RTVs rejected at station

[Mathieu]

I was at Dalmuir station just there trying to buy tickets to back home to Oban, I was using an RTV to pay for my ticket, the RTV didn't scan and the person behind the desk made a phone call to another station. They were told by someone on the phone that because it was an LNER voucher I had to travel to Glasgow Central to get them changed to ScotRail vouchers, I mentioned they could be manually entered as some LNER vouchers don't scan but the person behind the desk stated that could not be done.

Has anyone experienced anything like this before?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

All RTVs I have ever come across have specifically stated they can be used at "any station ... as full or part payment for travel on services of the principal Train Companies". So unless these are unusual RTVs redeemable only at LNER stations (in which case you'd have to travel to Berwick as your nearest station), this is a case of the ticket office staff making things up, from your perspective as an RTV holder.

I don't doubt that they might get in trouble if they did (or simply are physically unable to) sell you a ticket if the RTV won't scan or go through the system. But ultimately that is not your concern. You have the right to buy your ticket using your RTV at any station.

If they are unable or unwilling to sell you your ticket before boarding, you can legitimately board the train without a ticket and use your RTVs for payment there. There is no requirement for you to use (or have) any other payment method in order to travel, or to buy a separate ticket to the first station that is willing to accept your RTVs.

It certainly wouldn't be the first time I've come across difficulties using RTVs; fortunately, most have been resolved satisfactorily in the end. You might need to raise a complaint with ScotRail though.

 

[robbeech]

Another effort and training based issue within the Railway sadly. All RTVs should be accepted at all stations, there's no reason that i can see why they couldn't, but a few reasons why they wouldn't. Those reasons being, staff not trained in how to accept them, or staff just simply not being bothered so making up an excuse.

One member of staff at my local ticket office in Worksop will happily accept them and do so without issue, they'll scan them mostly, with the odd one (not TOC specific) having to be entered manually. Another member of staff there is absolutely adamant that you can't scan ANY of them so has to type them all in manually, and does this with a smile on their face providing it's not too busy. A third member of staff (who in fairness i haven't seen for over 12 months so may no longer work there) insists that they simply do NOT accept RTVs there, they never have, and never will and i'd have to go to Retford or Sheffield for that sort of thing. So if there are 3 different opinions and 3 different attitudes at 1 small station there's little wonder there's differences between stations and operators.

 

[WesternLancer]

I was at Dalmuir station just there trying to buy tickets to back home to Oban, I was using an RTV to pay for my ticket, the RTV didn't scan and the person behind the desk made a phone call to another station. They were told by someone on the phone that because it was an LNER voucher I had to travel to Glasgow Central to get them changed to ScotRail vouchers, I mentioned they could be manually entered as some LNER vouchers don't scan but the person behind the desk stated that could not be done.

Has anyone experienced anything like this before?

was a thread on here not so long ago with problems about them. I recall there was a post in response detailing how to tell the staff how to get the kit to accept them IIRC.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One member of staff at my local ticket office in Worksop will happily accept them and do so without issue, they'll scan them mostly, with the odd one (not TOC specific) having to be entered manually. Another member of staff there is absolutely adamant that you can't scan ANY of them so has to type them all in manually, and does this with a smile on their face providing it's not too busy. A third member of staff (who in fairness i haven't seen for over 12 months so may no longer work there) insists that they simply do NOT accept RTVs there, they never have, and never will and i'd have to go to Retford or Sheffield for that sort of thing. So if there are 3 different opinions and 3 different attitudes at 1 small station there's little wonder there's differences between stations and operators.

This does annoy me, as this kind of thing is just making an excellent case for the abolition of ticket offices (and RTVs). It's just the wrong attitude - if you don't know something, the professional thing to do is to refer to The Manual etc and find out how to do it (or confirm for certain, and show the passenger where it says, that you can't, and also suggest sensible alternatives) rather than just issuing a Gallic shrug to yet another dissatisfied passenger.

 

[robbeech]

This does annoy me, as this kind of thing is just making an excellent case for the abolition of ticket offices (and RTVs). It's just the wrong attitude - if you don't know something, the professional thing to do is to refer to The Manual etc and find out how to do it (or confirm for certain, and show the passenger where it says, that you can't, and also suggest sensible alternatives) rather than just issuing a Gallic shrug to yet another dissatisfied passenger.

The railway in many cases defaults to revenue nowadays, rather than being helpful. Thankfully not all staff are like this but it is increasing in numbers at an alarming rate, no doubt encouraged by senior staff. If someone doesn't know, make something up that yields the highest revenue. That could be rejecting valid ticket that you don't know is valid but can't be bothered to check, or in this case it could be at the very least sewing the seed of making the passenger buy a ticket to Glasgow. It's easier for them, and it yields higher revenue.

 

[Haywain]

LNER stations (in which case you'd have to travel to Berwick as your nearest station

LNER operate the Travel Centre at Edinburgh Waverley.

Aside from that, some LNER vouchers won’t scan or be accepted when keyed in, because the check digit is wrong. All other TOCs were sent instructions on accepting such vouchers but that was several months ago now. If an office is so inclined they can accept the voucher by keying in the number several times, altering the last digit each time, until it is accepted. Or they can just take the voucher and accept it as cash.

 

[robbeech]

LNER operate the Travel Centre at Edinburgh Waverley.

Aside from that, some LNER vouchers won’t scan or be accepted when keyed in, because the check digit is wrong. All other TOCs were sent instructions on accepting such vouchers but that was several months ago now. If an office is so inclined they can accept the voucher by keying in the number several times, altering the last digit each time, until it is accepted. Or they can just take the voucher and accept it as cash.

And what is the alternative? See, this is all well and good and it's great to see that there is a supposed work around for this, but what happens when ticket office staff haven't got the memo, or have deliberately ignored it, or can't be bothered at all, one of which must be the case here? When the passenger gets a revenue check and ends up with a RORA prosecution because of this what happens then? Does the passenger just chalk it up to experience of trying to use the railway, and accept that the RTV they got (likely because of a failure of "The Railway") has cost them hundreds of pounds and they will have to give up teaching? And we can argue that no prosecution can come of this all we want, but if the staff member is happy to not do their job they'll also be happy to lie to keep themselves out of trouble when it's found out that the passenger claimed they were told NO by the ticket office staff.
Extreme? Yes of course, but it highlights the point perhaps.

 

[Mag_seven]

Here is what the " definitive source of customer information for all passenger rail services on the National Rail network in England, Wales and Scotland" has to say on the matter:

How can I use them?

They can be exchanged for ticket(s) to travel on National Rail services.

They can be exchanged at station booking offices or on board services that permit ticket sales.

Change cannot be given if the cost of the ticket(s) purchased is less than the value of voucher(s) tendered.

Payment Methods for Train Tickets | National Rail

There are lots of handy payment options available for you to buy your train ticket, whether it’s at a ticket office, from a ticket machine, online or on the phone.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

So they must in my book be exchangeable at all station booking offices without exception.


As an aside I also noted this howler on the same webpage (my bold)

Variable value: These Rail Travel Vouchers may be exchanged for chas at teh ticket office of the company that issued it. Details will be printed on the Rail Travel Voucher if this is permitted.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given that LNER know (a) which ones they've issued, and (b) who they've issued them to, why don't they put something in place for these "dodgy" ones to be exchanged?

 

[robbeech]

Given that LNER know (a) which ones they've issued, and (b) who they've issued them to, why don't they put something in place for these "dodgy" ones to be exchanged?

I suspect this is because they've got away without having to so far and have made it someone else's problem. Either that or some GDPR issues stop them sending out further correspondence, or at least enable them to say this.
I also suspect its not a massive problem, RTV's are generally only send out to people that request them nowadays from most operators, and those that do usually have a grasp on how they should work so the issue likely doesn't show up too often and resolves itself (with passenger input) when it does.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect this is because they've got away without having to so far and have made it someone else's problem. Either that or some GDPR issues stop them sending out further correspondence, or at least enable them to say this.

They might use GDPR as an excuse, but in fact nothing in GDPR prevents a company contacting a customer to tell them of a recall of a faulty product they have been issued - that would be rather silly!

 

[gsnedders]

There used to be a number of ScotRail ticket offices that sold tickets for Scottish travel only; looking at the latest published version of Schedule 17 of the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement it appears this is no longer the case (the only regional specific point I found quickly was the West Coast ticket office in Glasgow Central not selling tickets for Scottish travel). That said, as a junction station, I'd have been surprised if it were limited in such a way previously.

 

[RT4038]

This does annoy me, as this kind of thing is just making an excellent case for the abolition of ticket offices (and RTVs). It's just the wrong attitude - if you don't know something, the professional thing to do is to refer to The Manual etc and find out how to do it (or confirm for certain, and show the passenger where it says, that you can't, and also suggest sensible alternatives) rather than just issuing a Gallic shrug to yet another dissatisfied passenger.

The problem is that the ticketing system is just too complicated, with too many little used niche products, which is just an information overload for the majority of staff. You've got to be a ticketing enthusiast to be on top of it. Much as the ticketing enthusiasts would like, the railway is not going to create another grade which takes a year of training to become fully competent and therefore, because of scarcity, commands a £60k pa salary.

Any attempts at simplifying the system creates uproar from the ticket enthusiasts, so the railway just leaves the whole complicated mess and situations like robbeech outlines - a typical British dog's breakfast. Fortunately it only affects a tiny number of transactions.
Referring to 'The Manual' etc just takes too long , and shows to the customer that you don't know your job. Even then the information requires interpretation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Any attempts at simplifying the system creates uproar from the ticket enthusiasts, so the railway just leaves the whole complicated mess and situations like robbeech outlines - a typical British dog's breakfast. Fortunately it only affects a tiny number of transactions.
Referring to 'The Manual' etc just takes too long , and shows to the customer that you don't know your job

That's precisely the cultural problem that I'm referring to. Saying to a customer "I've not come across that in a while, bear with me while I look it up" doesn't show you "don't know your job", what it shows is that you are a professional who will accept when out of your depth and refer to the material available to you.

As an IT person I don't know everything about the products I work with but I am skilled in the use of their documentation website and Google (and yes, I do this in front of customers, because it's what they expect me to do as a professional if I don't know something). That's how ticket office staff should be, too. Crikey, the last time I went to the GP for anything vaguely obscure they typed the symptoms into Google then (as contrasted from an individual engaging in Internet hypochondria) used professional judgement to correctly interpret the results.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I really can't see the point of RTV anymore.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I really can't see the point of RTV anymore.

Nor I. Delay Repay can be paid as actual money, and any other needs for them could be dealt with by TOCs issuing codes to redeem on their online booking sites.

Their only purpose, which is negative to TOCs, is basically acting as an insurance against the issue of a Penalty Fare when boarding at a station with a TVM but no booking office.

 

[Hadders]

The problem is that the ticketing system is just too complicated, with too many little used niche products, which is just an information overload for the majority of staff. You've got to be a ticketing enthusiast to be on top of it. Much as the ticketing enthusiasts would like, the railway is not going to create another grade which takes a year of training to become fully competent and therefore, because of scarcity, commands a £60k pa salary.

Any attempts at simplifying the system creates uproar from the ticket enthusiasts, so the railway just leaves the whole complicated mess and situations like robbeech outlines - a typical British dog's breakfast. Fortunately it only affects a tiny number of transactions.
Referring to 'The Manual' etc just takes too long , and shows to the customer that you don't know your job. Even then the information requires interpretation.

This is nothing to do with the complicated fares structure. I agree with @Bletchleyite that the member of staff should have looked it up. To be fair LNER created the problem and advised the wider industry of a workaround but in the real world sometimes the message doesn't always filter down. If anything the issue needs to be raised with Scotrail as they need to make sure the message is cascaded. Maybe they will send one of their own RTV's as a goodwill gesture for the inconvenience

 

[WesternLancer]

I really can't see the point of RTV anymore.

Exactly - If TOCs detect their staff can't easily handle them and it would cost too much to do the training, then just use a wider accepted 'voucher' aka money.

 

[najaB]

When the passenger gets a revenue check and ends up with a RORA prosecution because of this what happens then?

They wouldn't as it would be trivial to show that there was no intent.

I really can't see the point of RTV anymore.

For Delay Repay, I agree. But for other purposes (e.g. goodwill gestures) there's still benefit in being able to offer a travel voucher rather than a cheque. It's the equivalent of a mobile provider giving you a free month if you've had bad service.

 

[Haywain]

They wouldn't as it would be trivial to show that there was no intent.

The question isn’t even likely to arise in Scotland.

 

[najaB]

The question isn’t even likely to arise in Scotland.

True, but I was considering the general case.

 

[gsnedders]

I really can't see the point of RTV anymore.

There's one clear motive: if they're not redeemed, the company never pays out. (I imagine a discount code is also awkward insofar as the number of booking sites, and customers may expect them to work on every site.)

 

[farleigh]

The problem is that the ticketing system is just too complicated, with too many little used niche products, which is just an information overload for the majority of staff. You've got to be a ticketing enthusiast to be on top of it. Much as the ticketing enthusiasts would like, the railway is not going to create another grade which takes a year of training to become fully competent and therefore, because of scarcity, commands a £60k pa salary.

Any attempts at simplifying the system creates uproar from the ticket enthusiasts, so the railway just leaves the whole complicated mess and situations like robbeech outlines - a typical British dog's breakfast. Fortunately it only affects a tiny number of transactions.
Referring to 'The Manual' etc just takes too long , and shows to the customer that you don't know your job. Even then the information requires interpretation.

I am surprised that RTV are beyond railway staff's knowledge. I would be equally surprised if a member of staff would need a year's training and a £60k salary in order to understand how tickets work.

 

[najaB]

I would be equally surprised if a member of staff would need a year's training and a £60k salary in order to understand how tickets work.

As would I. A year doesn't seem nearly long enough.

 

[farleigh]

As would I. A year doesn't seem nearly long enough.

Seriously though - if your job involves ticketing then you need to understand how they work no?

 

[robbeech]

Seriously though - if your job involves ticketing then you need to understand how they work no?

Have you used the railway?

 

[RT4038]

I am surprised that RTV are beyond railway staff's knowledge. I would be equally surprised if a member of staff would need a year's training and a £60k salary in order to understand how tickets work.

In post #15 the complexity of their work is being compared to that of a GP ...........

Just look through the posts on this forum and you will see how complicated the ticketing system is, the number of niche services and products. The routeing guide, overdistance excesses, rover ticket validities etc etc.etc. Bonkers. And folk expect all the sort of people who man ticket offices up and down the land to have all this knowledge!

 

[Wallsendmag]

Seriously though - if your job involves ticketing then you need to understand how they work no?

Coming up to 32 years and still learning.

 

[Kilopylae]

Seriously though - if your job involves ticketing then you need to understand how they work no?

Most ticketing staff will rarely encounter passengers who are familiar with the (frankly excessive) complexities of the system.