RMT Industrial Action - Hull Trains

[Hadders]

Are the managers part of a Defined Benefit or Defined Contribution scheme?

 

[dk1]

I thought I read in MR magazine a while back that LNER intends to run far more services to Hull post HS2 along with XC diverting the Southampton/Reading to Newcastle to serve Hull instead at the same time. Mind you a lot can happen between now & then.

 

[westv]

I thought I read in MR magazine a while back that LNER intends to run far more services to Hull post HS2 along with XC diverting the Southampton/Reading to Newcastle to serve Hull instead at the same time. Mind you a lot can happen between now & then.

Most of us will be dead by then!

 

[JamesT]

Are the managers part of a Defined Benefit or Defined Contribution scheme?

The IWDC that's mentioned appears to be a Defined Contribution scheme, that replaces or is on top of the DB scheme run by RPS.
So if I'm understanding that letter correctly, normal employees paying into DC will have their contributions matched by the employer 1:1, but managers would get 1:1.5 or 1:2 from the employer. I think any any case, the maximum contribution from an employee that would be matched would be 10%.

 

[WestRiding]

Its members voted for it.

Its members. The staff. No one has told them to go on strike they have had a ballot and the staff have voted for a strike.

I find it a bit bizzare they have done so but you can't just blame the 'union'. The 'union' is its members. And they voted for it

Well, Pensions is one of the main things that people WILL strike for.

 

[Hadders]

The IWDC that's mentioned appears to be a Defined Contribution scheme, that replaces or is on top of the DB scheme run by RPS.
So if I'm understanding that letter correctly, normal employees paying into DC will have their contributions matched by the employer 1:1, but managers would get 1:1.5 or 1:2 from the employer. I think any any case, the maximum contribution from an employee that would be matched would be 10%.

So managers are in a defined contribution scheme so no guarantee of anything, you just build up a pot of money

Non-managers are in a defined benefit scheme where there is in effect a defined level of pension paid upon retirement.

Am I correct?

 

[Starmill]

I thought I read in MR magazine a while back that LNER intends to run far more services to Hull post HS2 along with XC diverting the Southampton/Reading to Newcastle to serve Hull instead at the same time. Mind you a lot can happen between now & then.

I suspect you probably did read that in MR and it is probably just speculation. In any case as you hint at, it wouldn't be until 2b Eastern Leg opened, so 2040s, and of course we may never get an Eastern Leg.

 

[centro-323]

So managers are in a defined contribution scheme so no guarantee of anything, you just build up a pot of money

Non-managers are in a defined benefit scheme where there is in effect a defined level of pension paid upon retirement.

Am I correct?

I may be reading it wrong, but my take on that ASLEF notice is...

- All grades will be in the industry-wide defined contribution (IWDC) scheme in the future. Staff who were members of the closing defined benefit (DB) scheme as at 1st Jan 2021 will have their employer contributions increased by up to 2.5% from the original proposed maximum of 10%. So if they contribute 10% of their gross salary, the company adds another 12.5%, so a 'matching rate' of x1.25.
- However, the managers will be getting either a x1.5 or x2 matching rate
- Also, that notice is from the end of March so the offer might have changed since then

 

[Bishopstone]

I’m quite surprised that a business established as recently as 2000 instigated a Defined Benefit pension scheme, and given that FirstGroup is a financial basket case - share price lower than it was 20 years ago - I’m surprised it’s taken them 17 years to draw a line under this ballooning liability.

I hope that expectations are being set for new recruits to East Coast Trains, such that there isn’t a big dispute in 2022 because they’ve realised they’re not on the same terms as the franchised railway.

 

[Bald Rick]

I hope that expectations are being set for new recruits to East Coast Trains, such that there isn’t a big dispute in 2022 because they’ve realised they’re not on the same terms as the franchised railway.

ECTL is non unionised.

 

[Class 170101]

It's not clear to me that there are any 'financially stable' rail industry employers at the moment, save insofar as Rishi Sunak and Boris Johnson permit them to be with the use of public funds.

The Treasury should take an interest in people's pensions to be honest. Poor pensions mean people rely on the state pension but also various top ups and tax exemptions (council tax for example).

 

[the sniper]

I’m quite surprised that a business established as recently as 2000 instigated a Defined Benefit pension scheme, and given that FirstGroup is a financial basket case - share price lower than it was 20 years ago - I’m surprised it’s taken them 17 years to draw a line under this ballooning liability.

I hope that expectations are being set for new recruits to East Coast Trains, such that there isn’t a big dispute in 2022 because they’ve realised they’re not on the same terms as the franchised railway.

If they've relied largely or wholly upon recruiting qualified Drivers, they'll have struggled to recruit if they hadn't. One of the reasons East Coast Trains has struggled to recruit Qualifieds and has recruited a relatively large number of trainees is because of the relatively unique T&Cs they offer.

 

[Starmill]

The Treasury should take an interest in people's pensions to be honest. Poor pensions mean people rely on the state pension but also various top ups and tax exemptions (council tax for example).

They are definitely taking an interest. Although it's mainly in the form of restricting the generous tax reliefs that higher earners can avail themselves of.

 

[Bald Rick]

Although it's mainly in the form of restricting the generous tax reliefs that higher earners can avail themselves of.

To be fair, the tax relief on pensions applies to all earners, as long as they are taxpayers in the first place. Higher earners are capped in the pension tax relief, and that cap has been reduced considerably over the years (and in real terms will continue to do so for the next 5 years).

 

[Starmill]

To be fair, the tax relief on pensions applies to all earners, as long as they are taxpayers in the first place. Higher earners are capped in the pension tax relief, and that cap has been reduced considerably over the years (and in real terms will continue to do so for the next 5 years).

I certainly don't disagree. It's just that most people on average wages won't be able to afford to contribute more the minimum for automatic enrollment at 5%, with 3% employer contribution.

 

[Watershed]

..However, it turns out that although management will be affected, there will be, in fact, a special "manager's corner".

They will receive a higher level of employer contribution for the new IWDC scheme, yes. But, as with all other Hull Trains employees, they will no longer benefit from the RPS DB scheme.

 

[Wolfie]

Pension changes will be wrought upon the management...



...However, it turns out that although management will be affected, there will be, in fact, a special "manager's corner".

RMT, usually representing the lower paid workers, with the consequent lower pension benefits, are understandably peeved about this. As are ASLEF:

Won't only be RMT striking then.

After reading that, that's taking the p???

Indeed. I'm all right Jack writ large.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Oh dear, I am supposed to be travelling with them soon.

 

[alf]

To be fair, the tax relief on pensions applies to all earners, as long as they are taxpayers in the first place. Higher earners are capped in the pension tax relief, and that cap has been reduced considerably over the years (and in real terms will continue to do so for the next 5 years).

This is wrong. Not all higher earners are capped.

Judges, for example, have a different, much higher, cap on their pension tax relief & in some cases no cap.
There may be other unusual jobs that have been given similar treats.

The Judge exception came about in about 2015 because most judges are initially barristers some of whom can earn whopping salaries. (although some far earn less than a train driver)

Moving to be a judge meant greater security & a non contributory pension, but for some judges a far lower yearly salary.
The judges argued that many barristers wouldn’t apply to be judges if the cap that applied to everyone else applied to them.

The Coalition government agreed. They were scared there would be a shortage of quality Judges if the cap was applied to them.

 

[Bald Rick]

This is wrong. Not all higher earners are capped.

Judges, for example, have a different, much higher, cap on their pension tax relief & in some cases no cap.
There may be other unusual jobs that have been given similar treats.

The Judge exception came about in about 2015 because most judges are initially barristers some of whom can earn whopping salaries. (although some far earn less than a train driver)

Moving to be a judge meant greater security & a non contributory pension, but for some judges a far lower yearly salary.
The judges argued that many barristers wouldn’t apply to be judges if the cap that applied to everyone else applied to them.

The Coalition government agreed. They were scared there would be a shortage of quality Judges if the cap was applied to them.

Well I didn’t know that, but it’s hardly relevant to this - how many judges are there in the country, and how many are in railway management?

 

[nanstallon]

Nobody loses in our wonderful railway industry, except the good old passengers and the taxpayer. Frankly, I couldn't care less about the RMT's concerns or the career prospects of TOC head honchos; I just want a reliable train service for which as taxpayer and passenger I pay through the nose. The RMT incessantly involves the public in its often politically inspired disputes with TOCs which also doesn't stand to lose anything. They know that even if there were no passengers they'd still get paid their salaries or get baled out by the taxpayer; we need a genuine open market where if you run out of customers you don't eat!

 

[Wolfie]

Nobody loses in our wonderful railway industry, except the good old passengers and the taxpayer. Frankly, I couldn't care less about the RMT's concerns or the career prospects of TOC head honchos; I just want a reliable train service for which as taxpayer and passenger I pay through the nose. The RMT incessantly involves the public in its often politically inspired disputes with TOCs which also doesn't stand to lose anything. They know that even if there were no passengers they'd still get paid their salaries or get baled out by the taxpayer; we need a genuine open market where if you run out of customers you don't eat!

Fine you could have that. Of course zero subsidies would mean WAY higher fares in much of the country. I dread to think what Northern would be charging if it had to cover it's costs in full.

 

[Journeyman]

Fine you could have that. Of course zero subsidies would mean WAY higher fares in much of the country. I dread to think what Northern would be charging if it had to cover it's costs in full.

Hull Trains DOES have to cover its costs in full. It's an open access operator.

 

[Wolfie]

Hull Trains DOES have to cover its costs in full. It's an open access operator.

I know. I was addressing the more general comment.

 

[nanstallon]

Fine you could have that. Of course zero subsidies would mean WAY higher fares in much of the country. I dread to think what Northern would be charging if it had to cover it's costs in full.

Nothing to stop local councils from subsidising TOCs to provide services they consider necessary and which cannot be effectively supplied by bus companies - indeed let bus and train companies compete for subsidies for provision of socially necessary services. Nationally, let the user pay the full cost of service provision; someone has to pay, so why not the user?

 

[flitwickbeds]

...we need a genuine open market...

How do you achieve that given the capacity restraints on the track?

 

[Wolfie]

Nothing to stop local councils from subsidising TOCs to provide services they consider necessary and which cannot be effectively supplied by bus companies - indeed let bus and train companies compete for subsidies for provision of socially necessary services. Nationally, let the user pay the full cost of service provision; someone has to pay, so why not the user?

Fine, just as long as you do that for all transport modes. Then logically all Govt expenditure....

 

[43066]

I couldn't care less about the RMT's concerns or the career prospects of TOC head honchos

But to be fair the RMT couldn’t care less about your concerns either. They’re a trade Union who are supposed to represent their members, so your concerns won’t necessarily be aligned with theirs. I agree it often seems like railway head honchos also care little for passengers, which is perhaps more concerning!

we need a genuine open market where if you run out of customers you don't eat!

That’s exactly what Hull Trains is. But this overlooks the wider point that only few niche areas of the railway can function as sustainably profitable enterprises in their own right. The railway as a whole doesn’t (and never has!) operate on the basis of standing on its own to feet. The whole point of it existing and being subsidised at all is to enable wider economic activity through mass transport.

 

[GordonT]

Apparently she's moved to TfL as Director of Buses which personally I think is a demotion going from heading up a railway company to dealing with buses

Not so much a demotion as being found a safe haven from a subsidiary company soon to be dead in the water?

 

[Carlisle]

Well I didn’t know that, but it’s hardly relevant to this

It’s relevant in the sense that under our current version of a market economy, resolution of these issues in favour of one or other party appears significantly linked to availability of particular skills.