Scotland - Framework out of the pandemic - 23rd February 2021

[route101]

Last few weeks noticed more people out and about. Even I have taken the bus and train to go further for walks.

 

[Journeyman]

Last few weeks noticed more people out and about. Even I have taken the bus and train to go further for walks.

I have as well, although I haven't gone particularly far. I get the feeling the stay-in-your-local-authority rule is now being ignored on a large scale.

 

[liam456]

I'm eternally grateful to Scottish public opinion turning on Sturgeon's plan of 'unlock slower than England just so we can be seen to be tougher on the virus' and seeing her have to react by accelerating the unlock plan as seen on some big news outlets.

 

[route101]

I have as well, although I haven't gone particularly far. I get the feeling the stay-in-your-local-authority rule is now being ignored on a large scale.

I live very close to two local authorities, easy to cross into the others.

 

[Journeyman]

I live very close to two local authorities, easy to cross into the others.

I'm only about 300m away from a boundary. Living life without crossing it is actually very difficult.

 

[takno]

I have as well, although I haven't gone particularly far. I get the feeling the stay-in-your-local-authority rule is now being ignored on a large scale.

A lot of people I know who are generally pretty compliant with the rules couldn't tell you where the local authority boundaries are anyway. I live pretty much in central Edinburgh and if I went out for a walk for an hour or two I could easily end up in East Lothian without really being aware of it.

 

[scotrail158713]

A lot of people I know who are generally pretty compliant with the rules couldn't tell you where the local authority boundaries are anyway. I live pretty much in central Edinburgh and if I went out for a walk for an hour or two I could easily end up in East Lothian without really being aware of it.

That would still be legal as long as you didn’t go too far into East Lothian. You are able to go up to 5 miles over a local authority boundary for exercise.

NRS Web Continuity Service

www.gov.scot

Exercise can start and finish at a place in your local authority area (or up to 5 miles from the boundary of your local authority area)

 

[Scotrail12]

On a train out of Queen St Low Level - it is flipping busy and also really loud with little distancing. Are the govt oblivious to the lack of desire for lockdowns? It’s done? get over it! Also wondering what metrics our good friends at ScotFail are using to put the minimum number of carriages on every train possible - they claim that only 10% of the number of people who usually travel are using trains now - BS!!

 

[Scotrail314209]

On a train out of Queen St Low Level - it is flipping busy and also really loud with little distancing. Are the govt oblivious to the lack of desire for lockdowns? It’s done? get over it! Also wondering what metrics our good friends at ScotFail are using to put the minimum number of carriages on every train possible - they claim that only 10% of the number of people who usually travel are using trains now - BS!!

From what I've seen, all the trains from Helensburgh to Edinburgh seem to be three car sets, with the Balloch services enjoying a six car. Or was your train going to Milngavie or Springburn?

 

[Scotrail12]

From what I've seen, all the trains from Helensburgh to Edinburgh seem to be three car sets, with the Balloch services enjoying a six car. Or was your train going to Milngavie or Springburn?

Was a Balloch-Airdrie, just a 3 coach 320.

 

[route101]

A lot of people I know who are generally pretty compliant with the rules couldn't tell you where the local authority boundaries are anyway. I live pretty much in central Edinburgh and if I went out for a walk for an hour or two I could easily end up in East Lothian without really being aware of it.

Edinburgh is a bit different as most of the City is in one council area, if you lived in Liberton you can visit the City Centre. In Glasgow its all different council areas, if you lived in Busby you couldn't go to Glasgow City Centre! Very little if any chance of getting stopped though.

On a train out of Queen St Low Level - it is flipping busy and also really loud with little distancing. Are the govt oblivious to the lack of desire for lockdowns? It’s done? get over it! Also wondering what metrics our good friends at ScotFail are using to put the minimum number of carriages on every train possible - they claim that only 10% of the number of people who usually travel are using trains now - BS!!

Noticed things getting busier last few weeks, two car 156 on East Kilbride peak service. Police in Glasgow Central, never seen them ask anyone. I think people are starting to make their own minds up.

 

[Peter0124]

On a train out of Queen St Low Level - it is flipping busy and also really loud with little distancing. Are the govt oblivious to the lack of desire for lockdowns? It’s done? get over it! Also wondering what metrics our good friends at ScotFail are using to put the minimum number of carriages on every train possible - they claim that only 10% of the number of people who usually travel are using trains now - BS!!

Was on a 3 coach 320 from Newton yesterday and there was about 7 or 8 people standing at the doors!

 

[Scotrail314209]

The trains through Saltcoats have been genuinely decent in terms of loading, but a lot of it is teenagers going to Irvine to avoid paying for the bus. I'd imagine that drop once schools return.

 

[Kite159]

On a train out of Queen St Low Level - it is flipping busy and also really loud with little distancing. Are the govt oblivious to the lack of desire for lockdowns? It’s done? get over it! Also wondering what metrics our good friends at ScotFail are using to put the minimum number of carriages on every train possible - they claim that only 10% of the number of people who usually travel are using trains now - BS!!

Are they using numbers based on ticket sales?

After-all assuming Scotrail staff are still carrying out no revenue checks, there must be a fair few travellers who have gotten used to only buying tickets when they are using a station with barriers as they think they won't get caught out

 

[Gadget88]

April 5th I believe is the plan for Scotland.

31 days to go...

BBC said 15th March so they can canvass for the election?

 

[Chester1]

It will be interesting to see when the SNP decide its safe enough to allow non essential travel to and from England....

 

[Huntergreed]

It will be interesting to see when the SNP decide its safe enough to allow non essential travel to and from England....

I'm planning on allowing it (for myself) within a matter of days...

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

BBC said 15th March so they can canvass for the election?

If you've got a source for that, that would be appreciated - I don't think I've seen March 15th quoted anywhere yet

 

[Gadget88]

If you've got a source for that, that would be appreciated - I don't think I've seen March 15th quoted anywhere yet

Activists will be allowed to resume leafleting from 15 March if the "stay at home" order has been lifted by then, while face-to-face doorstep campaigning can start from 5 April if the infection rate has fallen low enough.

Holyrood election count 'to be held over weekend' - BBC News

The Scottish Parliament election will go ahead on 6 May, but the results may not be known for several days.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[devon_metro]

It will be interesting to see when the SNP decide its safe enough to allow non essential travel to and from England....

If they continue to strive for zero covid, then in theory, never, since the UKG has sensibly decided its a fools game and covid will now always be present.

 

[Huntergreed]

If they continue to strive for zero covid, then in theory, never, since the UKG has sensibly decided its a fools game and covid will now always be present.

Who will police that? There’s nowhere near enough police in Scotland to do that, and the English police have no duty to enforce Scottish law, so I can’t see it happening in practice.

I know people who have to cross the border on a daily basis for university, work and caring (both by road and on the 156 from here down to Carlisle), this won’t stop just because of some political stunt by the Scottish nationalists to try and win votes by appealing to the public’s favourable view even though they know fine well it’s a scientific and epidemiological impossibility.

 

[HSTEd]

Who will police that? There’s nowhere near enough police in Scotland to do that, and the English police have no duty to enforce Scottish law, so I can’t see it happening in practice.

I know people who have to cross the border on a daily basis for university, work and caring (both by road and on the 156 from here down to Carlisle), this won’t stop just because of some political stunt by the Scottish nationalists to try and win votes by appealing to the public’s favourable view even though they know fine well it’s a scientific and epidemiological impossibility.

With Scotland having only one territorial police force, virtually all police officers in Scotland, excluding BTP, MODP and CNC will be available to the Scottish government to enforce restrictions.

There aren't really that many border crossing points for motorised vehicles.

The really interesting question is what impact the polling over the last 24 hours will have on the Government policy - two polls showing a unionist lead in a referendum question, and one showing a substantial swing for Holyrood.

 

[Huntergreed]

With Scotland having only one territorial police force, virtually all police officers in Scotland, excluding BTP, MODP and CNC will be available to the Scottish government to enforce restrictions.

There aren't really that many border crossing points for motorised vehicles.

The really interesting question is what impact the polling over the last 24 hours will have on the Government policy - two polls showing a unionist lead in a referendum question, and one showing a substantial swing for Holyrood.

There are plenty of border crossing points (at least over a dozen, I imagine over twenty), so this would not work unless a substantial increase in police numbers took place rather imminently (unlikely). There are also 3 rail routes, served by Scotrail, Northern Avanti, TPE, XC and LNER.

In theory yes, it might work to reduce transmission, but in practice it’s not at all feasible or sensible.

 

[HSTEd]

There are plenty of border crossing points (at least over a dozen, I imagine over twenty), so this would not work unless a substantial increase in police numbers took place rather imminently (unlikely). There are also 3 rail routes, served by Scotrail, Northern Avanti, TPE, XC and LNER.

I make 33 crossing points, including two by rail. It's late and I might have missed some tracks in the mountainous interior.

Obviously the trains would either be ordered stopped outright or all ordered to stop at the first station in Scotland, where the train would be cleared and the passengers inspected.

Rule of thumb is six staff for one 24 hour covered position, so two officers at each border crossing 24 hours a day would only require 396 personnel.

Police Scotland has 17,259 sworn constables on strength.
It's well within their capability.

In theory yes, it might work to reduce transmission, but in practice it’s not at all feasible or sensible.

It might not be sensible, but it is certainly feasible.

 

[devon_metro]

I make 33 crossing points, including two by rail. It's late and I might have missed some tracks in the mountainous interior.

Obviously the trains would either be ordered stopped outright or all ordered to stop at the first station in Scotland, where the train would be cleared and the passengers inspected.

Rule of thumb is six staff for one 24 hour covered position, so two officers at each border crossing 24 hours a day would only require 396 personnel.

Police Scotland has 17,259 sworn constables on strength.
It's well within their capability.

It might not be sensible, but it is certainly feasible.

None of this will happen. Police Scotland can't deal with day to day crime let alone blockading the M74/A1 - plus all the other minor routes. The M6/M74 is a 3 lane carriageway, it would cause chaos. Scotland is heavily reliant on cross border freight too. During covid, they've largely relied on policing by consent and that would rapidly break down if anything like what you've suggested happened.

 

[route101]

I make 33 crossing points, including two by rail. It's late and I might have missed some tracks in the mountainous interior.

Obviously the trains would either be ordered stopped outright or all ordered to stop at the first station in Scotland, where the train would be cleared and the passengers inspected.

Rule of thumb is six staff for one 24 hour covered position, so two officers at each border crossing 24 hours a day would only require 396 personnel.

Police Scotland has 17,259 sworn constables on strength.
It's well within their capability.

It might not be sensible, but it is certainly feasible.

Not seen any checks at Glasgow Central for English bound services. Don't think they have the resource.

Are they using numbers based on ticket sales?

After-all assuming Scotrail staff are still carrying out no revenue checks, there must be a fair few travellers who have gotten used to only buying tickets when they are using a station with barriers as they think they won't get caught out

I know people are just buying a ticket from last station to Glasgow Central to get through barriers. I seen someone ask for a High St to Queen St at the barrier few months ago and the gateline guy was having none of it.

 

[Red Onion]

I make 33 crossing points, including two by rail. It's late and I might have missed some tracks in the mountainous interior.

Obviously the trains would either be ordered stopped outright or all ordered to stop at the first station in Scotland, where the train would be cleared and the passengers inspected.

Rule of thumb is six staff for one 24 hour covered position, so two officers at each border crossing 24 hours a day would only require 396 personnel.

Police Scotland has 17,259 sworn constables on strength.
It's well within their capability.

It might not be sensible, but it is certainly feasible.

The question is where do you take the officers from? Local divisions are absolutely on their knees just now with other departments suffering their own shortfall in staffing and in some occasions having to backfill in for local officers. 396 officers? Based on two a shift on each post? Have you taken into account rest days or even rest breaks for officers? In addition, you’d need supervisory positions, administrative staff, escort teams for any detainees (none of the border points are near a major police station, save for maybe Gretna) and so on. The numbers of staff for it start to mount up and there’s no hope Police Scotland has the resourcing to do so.

There is also the matter of infrastructure. Where do you conduct these checks, in a manner that is safe for both motorists and staff and provides relevant welfare facilities for both groups? Bearing in mind, as you say, two officers per crossing point is going to take a LONG time to process the volume of traffic crossing the border at points such as M6/A74(M) or A1 and the resultant tailbacks on the roads which cause their own hazards.

It’s simply not workable.

 

[HSTEd]

Have you taken into account rest days or even rest breaks for officers?

My understanding is the 6:1 takes account of this.

 

[317 forever]

I'm planning on allowing it (for myself) within a matter of days...

Given that in England we shall be allowed to meet up with 1 friend outdoors from tomorrow, it should be permitted to travel anywhere just for the day to meet our friend. Hopefully no police would ask us who our friend at our destination is.

 

[Gadget88]

Sturgeon has said lockdown exit could be delayed due to football fans gathering today.