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Rover Tickets

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Farningham

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I can't honestly remember where I bought the ticket, but it certainly wasn't at Bromley Garage (TB) as I've never set foot in the place. Buying Rover tickets if you lived miles from the Underground or, alternatively, a bus garage was a perennial problem, as there was no facility for buying them much in advance.

You're right about the 727 - probably wasn't one in the bus station, and the thought of hanging round in Crawley on a very late Autumn Sunday afternoon had no appeal, whereas I daresay there was a 405 lurking ready to take me back to civilisation (well, Croydon, anyway :lol:)
Travel Agents's shops sold Rovers - at least, the one in Wallington did, which saved a trip to Sutton Garage.
 
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PeterC

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Travel Agents's shops sold Rovers - at least, the one in Wallington did, which saved a trip to Sutton Garage.
I am away from home without access to any documentation at the moment but from memory it was specifically "Victoria Coach Station" agents. I always bought mine at North Street Romford (NS) garage as it was on my route home from school on the Friday night.
 

AY1975

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Something I don't remember but just spotted on one of the leaflets was a Weekender ticket which covered Central and Country buses and Undgerground but not Green Line. These could only be ordered in advance from 55 Broadway. At a pound they worked out the same as two Twin Rovers despite the additional validity.

Was the Weekender the same thing as the Twin Rover under a different name? If not, what was the difference?

I've also seen some sources suggesting that the Twin Rover was only ever available at weekends, and some suggesting that it was also available on weekdays for a time.

Slightly off topic, but I also seem to recall that in the 1970s and early '80s there was a Central Tube Rover (presumably only valid in the central area, as the name suggests, and I would guess that it was mainly aimed at tourists). AFAIK there was nothing for the rest of the Tube network and no all-day ticket that was valid on all modes (buses, Tube and BR (now National Rail)) until the Capitalcard (a version of the Travelcard also valid on BR) was introduced in about 1986, then in about 1989 the Capitalcard and Travelcard products were merged under the latter name.

There is a thread on pre-Travelcard rover tickets on District Dave's London Underground Forum at www.districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/29179/day-tickets.
 
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56 1/2

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I may have been confused in an earlier post, sorry

Twin rovers were Red Bus & Tube one day rovers (North of Rickmansworth was excluded) I do not recall Peter's weekender, I thought that they launched as a two day all services rover, including Green Line, I certainly did use it on coaches many times, they were dear at 25/- (£1.25) for two days and you had to have two long journeys or be an enthusiast to make a profit with them. I think that management were worried that hoards of rovers would clog the coach network riding for "free" but this never came to pass, coach use especially at the week ends was plummeting. At that time staff free travel did not extend to Green Line and a special chit had to be obtained if a coach journey was essential for work.

Weekender was LT's first and only UK purchase rover that covered Green Line, Golden Rover was LCBS 's one day coach and bus rover post the 1970 split.
 
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Enthusiast

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I used to buy mine at a local independent travel agent. As mentioned, conductors did not have the facilities. The tickets, a little bigger than a credit card, were embossed with the date, printed on the cardboard ticket by means of a large rubber date stamp.

My memory also has in mind a "Bus About Ticket" which I believe was for Central London buses only (but I'm not sure where the boundary was).
 

OzziePoole

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I'm pretty sure I remember newsagents used to sell them.

I used to go to a shop in Waltham Cross to pick up either a Red or Twin Rover for my travels all over London.

If I was plane spotting I would get the bus to Turnpike Lane then the tube to Hounslow West, no Heathrow stations in those days!!
 

MotCO

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If I was plane spotting I would get the bus to Turnpike Lane then the tube to Hounslow West, no Heathrow stations in those days!!

But there was the A1 express bus from Hounslow West, operated by Merlins, then Swifts.
 

Enthusiast

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But there was the A1 express bus from Hounslow West, operated by Merlins, then Swifts.
Not until August 1969 there wasn't. Prior to that it was the 81B that would take onward passengers to "London Airport" from Hounslow West. The 81B was withdrawn in September 1970. I'm not sure that Rover tickets would have been valid on the A1. It was a flat fare (One Shilling, as the poster below shows), no child fares and no conductor. The poster also shows that the fare had to be paid in specific coins. This indicates the buses had a "turnstile" rather like the early "Red Arrow" routes in Central London. I often used the 500 from Oxford Circus to Victoria and remember them quite well. The fare was 6d and you could only pay using a "tanner".

1594389425909.png

From 1958 route 140 also served "London Airport Central" as it was then known, though that bus originated from Mill Hill and travelled through Yeading, Hayes and Harlington and did not serve the end of the Piccadilly Line. It continued to serve Heathrow until last December when it was truncated back to Hayes, with the remainder of the route being replaced by buses 278 and X140 (a limited stop service between Harrow and Heathrow). The night service to Heathrow remains as N140. I recall on one occasion travelling at speed on a 140 away from the airport. When through the tunnel the driver was "pulled" by a traffic cop and he was in the process of writing him a ticket. An 81B came along and I jumped on that. The bus driver was most distressed at being nicked but he really was tanking his RT through the tunnel and I don't think the officer had much option.

I spent many happy trips to "London Airport" on a Red or (more usually) Twin Rover using the bus from Hounslow West. We would spend some time on the "Roof Gardens" watching the aircraft movements before heading back to the tube at Hounslow. Our usual goal then was one of the other extremities - Ongar, Rickmansworth (as far as you could go on a Rover), Watford Junction (which you could definitely visit with a Rover) or perhaps Upminster (nowhere near as interesting). An 84 bus to St Albans was also often on our itinerary. Lots of opportunities to spot "green" buses! Happy days! 8-)
 

MotCO

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Not until August 1969 there wasn't. Prior to that it was the 81B that would take onward passengers to "London Airport" from Hounslow West. The 81B was withdrawn in September 1970. I'm not sure that Rover tickets would have been valid on the A1. It was a flat fare (One Shilling, as the poster below shows), no child fares and no conductor. The poster also shows that the fare had to be paid in specific coins. This indicates the buses had a "turnstile" rather like the early "Red Arrow" routes in Central London. I often used the 500 from Oxford Circus to Victoria and remember them quite well. The fare was 6d and you could only pay using a "tanner".

I remember using the A1 on a day out on a Red Rover, and I'm sure that the Rovers were accepted on the A1.
 

Busaholic

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I remember using the A1 on a day out on a Red Rover, and I'm sure that the Rovers were accepted on the A1.
Rovers were accepted on the A1, just like on the other flat fare routes from 500 onwards.

Would absolutely confirm that Red Rovers were sold in newsagents; mine were bought at one in Well Hall Road in Eltham, outside which was the Eltham Church tram stop/terminus when I was extremely young.
 

silverfoxcc

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I remember the first time we went 'spotting' at Heathrow 9/7/60 From Edmonton Green a trolley to the Angel Edmonton 34 to Arnos Grove 251 to burnt Oak 140 to Heathrow spent more time on ghe buses that spotting And there was a sightseeing bus that left from the Queens Building with a tour guide and went around the perimeter Road No cars etc allowed on it back then. Copped a lot of Freight stuff over by the old Hunting Clan bldg and the long haul that was still using the the north Terminal Connies DC-7C and the odd Boeing Stratocruiser
When the Twin rover came out absolute Bliss
As mentioned earlier Watford Junction and Ricky for the T stock and Met locos The wonderful District Q23 and P/Q/R stock and the Met F stock all rather bland now
But Heathrow !!! Trolley to Manor House Tube to Hounslow West then the 81B
IIRC there was also a tube ticket LT sold that incorporated the 81B
 

pitdiver

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I remember the first time we went 'spotting' at Heathrow 9/7/60 From Edmonton Green a trolley to the Angel Edmonton 34 to Arnos Grove 251 to burnt Oak 140 to Heathrow spent more time on ghe buses that spotting And there was a sightseeing bus that left from the Queens Building with a tour guide and went around the perimeter Road No cars etc allowed on it back then. Copped a lot of Freight stuff over by the old Hunting Clan bldg and the long haul that was still using the the north Terminal Connies DC-7C and the odd Boeing Stratocruiser
When the Twin rover came out absolute Bliss
As mentioned earlier Watford Junction and Ricky for the T stock and Met locos The wonderful District Q23 and P/Q/R stock and the Met F stock all rather bland now
But Heathrow !!! Trolley to Manor House Tube to Hounslow West then the 81B
IIRC there was also a tube ticket LT sold that incorporated the 81B
That all brings back memories. 251 to Burnt Oak, Then the 140 to Heathrow. Never went on the coach tour but would sit on top of the Queens Building, Happy days.
I lived at Arnos Grove.
 

RT4038

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Rovers were accepted on the A1, just like on the other flat fare routes from 500 onwards.

Would absolutely confirm that Red Rovers were sold in newsagents; mine were bought at one in Well Hall Road in Eltham, outside which was the Eltham Church tram stop/terminus when I was extremely young.

Rovers weren't accepted on the pilot Red Arrow route (500) originally, but I think they were permitted on all the 'turnstile' routes when the first wave of suburban routes were introduced in Sep 1968.
 

PeterC

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Rovers weren't accepted on the pilot Red Arrow route (500) originally, but I think they were permitted on all the 'turnstile' routes when the first wave of suburban routes were introduced in Sep 1968.
As far as I remember the rover tickets were still weekend only when the 500 was launched.
 

RT4038

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As far as I remember the rover tickets were still weekend only when the 500 was launched.

According to the book 'London buses in the 1960s' by Ken Glazier, Red Rovers were made available on Mon-Fri after 09h30, in 1963. in August, then for the three summer months in '64-7. From 29th June 1968 this concession became permanent throughout the year.

The book mentions no availability on Red Arrow services or the suburban flat fare roues (Ealing, Wood Green/Walthamstow) and I have yet to discover a source of when travel on these routes was permitted. However, I know this was the case, and will post when I find it.
 

Busaholic

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According to the book 'London buses in the 1960s' by Ken Glazier, Red Rovers were made available on Mon-Fri after 09h30, in 1963. in August, then for the three summer months in '64-7. From 29th June 1968 this concession became permanent throughout the year.

The book mentions no availability on Red Arrow services or the suburban flat fare roues (Ealing, Wood Green/Walthamstow) and I have yet to discover a source of when travel on these routes was permitted. However, I know this was the case, and will post when I find it.
I took great advantage of the summer Mon-Fri availability from that 1963 date.I don't know about initial 500 availability, and am quite prepared to believe they weren't available on it. Availability of Rover tickets was certainly in place for the start of the initial suburban flat fare routes (the W series) and the extension of Red Arrow services beyond the 500 in September 1968, because I definitely made use of such a ticket on the first day, travelling in Central London, Walthamstow and Wood Green. I only keep such memories in my head, but I'm certain of at least three of the routes on that first day, as I never travelled on them again. Indeed, as far as I'm concerned, that day's Rover was the best day's value I ever had.
 

RT4038

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I took great advantage of the summer Mon-Fri availability from that 1963 date.I don't know about initial 500 availability, and am quite prepared to believe they weren't available on it. Availability of Rover tickets was certainly in place for the start of the initial suburban flat fare routes (the W series) and the extension of Red Arrow services beyond the 500 in September 1968, because I definitely made use of such a ticket on the first day, travelling in Central London, Walthamstow and Wood Green. I only keep such memories in my head, but I'm certain of at least three of the routes on that first day, as I never travelled on them again. Indeed, as far as I'm concerned, that day's Rover was the best day's value I ever had.

Interesting, because the book specifically remarks that they weren't available on these flat fare routes on introduction.
My memory is that they weren't available initially, but this policy was changed fairly shortly afterwards. (How long, I don't know!). However, memory plays strange tricks on things so long ago.
My first Red Rover without a parent was on Saturday 15th February 1969; I visited (amongst other places) St. Albans, for the first day of 'Autofare' Country area buses there.
 

Busaholic

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Interesting, because the book specifically remarks that they weren't available on these flat fare routes on introduction.
My memory is that they weren't available initially, but this policy was changed fairly shortly afterwards. (How long, I don't know!). However, memory plays strange tricks on things so long ago.
My first Red Rover without a parent was on Saturday 15th February 1969; I visited (amongst other places) St. Albans, for the first day of 'Autofare' Country area buses there.
I have to agree memory can play tricks, so I suppose it's a possibility I paid the flat fare on the three routes I used that day: however, more likely is that I waved the Rover ticket and was let through. On the W1 in particular, which I travelled on at about 9 p.m. the service was in turmoil already, and I can't imagine there was any resistance from the driver. Certainly by the time of the E route introductions, I travelled on them all on the second day, a Sunday, on a Rover because I can even remember buying that Rover the day before. My Sunday trips heretofore had been constrained by my parents' religiosity but I'd obviously started to rebel!
 

RT4038

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I have to agree memory can play tricks, so I suppose it's a possibility I paid the flat fare on the three routes I used that day: however, more likely is that I waved the Rover ticket and was let through. On the W1 in particular, which I travelled on at about 9 p.m. the service was in turmoil already, and I can't imagine there was any resistance from the driver. Certainly by the time of the E route introductions, I travelled on them all on the second day, a Sunday, on a Rover because I can even remember buying that Rover the day before. My Sunday trips heretofore had been constrained by my parents' religiosity but I'd obviously started to rebel!

Books are not always accurate either!
 

choochootrain

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Why on earth did it take until the 80's for London Transport to introduce a proper system of unlimited daily and period tickets? These Rover tickets sounded like a right pain in the backside to use!
 

RT4038

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Why on earth did it take until the 80's for London Transport to introduce a proper system of unlimited daily and period tickets? These Rover tickets sounded like a right pain in the backside to use!

I'm not sure what you mean by 'a proper system', but monthly and annual bus passes (priced at £6 and £60) were introduced on 11th June 1972. The day tickets (Red Rover) had already been available throughout the year from summer 1968, although not available for use before 09h30 on Monday to Friday.

Unlimited travel tickets were not generally available on urban bus networks anywhere in the country at that time - some 'rural' bus companies had them as a daily ticket (mainly in tourist areas) and indeed London Transport had issued them on its Country bus network since the 1950s. However these were seen strictly as a means of encouraging leisure travel, not to enable commuters to get bargain rides. Bus companies were struggling to carry all the traffic on offer in the morning peak period at that time.

The main impetus for the introduction of unlimited travel period tickets (by both London and provincial operators) was to speed up boarding of One-Man operated buses, to combat rising public complaint, and to overcome staff resistance to increasing this mode of operation. Convenience for the public was by and large a by-product.

Urban operators rarely issued unlimited travel daily tickets at all, and where they did it was not done 'on bus' mainly because of the time such tickets took to issue, and the amount of cash that conductors would have to carry. Unlimited travel period tickets were rarely issued 'on bus' by any operator (rural or urban) until the advent of electronic ticket machines in the 1990s. 'Network' unlimited period travel tickets were pretty much unheard of before 1970s - 'rural' bus companies (including London Transport on Green Line coaches) often issued 'point to point' season tickets from Company's offices.

It is sometimes hard to envisage the volumes of short distance passengers carried on urban (and particularly London) buses prior to the 80s, on routes with graduated farescales. London Transport had difficulty getting the Trade Union to accept 64 seat buses in the early 60s, and even more the 72 seaters, on the basis of the workload of the conductor. They certainly did not want to burden OMO drivers. Issuing Red Rovers 'on bus' was simply not a possibility.
 

choochootrain

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I'm not sure what you mean by 'a proper system', but monthly and annual bus passes (priced at £6 and £60) were introduced on 11th June 1972. The day tickets (Red Rover) had already been available throughout the year from summer 1968, although not available for use before 09h30 on Monday to Friday.

Unlimited travel tickets were not generally available on urban bus networks anywhere in the country at that time - some 'rural' bus companies had them as a daily ticket (mainly in tourist areas) and indeed London Transport had issued them on its Country bus network since the 1950s. However these were seen strictly as a means of encouraging leisure travel, not to enable commuters to get bargain rides. Bus companies were struggling to carry all the traffic on offer in the morning peak period at that time.

The main impetus for the introduction of unlimited travel period tickets (by both London and provincial operators) was to speed up boarding of One-Man operated buses, to combat rising public complaint, and to overcome staff resistance to increasing this mode of operation. Convenience for the public was by and large a by-product.

Urban operators rarely issued unlimited travel daily tickets at all, and where they did it was not done 'on bus' mainly because of the time such tickets took to issue, and the amount of cash that conductors would have to carry. Unlimited travel period tickets were rarely issued 'on bus' by any operator (rural or urban) until the advent of electronic ticket machines in the 1990s. 'Network' unlimited period travel tickets were pretty much unheard of before 1970s - 'rural' bus companies (including London Transport on Green Line coaches) often issued 'point to point' season tickets from Company's offices.

It is sometimes hard to envisage the volumes of short distance passengers carried on urban (and particularly London) buses prior to the 80s, on routes with graduated farescales. London Transport had difficulty getting the Trade Union to accept 64 seat buses in the early 60s, and even more the 72 seaters, on the basis of the workload of the conductor. They certainly did not want to burden OMO drivers. Issuing Red Rovers 'on bus' was simply not a possibility.
I just find it strange that it took until the 80's to develop the Travelcard. It's not as if people just started making multi-modal journeys then, but then again making travel as hard as possible is a speciality of the UK...
 

RT4038

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I just find it strange that it took until the 80's to develop the Travelcard. It's not as if people just started making multi-modal journeys then, but then again making travel as hard as possible is a speciality of the UK...

The Travelcard was introduced in 1983; up until then there had been no 'unlimited area' travel tickets on the underground (except for some tickets aimed at the tourist market).

The seismic change that paved the way for Travelcards was the establishment of the Zonal fares system around 1981. This was introduced by a Greater London Council elected on a 'Cheap public transport fares' manifesto and later involved fares cuts/Court challenges/fares increases and eventual abolition of the GLC (This is a precis - you need to read a detailed book for all the twists and turns!). The main point is that simplification of the fares structure required major subsidy increases [how much was the cause of much dispute] because inevitably the establishment of a zonal system reduces some fares and increases others, so is difficult to introduce without subsidy to reduce the effect of the increases.

Apart from the sheer difficulty of introducing a Travelcard product on a graduated fares system (aside from one covering the entire system, which would have been too expensive for most users), it would not be without some element of revenue risk, which previous managements felt unable to take.

When Travelcards were first introduced they did not cover British Rail services - this came later after much political pressure. The fact that London Transport (unlike the PTEs set up in conurbations in the provinces) did not have the same financial responsibility for BR services in their area, will have been an administrative blockage.
 

PeterC

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According to the book 'London buses in the 1960s' by Ken Glazier, Red Rovers were made available on Mon-Fri after 09h30, in 1963. in August, then for the three summer months in '64-7. From 29th June 1968 this concession became permanent throughout the year.

The book mentions no availability on Red Arrow services or the suburban flat fare roues (Ealing, Wood Green/Walthamstow) and I have yet to discover a source of when travel on these routes was permitted. However, I know this was the case, and will post when I find it.
I have 1966 and 1967 Central Area bus maps which both have May publication dates and both state quite clearly that Red and Twin Rovers were only valid on Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays. For 1966 I also have a "Rover Round" leaflet, also published in May which advertises the weekday availability from 1 July until 30 September. Nothing like consistent sales information. I have no recollection of using Red Rovers on weekdays, probably due to always keeping up to date with the bus maps and believing the sales spiel on the back. By 68, between girls and GCEs, my bus spotting days were behind me.

All the publicity is clear about sales outlets: Garages, Stations and Victoria Coach Station agents. I remember seeing shops other than travel agents with VCS agency stickers in the window but there were none near me.
 

Busaholic

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I have 1966 and 1967 Central Area bus maps which both have May publication dates and both state quite clearly that Red and Twin Rovers were only valid on Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays. For 1966 I also have a "Rover Round" leaflet, also published in May which advertises the weekday availability from 1 July until 30 September. Nothing like consistent sales information. I have no recollection of using Red Rovers on weekdays, probably due to always keeping up to date with the bus maps and believing the sales spiel on the back. By 68, between girls and GCEs, my bus spotting days were behind me.

All the publicity is clear about sales outlets: Garages, Stations and Victoria Coach Station agents. I remember seeing shops other than travel agents with VCS agency stickers in the window but there were none near me.
I've a feeling that the first time I saw that Red Rovers were available in the summer months was on a notice posted on the windows of a bus. I can imagine that in areas well away from Underground stations, like most of South London, bus garages weren't greatly enamoured about having loads of bus enthusiasts descending on them every weekday, and this is why independent agencies were asked to sell them: in my case, living in Eltham, I was almost equidistant from Catford, New Cross, Sidcup or Bexleyheath garages, but each of them was several miles away, and you couldn't buy them in advance in any case. I never had to go to a garage to buy one, let alone an Underground station, and I'm adamant that I bought mine from the newsagent adjacent to Eltham police station.
 
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I recall that in the early '60s, Red Rovers were valid on Central Area buses (routes 1-299) and Trolleybuses still running (route number range 501-699). The cost was 5s 0d.
Twin Rovers had the same bus validity as Red Rovers plus the then entire Underground network except west of Rickmansworth*. I think that they were valid to Watford Junction as I remember going up there on a Bakerloo tube (1938 stock), walked to Watford Met. station and travelled back to central London on a Met. compartment stock EMU. They cost 8s 6d.

* Met. trains were electric to Ricky, then steam locos took over to Chesham and Aylesbury. The Waterloo & City line was run by BR (SR) in those days.

I thought it was Moor Park.

I've a feeling that the first time I saw that Red Rovers were available in the summer months was on a notice posted on the windows of a bus. I can imagine that in areas well away from Underground stations, like most of South London, bus garages weren't greatly enamoured about having loads of bus enthusiasts descending on them every weekday, and this is why independent agencies were asked to sell them: in my case, living in Eltham, I was almost equidistant from Catford, New Cross, Sidcup or Bexleyheath garages, but each of them was several miles away, and you couldn't buy them in advance in any case. I never had to go to a garage to buy one, let alone an Underground station, and I'm adamant that I bought mine from the newsagent adjacent to Eltham police station.

You could buy them in advance. I frequently did at Perivale Station. I usually bought them late in the day, and it was easy for the booking clerk to set the correct date on his ink stamp.
 
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PeterC

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I thought it was Moor Park.



You could buy them in advance. I frequently did at Perivale Station. I usually bought them late in the day, and it was easy for the booking clerk to set the correct date on his ink stamp.
Loco change was definitely at Ricky, I don't think that Moor Park has ever had sidings that could handle the change, Ricky still has them at both ends of the station.

The publicity for rover tickets says that they could be bought up to one week in advance but as they were hand stamped in the 60s there would be nothing to stop them being dated further ahead if the clerk felt like it.
 
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