• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Scania/MCW Metropolitans

Status
Not open for further replies.

Typhoon

Established Member
Joined
2 Nov 2017
Messages
3,488
Location
Kent
I know it was touched on above, but given the local connections, it's odd that WMPTE didn't buy more Metropolitans when they were quite prepared to buy Ailsas and even had some Titans.
This is trying to delve back in my memory but I seem to remember that they bought Ailsas because they were struggling to get much else (two batches I seem to remember, with N and P plates), what was more surprising is that they bought Bristol VRs with Northern Counties bodies for use in Walsall and Wolverhampton. I seem to remember there was quite a lot of stock that was taken out of use at that time - former Birmingham two-door Fleetlines, ex Midland Red Fleetlines, quite possibly ex West Brom, Walsall and Coventry Fleetlines (sorry Mods). There was fuss locally at the time that more was not sourced locally but it was said (may be true, may not be) that they were fulfilling a big order for London.
There were 5 Titans, performance to be compared with 5 Metrobuses. There was only going to be one winner.
Does anoyone know how long the WMPTE Metropolitan lasted in service, and what became of it ? It would be nice to think it was preserved somewhere.
Dr Google tells me that it was taken out of service in 1983 and sold to Trathens for sight-seeing in London after 6 years service. It was bought in 1977 and had been a demonstrator.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

A0wen

On Moderation
Joined
19 Jan 2008
Messages
7,451
LT did have atlanteans, 50, but sold them on very quickly at a few years old.
OT but, yes. The XA class bought alongside the 'demo' Fleetlines which were XF.

Ironically the Atlanteans were tried in the Central area and then bought for the country area and it was vice-versa for the Fleetlines.
 

RELL6L

Member
Joined
19 May 2014
Messages
971
Addressing a few questions above:

I am pretty sure the gearbox was made by Scania. It was the first bus with a torque converter of any sort as far as I am aware. The Voith 3- speed gearbox came shortly afterwards.

The West Midlands Metropolitan was not used by anyone else I don't think. I remember seeing it in London either working for a hotel or for a tour bringing people to a hotel. It might have been used for sightseeing somewhere later. Would be amazed if it had survived.

It was a complete culture shift for London. After decades of having buses made to its own specification, then over-complicating Swifts and Fleetlines, to take something totally and utterly off the shelf, identical to what everybody else had, was a huge difference. As other have said it was quality and timescale for delivering the British product, with Leyland having bought everyone else, that must have contributed to it.

In mentioning its modernity and the excitement of them being new I forgot to mention the radical windscreen design - the whole vehicle was such a breath of fresh air!

In the summary of what they worked on in London note that the 78 was a Peckham one-man route. I think Metropolitans worked this at the same time as Peckham used them on the 63 but maybe after they stopped working the 36s. Can't remember how long they carried on running the 78 at Peckham. All the other routes - 99 etc - were Plumstead routes.

LT did have Atlanteans for a while and yes, they did break down!
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
19,969
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
LT did have atlanteans, 50, but sold them on very quickly at a few years old.
IIRC, I think the Atlanteans were exported to Hong Kong whilst the Fleetlines had already passed to London Country where they met a natural end!
This is trying to delve back in my memory but I seem to remember that they bought Ailsas because they were struggling to get much else (two batches I seem to remember, with N and P plates), what was more surprising is that they bought Bristol VRs with Northern Counties bodies for use in Walsall and Wolverhampton. I seem to remember there was quite a lot of stock that was taken out of use at that time - former Birmingham two-door Fleetlines, ex Midland Red Fleetlines, quite possibly ex West Brom, Walsall and Coventry Fleetlines (sorry Mods). There was fuss locally at the time that more was not sourced locally but it was said (may be true, may not be) that they were fulfilling a big order for London.
There were 5 Titans, performance to be compared with 5 Metrobuses. There was only going to be one winner.
You may be right that WMPTE simply couldn't get Metropolitans, and hence why they had to go Scottish. They were busy withdrawing ex Midland D9s (which is why the Ailsas went to Oldbury) and they had issues with some of the other stuff as you say. I think the VRs were Metro-Cammell bodied though so that will have placated the local populace.

It was certainly an interesting time in the mid-1970s when the existing models (Fleetline, VR, Atlantean) were getting mid life revisions but then you had the next generation all being developed. The Metropolitan was certainly an interesting one. Now, here's a question... I'm fairly certain that this is a Metropolitan hidden in a barn but visible (won't share location but it's in Northants near to where I once lived). I think that it's a "new to Reading" example. Don't know if it's still there

1612969170972.png
 

carlberry

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2014
Messages
3,169
This is trying to delve back in my memory but I seem to remember that they bought Ailsas because they were struggling to get much else (two batches I seem to remember, with N and P plates), what was more surprising is that they bought Bristol VRs with Northern Counties bodies for use in Walsall and Wolverhampton. I seem to remember there was quite a lot of stock that was taken out of use at that time - former Birmingham two-door Fleetlines, ex Midland Red Fleetlines, quite possibly ex West Brom, Walsall and Coventry Fleetlines (sorry Mods). There was fuss locally at the time that more was not sourced locally but it was said (may be true, may not be) that they were fulfilling a big order for London.
There were 5 Titans, performance to be compared with 5 Metrobuses. There was only going to be one winner.

Dr Google tells me that it was taken out of service in 1983 and sold to Trathens for sight-seeing in London after 6 years service. It was bought in 1977 and had been a demonstrator.
The bus industries pressures at the time were to get rid of crew operation (for the cost but also for the staffing issue; this was a time of fairly full employment), plus the mid seventies saw major issues with most suppliers for parts so even new vehicles could be off the road for extended periods. For body manufacturers Leyland was pushing the Titan as it's new product which, like the National, meant no separate chassis to body. Despite that London had bought up the majority of Fleetline production so the West Midlands was left with reduced Fleetline availability and the alternative that Leyland had (the Atlantean) couldn't have their favorite engine and had delays anyway. The VR was available at shorter notice and could be a Gardner.

The following is all idle speculation: The Alisa/Metropolitan is much more difficult to answer as, obviously, the Metropolitan should have made more sense whereas a new chassis make, a new engine and a new body supplier shouldn't! It's possible that they had decided not go with the Metropolitan (to keep the Fleetline workers in Coventry happy) and, once Leyland moved production, MCW couldn't actually give them a good delivery date for the Metropolitans whereas Alisa could which at least was a way of giving Leyland a kicking.
 

Typhoon

Established Member
Joined
2 Nov 2017
Messages
3,488
Location
Kent
You may be right that WMPTE simply couldn't get Metropolitans, and hence why they had to go Scottish. They were busy withdrawing ex Midland D9s (which is why the Ailsas went to Oldbury) and they had issues with some of the other stuff as you say. I think the VRs were Metro-Cammell bodied though so that will have placated the local populace.
You are right - the VRs were Metro Cammell, thanks for the correction.
 

gka472l

Member
Joined
29 Apr 2016
Messages
427
A couple of other users of Metropolitans were Merseyside PTE and Kingston Upon Hull (60 and 30 respectively). Both went on to buy Metrobuses but MPTE tried just about everything including more Scania buses.

I thought they were great buses which were quiet and fast - especially acceleration. its a shame they didn't last that long and even more of a shame that only a very small number were preserved. I have a few pics in service with WYPTE, London and Leicester but have yet to scan them. Here are a couple of pics of the two that are regulars on the rally circuit:

Perserved LT MD60 Aug18 | Buses Festival, Gaydon. Aug 2018 | Flickr
Preserved Leicester 301 Aug19 | Buses festival, Gaydon. Aug … | Flickr

It would be great to see the preserved Reading bus back on the scene but I don't think its been seen for ages - I hope it is alive and well...
MPTE intended to have a couple of Scania's (presume similar to TWPTE 413/4 JFT413/4X) but never happened in the end.....no further Scania's were purchased.

HTH
 

TheSel

Member
Joined
10 Oct 2017
Messages
855
Location
Southport, Merseyside
... I think that it's a "new to Reading" example ...
Not sure about that. The route number and 'intermediate' indicator apertures look a bit big (in particular, a bit deep) for a Reading one.

Reading Metroplitan 124 - SGM124S, seen in Reading in March 1990 (my own pic)

1612973231850.png

Is it not possibly a former Greater Manchester one, the destination equipment of which looked like this:

Close up of the destination equipment of Greater Manchester PTE MCW Metropolitan 1425 - GNC277N

1612973108366.png

 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
19,969
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
Not sure about that. The route number and 'intermediate' indicator apertures look a bit big (in particular, a bit deep) for a Reading one.

Reading Metroplitan 124 - SGM124S, seen in Reading in March 1990 (my own pic)

View attachment 90356

Is it not possibly a former Greater Manchester one, the destination equipment of which looked like this:

Close up of the destination equipment of Greater Manchester PTE MCW Metropolitan 1425 - GNC277N

View attachment 90355

I think it's because the photo is a bit blurry having been nicked off Streetview. It didn't look like a GM one. Also, that side display looks longer than just a number blind which is what the GM ones had.

It was housed not far from where I lived whilst working away and I used to run past it on my evening constitutional! I suspect the GM ones went to the scrappers.
 

Statto

Established Member
Joined
8 Feb 2011
Messages
3,208
Location
At home or at the pub
I know it was touched on above, but given the local connections, it's odd that WMPTE didn't buy more Metropolitans when they were quite prepared to buy Ailsas and even had some Titans.

Of the firms that did buy Metropolitans, LT were subsequently enthusiastic purchasers of Metrobuses and Reading took 3 batches of Mk1s but others took relatively few. TWPTE took only 5 Metrobuses, and Strathclyde took only a few Mk1s before taking Mk2s in reasonable numbers. Leicester took only a few (5?) preferring Dominators. Merseyside took only a few but then again, they were flailing around taking odd batches of everything whilst still buying Atlanteans til the eleventh hour.

Were they scarred by the experience of the Metropolitan?
Merseyside were always going to buy Atlanteans as long as they were available considering one of the predecessors to the PTE[Wallasey] had the first one, & had close ties with Leyland.

Merseyside brought a batch of 60 Metropolitans to go with the small batch of Metro Scania single decks they also brought, i never rode on them, but from what everyone is saying, they were good to drive, flew between stops, but corrosion issues, along with being quite thirsty done for them, as i said GMPTE got rid of all their batch of Metropolitans on or before their 7th birthday.
 

Sprinter107

Member
Joined
26 Mar 2019
Messages
935
This is trying to delve back in my memory but I seem to remember that they bought Ailsas because they were struggling to get much else (two batches I seem to remember, with N and P plates), what was more surprising is that they bought Bristol VRs with Northern Counties bodies for use in Walsall and Wolverhampton. I seem to remember there was quite a lot of stock that was taken out of use at that time - former Birmingham two-door Fleetlines, ex Midland Red Fleetlines, quite possibly ex West Brom, Walsall and Coventry Fleetlines (sorry Mods). There was fuss locally at the time that more was not sourced locally but it was said (may be true, may not be) that they were fulfilling a big order for London.
There were 5 Titans, performance to be compared with 5 Metrobuses. There was only going to be one winner.

Dr Google tells me that it was taken out of service in 1983 and sold to Trathens for sight-seeing in London after 6 years service. It was bought in 1977 and had been a demonstrator.
Thanks very much for that info.
 

GusB

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
6,546
Location
Elginshire
Some posts have been copied to a new thread (thanks @Kremlin Stooge for creating this) which you will find here:

Please continue discussion of London's Fleetlines there. I haven't been so harsh on discussion of Metrobuses because they're one of the natural successors to the Metropolitan, but discussion of other types is creeping in. I'd ask you to consider if your post is liable to generate further discussion away from the main topic and start a new thread if necessary. It's far easier for you to do this than it is for us to try and unpick everything once we've gone too far off path!

I'd also like to reiterate that we do not permit discussion of moderation decisions within threads. If you are unhappy with a decision, report the post and we'll look into it. DO NOT continue the discussion even if you think a point needs to be made, and especially after we've requested to keep a thread on topic.
 
Last edited:

busesrusuk

Member
Joined
19 May 2020
Messages
349
Location
London
I'd say it was ex Reading as very few from elsewhere survived for preservation. I found a link here:
Bus Zone - RTL MCW Metropolitans
which suggests that 4 Reading buses survived into preservation but is quite old. Two of the four were original Reading buses (101 and 104) whilst the other two were second-hand. 416 was originally LT MD100 whilst 422 was ex Tyne & Wear.

We know that Reading 101 is still extant and a DVLA check suggests it is taxed until June 2021 but hasn't been seen for years. 416 has a SORN so maybe still around.

There is a Tyne & Wear bus under restoration in the North East - see below. The pics give a good indication of the work involved to bring it back to life:

769 OCU769R | Tyneside Heritage Vehicles

Anyone have any details of any others?
 

MotCO

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
4,085
Not sure about that. The route number and 'intermediate' indicator apertures look a bit big (in particular, a bit deep) for a Reading one.

Reading Metroplitan 124 - SGM124S, seen in Reading in March 1990 (my own pic)

View attachment 90356

Is it not possibly a former Greater Manchester one, the destination equipment of which looked like this:

Close up of the destination equipment of Greater Manchester PTE MCW Metropolitan 1425 - GNC277N

View attachment 90355


Comparing the size and relativities of the two destination layouts, I'd say the one in the barn is more Reading than GM.
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
19,969
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
Merseyside were always going to buy Atlanteans as long as they were available considering one of the predecessors to the PTE[Wallasey] had the first one, & had close ties with Leyland.

Merseyside brought a batch of 60 Metropolitans to go with the small batch of Metro Scania single decks they also brought, i never rode on them, but from what everyone is saying, they were good to drive, flew between stops, but corrosion issues, along with being quite thirsty done for them, as i said GMPTE got rid of all their batch of Metropolitans on or before their 7th birthday.
There were a number of PTEs and municipals who were long-standing Atlantean users who moved across far sooner (e.g. Lothian, Glasgow, WYPTE) but MPTE (and GMPTE to a lesser degree) continued to the end. Most PTEs dabbled with various experimental batches of new vehicles but not certain anyone had as many different "next gen" vehicles as Merseyside, starting c.1980 and was still buying Atlanteans.

This was despite (and perhaps because) they'd bought a number of VRs and Metropolitans and didn't get on with them?

The Metropolitan certainly did introduce a few design features (like the windscreen) that hadn't been seen widely before.

I'd say it was ex Reading as very few from elsewhere survived for preservation. I found a link here:
Bus Zone - RTL MCW Metropolitans
which suggests that 4 Reading buses survived into preservation but is quite old. Two of the four were original Reading buses (101 and 104) whilst the other two were second-hand. 416 was originally LT MD100 whilst 422 was ex Tyne & Wear.

We know that Reading 101 is still extant and a DVLA check suggests it is taxed until June 2021 but hasn't been seen for years. 416 has a SORN so maybe still around.

There is a Tyne & Wear bus under restoration in the North East - see below. The pics give a good indication of the work involved to bring it back to life:

769 OCU769R | Tyneside Heritage Vehicles

Anyone have any details of any others?
Hmmm - wonder if that barn one is one of 101/104 of Reading?
 
Last edited:

busesrusuk

Member
Joined
19 May 2020
Messages
349
Location
London
GMPTE would give MPTE a good run for its money with Volvo Ailsa, Volvo Citybus, Scania, Olympian, Titan, Dennis Dominator and Falcon, Foden and Metrobus all bought in the 80's!
 

carlberry

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2014
Messages
3,169
I'd say it was ex Reading as very few from elsewhere survived for preservation. I found a link here:
Bus Zone - RTL MCW Metropolitans
which suggests that 4 Reading buses survived into preservation but is quite old. Two of the four were original Reading buses (101 and 104) whilst the other two were second-hand. 416 was originally LT MD100 whilst 422 was ex Tyne & Wear.

We know that Reading 101 is still extant and a DVLA check suggests it is taxed until June 2021 but hasn't been seen for years. 416 has a SORN so maybe still around.

There is a Tyne & Wear bus under restoration in the North East - see below. The pics give a good indication of the work involved to bring it back to life:

769 OCU769R | Tyneside Heritage Vehicles

Anyone have any details of any others?
MD1 went to the Scania museum in Sweden however I don't know if it's still there.

Wikipedia says 'MD9 exists on a farm in Potton, Bedfordshire'

The latest PSV circle list (2018) shows MD14 with 'Project Metropolitan, Leicester' along with GJF274N from Leicester
KRH411P Hull 411 in Rainham for spares
MD100 in Reading
ORD105R in Reading for spares, ORD106R in Merthyr Tydfil
OCU769/72/75R in Newcastle, Reading and Reading
 

busesrusuk

Member
Joined
19 May 2020
Messages
349
Location
London
There were a number of PTEs and municipals who were long-standing Atlantean users who moved across far sooner (e.g. Lothian, Glasgow, WYPTE) but MPTE (and GMPTE to a lesser degree) continued to the end. Most PTEs dabbled with various experimental batches of new vehicles but not certain anyone had as many different "next gen" vehicles as Merseyside, starting c.1980 and was still buying Atlanteans.

This was despite (and perhaps because) they'd bought a number of VRs and Metropolitans and didn't get on with them?

The Metropolitan certainly did introduce a few design features (like the windscreen) that hadn't been seen widely before.


Hmmm - wonder if that barn one is one of 101/104 of Reading?
I's not 101 as that has a different destination layout. See here:

1 | Reading Transport 1, GRX1N, Scania BR111DH/MCW Metropoli… | Flickr
 
Joined
25 Jan 2021
Messages
281
Location
Bristol
In the summary of what they worked on in London note that the 78 was a Peckham one-man route. I think Metropolitans worked this at the same time as Peckham used them on the 63 but maybe after they stopped working the 36s. Can't remember how long they carried on running the 78 at Peckham. All the other routes - 99 etc - were Plumstead routes.
Apologies for any misleading info; deconstructing Lawrie Bowles’ writings, it does appear that the 78 remained a one-man-operated Metropolitan route out of Peckham garage until the opening of the new Plumstead PD garage on 31-10-81, at which point the 78 switched to LS-class National operation, with the MDs transferring to PD for expanded operations including the 161, taking over Catford’s work on the 180, plus a then-new route 291 which was a replacement for the 151/192.

I may be going out on a limb here, but I’m going to propose that Plumstead PD was the only new garage/depot in the UK to open with an allocation solely of Metropolitans.
 

Swanny200

Member
Joined
18 Sep 2010
Messages
665
ex tyne and wear 769 is I hope going to be saved, it looks like it needs a lot of work, but having already had some work done to the corrosion at the rear, hopefully we can see it running again, considering how well done the rest of the Tyneside Heritage fleet are, it should be good as new, I hope!
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
19,969
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
MD1 went to the Scania museum in Sweden however I don't know if it's still there.

Wikipedia says 'MD9 exists on a farm in Potton, Bedfordshire'

The latest PSV circle list (2018) shows MD14 with 'Project Metropolitan, Leicester' along with GJF274N from Leicester
KRH411P Hull 411 in Rainham for spares
MD100 in Reading
ORD105R in Reading for spares, ORD106R in Merthyr Tydfil
OCU769/72/75R in Newcastle, Reading and Reading
Apparently, MD9 is still used by a riding stables

As for MD100 and Leicester 274 (credit to photographer)

I's not 101 as that has a different destination layout. See here:

1 | Reading Transport 1, GRX1N, Scania BR111DH/MCW Metropoli… | Flickr
Good point
 
Joined
25 Jan 2021
Messages
281
Location
Bristol
Here’s a little nugget from the 1983 London Transport Buses book; apparently the Metropolitans were the first double-deckers in the fleet to be produced to the ‘Quiet Bus’ specification...

o_O

In fact, I did a double-take...

o_Oo_O
 

RELL6L

Member
Joined
19 May 2014
Messages
971
Here’s a little nugget from the 1983 London Transport Buses book; apparently the Metropolitans were the first double-deckers in the fleet to be produced to the ‘Quiet Bus’ specification...

o_O

In fact, I did a double-take...

o_Oo_O
Yes, the single deckers were louder!
 
Last edited:

A0wen

On Moderation
Joined
19 Jan 2008
Messages
7,451
Wikipedia says 'MD9 exists on a farm in Potton, Bedfordshire'

Exists is probably generous - it was pretty rough when it was passed to the stables by Charles Cook - not my photo so acknowledgement to the owner.

 

busesrusuk

Member
Joined
19 May 2020
Messages
349
Location
London
MD1 went to the Scania museum in Sweden however I don't know if it's still there.

Wikipedia says 'MD9 exists on a farm in Potton, Bedfordshire'

The latest PSV circle list (2018) shows MD14 with 'Project Metropolitan, Leicester' along with GJF274N from Leicester
KRH411P Hull 411 in Rainham for spares
MD100 in Reading
ORD105R in Reading for spares, ORD106R in Merthyr Tydfil
OCU769/72/75R in Newcastle, Reading and Reading

Exists is probably generous - it was pretty rough when it was passed to the stables by Charles Cook - not my photo so acknowledgement to the owner.

Would love to know if its still there and what condition its in now..
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top