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Rover Tickets

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pitdiver

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This is both an Underground and Bus question. Can anybody throw any light on the various types of Rover Tickets that were available on LT services during the 1960s EG Red Rovers, Green Rovers, Twin Rovers and Gold/Golden? Rovers. I am particularly interested in the availability of these various tickets.

Thank You
 
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PeterC

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This is both an Underground and Bus question. Can anybody throw any light on the various types of Rover Tickets that were available on LT services during the 1960s EG Red Rovers, Green Rovers, Twin Rovers and Gold/Golden? Rovers. I am particularly interested in the availability of these various tickets.

Thank You
Red Rover - Central Area (red) buses only. Weekends only

Green Rover - Country Area (green) buses only NOT Green Line Coaches. IIRC tickets couldn't be used to Tunbridge Wells and a suppliment was payable for the Dartford Tunnel. All day at Weekends and after 9 or 9:30 on weekdays.

Twin Rover - Red Rover plus tube with some restrictions, IIRC not the far end of the Bakerloo which extended to Watford Junction. Weekends only

The above is all from memory after 50 years!

Golden Rovers didn't exist when I was bus spotting. I didn't take much interest after discovering girls.
 

pitdiver

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Red Rover - Central Area (red) buses only. Weekends only

Green Rover - Country Area (green) buses only NOT Green Line Coaches. IIRC tickets couldn't be used to Tunbridge Wells and a suppliment was payable for the Dartford Tunnel. All day at Weekends and after 9 or 9:30 on weekdays.

Twin Rover - Red Rover plus tube with some restrictions, IIRC not the far end of the Bakerloo which extended to Watford Junction. Weekends only

The above is all from memory after 50 years!

Golden Rovers didn't exist when I was bus spotting. I didn't take much interest after discovering girls.
I was under the impression that Red Rovers could be used any weekday after 0930
 

Busaholic

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I was under the impression that Red Rovers could be used any weekday after 0930

When Red Rovers were introduced they were only available at weekends, but within a year or two they became available on a daily basis in the summer period, basically school holidays iirc. They were not easy to obtain at first if you didn't live near an Underground station or bus garage!
 

MotCO

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They were not easy to obtain at first if you didn't live near an Underground station or bus garage!

I seem to recall that Golden Rovers could be bought on board Green Line coaches, albeit that it was just like a normal paper ticket.
 

Busaholic

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I seem to recall that Golden Rovers could be bought on board Green Line coaches, albeit that it was just like a normal paper ticket.

You're probably right, I think I only ever bought one. Why Red Rovers could not be bought from a bus conductor, given that every red London bus had such when they were first introduced, I never understood. I suspect management/union relations had everything to do with the decision, and paranoia in bus management about 'fiddles' which may have been based on some evidence but was probably never as widespread or organised as they suspected. After the 1958 bus strike industrial relations were at an all-time-low and this played a major contribution in the decline of bus services, along with all the other factors.
 

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Red Rover - Central Area (red) buses only. Weekends only

Green Rover - Country Area (green) buses only NOT Green Line Coaches. IIRC tickets couldn't be used to Tunbridge Wells and a suppliment was payable for the Dartford Tunnel. All day at Weekends and after 9 or 9:30 on weekdays.

Twin Rover - Red Rover plus tube with some restrictions, IIRC not the far end of the Bakerloo which extended to Watford Junction. Weekends only

The above is all from memory after 50 years!

Golden Rovers didn't exist when I was bus spotting. I didn't take much interest after discovering girls.

I recall that in the early '60s, Red Rovers were valid on Central Area buses (routes 1-299) and Trolleybuses still running (route number range 501-699). The cost was 5s 0d.
Twin Rovers had the same bus validity as Red Rovers plus the then entire Underground network except west of Rickmansworth*. I think that they were valid to Watford Junction as I remember going up there on a Bakerloo tube (1938 stock), walked to Watford Met. station and travelled back to central London on a Met. compartment stock EMU. They cost 8s 6d.

* Met. trains were electric to Ricky, then steam locos took over to Chesham and Aylesbury. The Waterloo & City line was run by BR (SR) in those days.
 
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PeterC

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Just dug out my only remaining folder of transport ephemera from that period.

In 1967 Red Rovers were weekends only. As stated Twin Rovers stopped at Ricky. I only used one once (you can't get many bus numbers from a train) and I do remember a restriction on the DC lines. Perhaps it was just that we had to use Bakerloo Line trains which were infrequent on the outer reaches, not the BR trains between the same stations.

Green Rovers had more restrictions than I remembered. Tonbridge (not Tunbridge Wells), parts of Crawley and Forest Row were all excluded as were works services. Green Rovers were bought on the vehicle, it was advisable to have a leaflet with you as some conductors would insist that the 9:30 start applied at weekends.

Golden Rovers were later, possibly as they started to cut bus routes that paralleled Green Line coaches.

By 67 the tickets had gone up to 6shillings.

Something I don't remember but just spotted on one of the leaflets was a Weekender ticket which covered Central and Country buses and Undgerground but not Green Line. These could only be ordered in advance from 55 Broadway. At a pound they worked out the same as two Twin Rovers despite the additional validity. That would have left me not only without pocket money but also without bus fares to school for a fortnight.
 
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RT4038

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You're probably right, I think I only ever bought one. Why Red Rovers could not be bought from a bus conductor, given that every red London bus had such when they were first introduced, I never understood. I suspect management/union relations had everything to do with the decision, and paranoia in bus management about 'fiddles' which may have been based on some evidence but was probably never as widespread or organised as they suspected. After the 1958 bus strike industrial relations were at an all-time-low and this played a major contribution in the decline of bus services, along with all the other factors.

Red rovers could not be issued by conductors, because they had no means of issuing them! Central area 'Gibson' machines did not show the date of issue on tickets, so a ticket valid on more than the bus it was issued on would be an immediate fraud problem.

Country area 'Gibsons' did show the date of issue (instead of the Route number of Central machines), which was anyway needed for certain outer sections of route [inter alia Tonbridge, East Grinstead, Aylesbury] beyond the statutory LT area, where LT sometimes had to adopt other operators farescales and issue day return tickets etc. Even then, it was necessary to change the colour of the ticket rolls each year to deter fraud.
 
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RT4038

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Golden Rovers were later, possibly as they started to cut bus routes that paralleled Green Line coaches.

.

Golden Rovers were a London Country product, started after the split with London Transport. They gave both Green Line and ordinary bus service validity.
 

PeterC

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Golden Rovers were a London Country product, started after the split with London Transport. They gave both Green Line and ordinary bus service validity.
No wonder I didn't remember them, by that time I was away at uni.
 

Busaholic

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Red rovers could not be issued by conductors, because they had no means of issuing them! .

I realise that: but they could have been given the means of issuing them if management had so decided! They could have been given a stock of undated Red Rovers and the ubiquitous rubber stamp but (a) the TGWU would probably have required extra payments to the conductors and (b) as you and I both seem to agree, management would never countenance it as they never trusted conductors. Why the later equivalents of the rovers were never issued on opo buses with all the data available on the machines is another matter - I remember visiting in-laws in Leeds in the early 1980s and buying a day ticket for £1 on the first bus I boarded available on all bus services in the West Yorkshire Metro area and thinking 'why can't I do this in London?', but then I remembered all the arguments I used to have at 55 Broadway and Grosvenor Place when I challenged the status quo on fares etc.:)
 

MotCO

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Country area 'Gibsons' did show the date of issue (instead of the Route number of Central machines), which was anyway needed for certain outer sections of route [inter alia Tonbridge, East Grinstead, Aylesbury] beyond the statutory LT area, where LT sometimes had to adopt other operators farescales and issue day return tickets etc. Even then, it was necessary to change the colour of the ticket rolls each year to deter fraud.

My recollection of Golden Rovers purchased on board a Green Line (RP Reliance) was that they were not Gibson tickets, but square (Setright?) I can't remember how they showed that it was a Golden Rover - maybe by the fare paid?

I also don't recall what was shown on Central Gibson tickets. I recall fare paid (or alpha code for fare), route, ticket number, and I could have sworn that date was on there as well, but I could well be mistaken:)
 
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MotCO

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They could have been given a stock of undated Red Rovers and the ubiquitous rubber stamp )

But how would they pay in and reconcile the day's takings? The conductors would take their readings off the Gibson, and then need to demonstrate Rover ticket sales. It reminds me when the day's takings on Bell Punch ticket sales were calculated by some poor soul having to count all the different coloured cardboard cut-outs from the ticket rack and match to cash collected :)
 

Busaholic

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But how would they pay in and reconcile the day's takings? The conductors would take their readings off the Gibson, and then need to demonstrate Rover ticket sales. It reminds me when the day's takings on Bell Punch ticket sales were calculated by some poor soul having to count all the different coloured cardboard cut-outs from the ticket rack and match to cash collected :)

If there had been a will, there would have been a way.:)
 

RT4038

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If there had been a will, there would have been a way.:)

Of course there would have been a way, but probably only at a cost of the next 5 years' worth of rover sales......

I do not think that Central area conductors carrying date stamps (and ink pads) would have been at all practical; on full buses it was difficult enough to collect all the single fares without messing about with such things.
 
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RT4038

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I seem to recall that Golden Rovers could be bought on board Green Line coaches, albeit that it was just like a normal paper ticket.

Golden Rovers, and Green rovers, could be bought on board buses;; the ticketing equipment (Gibson, Setright or later, Almex) had date of issue shown, so it was no problem.

Central area Gibsons ( and Ultimate machines on OMO buses) did not show the date of issue.
 

RT4038

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My recollection of Golden Rovers purchased on board a Green Line (RP Reliance) was that they were not Gibson tickets, but square (Setright?) I can't remember how they showed that it was a Golden Rover - maybe by the fare paid?

I also don't recall what was shown on Central Gibson tickets. I recall fare paid (or alpha code for fare), route, ticket number, and I could have sworn that date was on there as well, but I could well be mistaken:)

Across the top was (left to right) Fare paid (later an Alpha code), ticket class, fare stage boarded. In the middle, as a fixed plate was the machine number. At the bottom (left to right) was route no. (or date on Country area machines) and sequential ticket no.

Central buses moved to Alpha codes in the mid-70s, during a period of hugh inflation, because the fares (and therefore the ticket machine plates) had to be changed frequently. London Country replaced their Gibsons at decimalisation in 1971, with Setright machines.
 
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PeterC

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My recollection of Golden Rovers purchased on board a Green Line (RP Reliance) was that they were not Gibson tickets, but square (Setright?) I can't remember how they showed that it was a Golden Rover - maybe by the fare paid?

I also don't recall what was shown on Central Gibson tickets. I recall fare paid (or alpha code for fare), route, ticket number, and I could have sworn that date was on there as well, but I could well be mistaken:)
It's a long time ago but as far as I recall PAYE services on Green Line used Setrights while conductors used Gibsons. I think all routes had gone over to PAYE by the time that Golden Rovers were introduced. I may be confusing the driver operated machines with those used on Eastern National but definitely not Gibsons.

There are images of Gibson tickets on the web. They had fare, which at different times has been the cash value and an alpha code (I only remember the codes), class (only adult or child on a red London bus), fare stage number, machine serial number, route number and ticket number.
 
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RT4038

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It's a long time ago but as far as I recall PAYE services on Green Line used Setrights while conductors used Gibsons. I think all routes had gone over to PAYE by the time that Golden Rovers were introduced. I may be confusing the driver operated machines with those used on Eastern National but definitely not Gibsons.

There are images of Gibson tickets on the web. They had fare, which at different times has been the cash value and an alpha code (I only remember the codes), class (only adult or child on a red London bus), fare stage number, machine serial number, route number and ticket number.

Green Line (as opposed to Country bus) conductors used setright machines (too many different fares on a Green Line service to use a Gibson practically!). The first OMO Green Line route (724) started with Setrights, but went over to Almex later.
By the time Golden Rovers were introduced, Gibsons had been replaced from Country buses, so would have been issued with Setrights or Almex. The fare would have defined the ticket in this case, and anyway, both Setrights and Almex had class indicators.

There were about 6 different classes that could be selected on a Gibson. Latterly the central area only used Adult or Child, but others had been used (such as 'EMS' for Early Morning Single). The Country bus Gibsons were more likely to use other class letters (I think 'X' was used for Rovers); for instance Returns were issued on certain outer sections of route, and transfers in some places. Country bus Gibsons had day and month instead of a route number.
Country Gibsons were replaced on Decimalisation (Feb '71) by Setrights; which were probably transferred from OMO buses and coaches, being bumped out by Almex.
GS buses, always OMO worked, used Gibsons on ticket mechanisation.
 
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Why

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Going back to 1972 for LT Underground and Bus services I had a rover ticket called 'Go As You Please' ticket, this was a 4 and 7 Day Rover ticket. My friend moved away from the area at the start of the summer holidays and living near Gants Hill my mother suggested as I liked trains I explored London ...... i was 12 !!!!!!! can you imagine that in this day and age?? My Mother in her mid 80s still winces every time the conversation comes up.

One day I spent half a day in the cab of a Victoria Line tube going up and down the line, pressing the 2 buttons to start the train......... driver these days would have been sacked there and then.

Happy Days !!
 

Busaholic

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Going back to 1972 for LT Underground and Bus services I had a rover ticket called 'Go As You Please' ticket, this was a 4 and 7 Day Rover ticket. My friend moved away from the area at the start of the summer holidays and living near Gants Hill my mother suggested as I liked trains I explored London ...... i was 12 !!!!!!! can you imagine that in this day and age?? My Mother in her mid 80s still winces every time the conversation comes up.

One day I spent half a day in the cab of a Victoria Line tube going up and down the line, pressing the 2 buttons to start the train......... driver these days would have been sacked there and then.

Happy Days !!

My parents wouldn't allow me a bike as my older brother had died and they were convinced I'd follow him if let loose on two wheels, but certainly before I'd left primary school I was allowed out on buses with a Red Rover and, although I never travelled to the other side of London then, I'd be gone for hours, just so long as I returned for tea.
 

56 1/2

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Green Rovers had more restrictions than I remembered. Tonbridge (not Tunbridge Wells), parts of Crawley and Forest Row were all excluded as were works services. Green Rovers were bought on the vehicle, it was advisable to have a leaflet with you as some conductors would insist that the 9:30 start applied at weekends.

The restrictions on a Green Rover reduced over the years, in the early 60s Aylsbury and everything in Greys were also not permitted, also the special hospital visitors services.

Golden Rovers were later, possibly as they started to cut bus routes that paralleled Green Line coaches. Golden Rovers were LCBS 's Coach and Green bus rover from 1970 when LT lost the Country area.

By 67 the tickets had gone up to 6shillings.

Something I don't remember but just spotted on one of the leaflets was a Weekender ticket which covered Central and Country buses and Undgerground but not Green Line. These could only be ordered in advance from 55 Broadway. At a pound they worked out the same as two Twin Rovers despite the additional validity. That would have left me not only without pocket money but also without bus fares to school for a fortnight.

By about 1967 Weekenders were 25/- (12/6) Valid for two days either Saturday and Sunday or Sunday and Bank Holiday Monday they covered everything including Green Lines, the only remaining exception was the routes to the south of Crawley They were printed on card season ticket size similar to twin and red rovers and sold in the same way at tube stations and London Transport enquiry offices. In the country area they were not sold on buses but "available from London Transport Garages" I never saw a country issued one so have no idea what form they took.

Weekenders were not a great seller many tube stations sold less than 100 over the three years or so they were around, beyond spotting you would have to have two substantial journeys over a week end involving the green area that they might make economic sense, staff were worried at the beginning that the Green Lines would be clogged with rovers going all round the system, I never saw another user in my travels, weekenders did let me use the coaches to reach the other side of London and bag some of the obscure routes there. All finished at the end of 1969 as LCBS took over. And yes I did have one the last week end 27/28 December 1969
 

Busaholic

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[

Green Rovers had more restrictions than I remembered. Tonbridge (not Tunbridge Wells), parts of Crawley and Forest Row were all excluded as were works services. Green Rovers were bought on the vehicle, it was advisable to have a leaflet with you as some conductors would insist that the 9:30 start applied at weekends.

The restrictions on a Green Rover reduced over the years, in the early 60s Aylsbury and everything in Greys were also not permitted, also the special hospital visitors services.

Golden Rovers were later, possibly as they started to cut bus routes that paralleled Green Line coaches. Golden Rovers were LCBS 's Coach and Green bus rover from 1970 when LT lost the Country area.

By 67 the tickets had gone up to 6shillings.

Something I don't remember but just spotted on one of the leaflets was a Weekender ticket which covered Central and Country buses and Undgerground but not Green Line. These could only be ordered in advance from 55 Broadway. At a pound they worked out the same as two Twin Rovers despite the additional validity. That would have left me not only without pocket money but also without bus fares to school for a fortnight.

By about 1967 Weekenders were 25/- (12/6) Valid for two days either Saturday and Sunday or Sunday and Bank Holiday Monday they covered everything including Green Lines, the only remaining exception was the routes to the south of Crawley They were printed on card season ticket size similar to twin and red rovers and sold in the same way at tube stations and London Transport enquiry offices. In the country area they were not sold on buses but "available from London Transport Garages" I never saw a country issued one so have no idea what form they took.

Weekenders were not a great seller many tube stations sold less than 100 over the three years or so they were around, beyond spotting you would have to have two substantial journeys over a week end involving the green area that they might make economic sense, staff were worried at the beginning that the Green Lines would be clogged with rovers going all round the system, I never saw another user in my travels, weekenders did let me use the coaches to reach the other side of London and bag some of the obscure routes there. All finished at the end of 1969 as LCBS took over. And yes I did have one the last week end 27/28 December 1969
That's all very interesting. and thanks for the detail.

Tunbridge Wells wasn't on the green bus network, of course, only being served by Green Line coaches so didn't need to be specifically excluded for Green Rover.

Your mention of Weekender tickets has jolted my memory of the only time I purchased one. It was November 1968, and LT's new flat fare Ealing scheme had atarted. I lived in Bromley, can't remember where I went on the Saturday but decided to go on the two-hourly 410 to Reigate on the Sunday, then worked my way back to Crawley to catch the 710 Green Line to Ealing, or so I thought. On inspecting the stops at Crawley Bus Station I couldn't see a 710 tile: eventually, I found an inspector (yes!) and he told me the 710 had been withdrawn from Crawley and the whole of south London that very weekend. I almost lost the will to live, but got to Ealing somehow before the day was done via first green bus (405, undoubtedly) then red buses/underground. So I never got a 'free' ride on a Green Line coach, ever!
 

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That's all very interesting. and thanks for the detail.

Tunbridge Wells wasn't on the green bus network, of course, only being served by Green Line coaches so didn't need to be specifically excluded for Green Rover.

Your mention of Weekender tickets has jolted my memory of the only time I purchased one. It was November 1968, and LT's new flat fare Ealing scheme had atarted. I lived in Bromley, can't remember where I went on the Saturday but decided to go on the two-hourly 410 to Reigate on the Sunday, then worked my way back to Crawley to catch the 710 Green Line to Ealing, or so I thought. On inspecting the stops at Crawley Bus Station I couldn't see a 710 tile: eventually, I found an inspector (yes!) and he told me the 710 had been withdrawn from Crawley and the whole of south London that very weekend. I almost lost the will to live, but got to Ealing somehow before the day was done via first green bus (405, undoubtedly) then red buses/underground. So I never got a 'free' ride on a Green Line coach, ever!

I would be interested to know where you got your ticket, Bromley tube station was a non starter. If it came from the garage was it the same card season ticket format?

You or the Inspector missed a trick, Greenline 727 was running, that would take you to Reigate and 711 or enjoy more of 727's brisk running to Kingston, Heathrow or Uxbridge. All had good connections to Brentford / Ealing / Greenford for bonus points on by 347 or Met to Northwood or Eastcote for some 282, That was new and part of the Ealing scheme, it used the same stands at Greenford as the E routes
 

Busaholic

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I would be interested to know where you got your ticket, Bromley tube station was a non starter. If it came from the garage was it the same card season ticket format?

You or the Inspector missed a trick, Greenline 727 was running, that would take you to Reigate and 711 or enjoy more of 727's brisk running to Kingston, Heathrow or Uxbridge. All had good connections to Brentford / Ealing / Greenford for bonus points on by 347 or Met to Northwood or Eastcote for some 282, That was new and part of the Ealing scheme, it used the same stands at Greenford as the E routes
I can't honestly remember where I bought the ticket, but it certainly wasn't at Bromley Garage (TB) as I've never set foot in the place. Buying Rover tickets if you lived miles from the Underground or, alternatively, a bus garage was a perennial problem, as there was no facility for buying them much in advance.

You're right about the 727 - probably wasn't one in the bus station, and the thought of hanging round in Crawley on a very late Autumn Sunday afternoon had no appeal, whereas I daresay there was a 405 lurking ready to take me back to civilisation (well, Croydon, anyway :lol:)
 
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