispute previously.

And yet will probably waltz into another TOC in a top role again.....

 

[Meerkat]

Can you elaborate here please? If a scheme is closed to any new contributions, surely that affects (or is "wrought upon") all existing members?

Why is closing the scheme to new contributions unreasonable?

Would the top management be in Hull Trains scheme or are they effectively group employees?
if they are in then they would have most to lose.

 

[ainsworth74]

And yet will probably waltz into another TOC in a top role again.....

Apparently she's moved to TfL as Director of Buses which personally I think is a demotion going from heading up a railway company to dealing with buses