Scotrail absolving themselves of responsibility?

[norbitonflyer]

Contract law allows the principle of "force majeure", when a contractual arrangement is frustrated by some cause outside the control of both parties to the contract. There has been a lot of that recently - I have had many gigs cancelled recently. Whether the performers got paid depended on many factors such as whether the promoter can afford it, (which may in turn depend on whether their insurance covers epidemics), or whether the performers have other sources of income (e.g have a day job, or are on furlough pay). In most cases goodwill has found a way, plus a pragmatic recognition that if either party goes out of business (or changes career) there will be no future gigs when this is all over.

Likewise, if some factor outside the railway's control stops services running, and alternative facilities are not available in sufficient supply ("even for ready money", to quote Oscar Wilde), what is the railway supposed to do?

 

[SteveM70]

ScotRail would not have a means of booking Ubers for passengers and Edinburgh has lots of these.

That may be the case, but is there a reason why they couldn’t?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That may be the case, but is there a reason why they couldn’t?

You can only book an Uber on a mobile phone or tablet, with one app being able to book one car at any one time. You'd need a lot of mobile phones, and it would be hard to deal with any issues because the service is set up for the person booking it on the app to be a passenger. And it might be that it'll only accept a certain number of parallel journeys on one card before hitting anti-fraud limits, too. So there's no practical way you could deal with the situation under discussion other than "get your own and we'll refund it".

Uber might at some point want to get into that sort of contract business where you could book and pay for lots centrally from a website, but they aren't in it as things stand.

 

[SteveM70]

You can only book an Uber on a mobile phone or tablet, with one app being able to book one car at any one time. You'd need a lot of mobile phones, and it would be hard to deal with any issues because the service is set up for the person booking it on the app to be a passenger. And it might be that it'll only accept a certain number of parallel journeys on one card before hitting anti-fraud limits, too. So there's no practical way you could deal with the situation under discussion other than "get your own and we'll refund it".

Ah right, fair enough. You can probably tell I’ve never used an Uber

 

[Class83]

This year accommodation in Edinburgh is more available than normal (I just looked at the Premier Inn site and at 11pm on an August Friday there is availability, not a normal thing) so they could probably have got accommodation. Tbh, do Scotrail have enough staff to put everyone in a hotel or taxi, no. Do Scotrail have enough money to reimburse all ticket holders who get a hotel or taxi, yes. They should have stated that directly on twitter, facebook and their own website, plus over the station tannoy and noticeboards.

 

[Merseysider]

The cost of a hotel may (or not?) be part of it.

If there are just 1000 passengers per evening at various stations around Edinburgh trying to get places, the cost to put them up could easily run into 6 figures a night.

Much cheaper just to send them on their way and reimburse the odd passenger who complains hard.

/cynical

 

[RT4038]

The cost of a hotel may (or not?) be part of it.

If there are just 1000 passengers per evening at various stations around Edinburgh trying to get places, the cost to put them up could easily run into 6 figures a night.

Much cheaper just to send them on their way and reimburse the odd passenger who complains hard.

/cynical

You don't need to be cynical. What company wouldn't have done that? The alternative would be either a thousand agitated stroppy passengers forming a long queue at the Waverley Station for assistance, probably taking to 6am and beyond for the few available staff to deal with, or a general call for people to make their own hotel and taxi arrangements and submit their claim - open house to call a relative to come over from Fife or somewhere to fetch you and claiming £600 'taxi' fare, or £750 for a friend to put you up on their sofa.

I am sure any passengers who genuinely could not make their own arrangements would have been helped.

 

[Deltic1961]

I would never ever trust Scotrail for anything important, for example a day away or a trip to the airport. So many things to go wrong.

There have been plenty central belt meltdowns in the past with thousands of people left stranded.

Final straw for me was stranding my son in Aberdeen at 11pm as they had cancelled the last train at short notice due to lack of crew.

Yes I do take the train but I'm always wary of things going wrong at short notice .... always have a plan B as they just can't be relied on at all.

 

[Alex C.]

You can only book an Uber on a mobile phone or tablet, with one app being able to book one car at any one time. You'd need a lot of mobile phones, and it would be hard to deal with any issues because the service is set up for the person booking it on the app to be a passenger. And it might be that it'll only accept a certain number of parallel journeys on one card before hitting anti-fraud limits, too. So there's no practical way you could deal with the situation under discussion other than "get your own and we'll refund it".

Uber might at some point want to get into that sort of contract business where you could book and pay for lots centrally from a website, but they aren't in it as things stand.

Are you sure on this? Uber have a pretty comprehensive business offering which allows businesses to either centrally book rides (updates provided to customers by text) or issue voucher codes to riders. This would fit this situation perfectly. I've not used it personally but I have worked somewhere where I was under the impression it was in use, although it may just have been a very efficient usage of the mobile app. I suspect that the admin might logistically make it a more difficult option than asking customers to reclaim or issuing taxi drivers with dockets though.

I'd most likely pay myself and reclaim afterwards after getting some form of written authorisation from a member of staff - although this isn't always an easy process, with some members of staff very reluctant to put their name to anything.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Are you sure on this? Uber have a pretty comprehensive business offering which allows businesses to either centrally book rides (updates provided to customers by text) or issue voucher codes to riders. This would fit this situation perfectly.

I suspect that Uber is not on ScotRail's "approved supplier" list (or any other TOC's for that matter).

They'll likely have a contract in place with a company like Cabline or CMAC to handle both planned and unplanned taxi/private hire requirements, which all bookings will need to go through.

If none of the local operators the handling company has a contract with can source vehicles, there's very little the TOC can do.

 

[gallafent]

You can only book an Uber on a mobile phone or tablet, with one app being able to book one car at any one time.

I just discovered that you can get almost all the way to booking from the uber website, but at the last hurdle you get a “Web booking is currently not available in your region. Please use the Uber app” message … but even if they switch that on for the UK, your key point stands, you're booking for one account (which is associated with a mobile phone number), as far as I know there isn't a way to book in a “corporate” way for several people / different journeys, from the same account. I imagine it's coming before long though, hence the (not-switched-on-yet) website booking flow.

Are you sure on this? Uber have a pretty comprehensive business offering which allows businesses to either centrally book rides (updates provided to customers by text) or issue voucher codes to riders.

Aha! I was unaware of this. Note to self, read to bottom of existing thread before conjecturing!

 

[SteveM70]

I suspect that Uber is not on ScotRail's "approved supplier" list (or any other TOC's for that matter).

So here’s the crux of the issue

 

[Bletchleyite]

Aha! I was unaware of this. Note to self, read to bottom of existing thread before conjecturing!

I didn't know that either. But the original point still essentially stands - if they didn't have such an arrangement because the usual supplier can normally handle it, they can go out and negotiate with individual black cab drivers or ring the local minicab company and negotiate with them, but absent such a deal there isn't any practical way to get a load of prepaid Ubers.

 

[RT4038]

I would never ever trust Scotrail for anything important, for example a day away or a trip to the airport. So many things to go wrong.

There have been plenty central belt meltdowns in the past with thousands of people left stranded.

Final straw for me was stranding my son in Aberdeen at 11pm as they had cancelled the last train at short notice due to lack of crew.

Yes I do take the train but I'm always wary of things going wrong at short notice .... always have a plan B as they just can't be relied on at all.

And thus it has ever been - why single out Scotrail or the railways? It can happen with any transport operator. Indeed, if you travel by your own car there can be a catastrophic failure which can take hours to sort out, potentially leaving you stranded. Yes, always have some kind of Plan B ('phone someone to come and get you, or a plastic card to pay for a night's accommodation) or risk (the pretty rare event) of staying out all night. The meltdown may not be the transport operator anyway - you misread the timetable, or the watch battery stops, and you miss the last train!

 

[Deltic1961]

Because that's where 90% plus of the screw-ups have occurred. I've not had a car break down ever, can't remember the last time my bus never turned up.

I'm perfectly capable of planning my journeys and keeping good time, but using Scotrail is a constant gamble.

The whole rail system is too fragile.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because that's where 90% of the screw-ups have occurred. I've not had a car break down ever, can't remember the last time my bus never turned up.

You clearly don't use Arriva MK, then. (Buses are very variable)

The whole rail system is too fragile.

Some parts of it are but most of it in my experience isn't.

 

[RT4038]

I've not had a car break down ever, can't remember the last time my bus never turned up.

A very lucky person then. Maybe you've still got all this to come........?

 

[Robertj21a]

Because that's where 90% plus of the screw-ups have occurred. I've not had a car break down ever, can't remember the last time my bus never turned up.

I'm perfectly capable of planning my journeys and keeping good time, but using Scotrail is a constant gamble.

The whole rail system is too fragile.

Just because it hasn't happened to you - yet - doesn't mean that you shouldn't prepare for if/when it does.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Just because it hasn't happened to you - yet - doesn't mean that you shouldn't prepare for if/when it does.

Starting to drift off topic, although modern day cars are less likely to break down these days than their equivalent from 40 / 50 years ago, IMHO.

Suspect that ScotRail were overwhelmed by the circumstances on 23rd July and simply couldn't cope, as not being able to run most services between Waverley and Haymarket (and onwards) would arguably have affected one of the most busiest parts of their network, and thus a lot of passengers.

So possibly this explains the decision to make an early shout to tell intending passengers that they may have to make their own arrangements to complete their journeys, but there should also still be an expectation for ScotRail to reimburse anyone who was affected for any reasonable additional expenditure incurred that night (and in any event, won't ScotRail, in turn, be due a fair old amount of compo from Network Rail, to offset this?)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Starting to drift off topic, although modern day cars are less likely to break down these days than their equivalent from 40 / 50 years ago, IMHO.

A "full" breakdown that renders it impossible to complete your journey is very, very unlikely indeed if you run a modern car no more than perhaps 6-8 years old/about 100K miles and maintain it entirely to the manufacturer's specification* rather than skimping, as well as driving with a bit of mechanical sympathy (i.e. not riding the clutch etc). Even blowouts are mostly caused by people waiting too long to replace tyres and them being near-bald or perished, though obviously you can be unlucky and pick up a nail.

* Including any quirks, for example the infamous PSA (Peugeot/Citroen, I don't know what it actually stands for) 1.4 turbodiesel which required oil changes to be conducted in a very specific way to avoid detritus building up in pipework and causing repeated blown turbochargers.

 

[RT4038]

A "full" breakdown that renders it impossible to complete your journey is very, very unlikely indeed if you run a modern car no more than perhaps 6-8 years old/about 100K miles and maintain it entirely to the manufacturer's specification* rather than skimping, as well as driving with a bit of mechanical sympathy (i.e. not riding the clutch etc). Even blowouts are mostly caused by people waiting too long to replace tyres and them being near-bald or perished, though obviously you can be unlucky and pick up a nail.

* Including any quirks, for example the infamous PSA (Peugeot/Citroen, I don't know what it actually stands for) 1.4 turbodiesel which required oil changes to be conducted in a very specific way to avoid detritus building up in pipework and causing repeated blown turbochargers.

You are right, but lots of people don't maintain their cars 'entirely to the manufacturers specification' or only own vehicles less than 6-8 years old, or have mechanical sympathy etc etc. Exhausts fall off, tyres get damaged in potholes, accidents happen, vandalism/theft happens, windscreens shatter, snow on the M11 etc etc. Granted not very often, but how often do public transport providers not get you (as an individual) to your destination at all? Not very often, in my experience. And as you can mitigate your car failures, as you mention, it is also possible to mitigate public transport failure by leaving earlier for an appointment, not going for the last departure home etc. A few times in your lifetime you'll be badly caught out - big deal.

 

[alangla]

Having experienced a cancelled last train in the past, the transport provider that is the subject of this thread don’t always make it easy to get to your destination. A late night hunt round Glasgow Central looking for the duty station manager followed by a long wait in the rain outside with the other two people who’d managed to locate her, but no staff, wasn’t much fun. Nothing on the board for the cancelled train offering alternative transport and basically grunts from the other station staff about talking to the duty manager.
To give her her due, when I did locate her and say I was stranded because my last train had been cancelled, she called control to book a taxi immediately, but the whole process was anything but straightforward.

 

[MotCO]

You are right, but lots of people don't maintain their cars 'entirely to the manufacturers specification' or only own vehicles less than 6-8 years old, or have mechanical sympathy etc etc. Exhausts fall off, tyres get damaged in potholes, accidents happen, vandalism/theft happens, windscreens shatter, snow on the M11 etc etc. Granted not very often, but how often do public transport providers not get you (as an individual) to your destination at all? Not very often, in my experience. And as you can mitigate your car failures, as you mention, it is also possible to mitigate public transport failure by leaving earlier for an appointment, not going for the last departure home etc. A few times in your lifetime you'll be badly caught out - big deal.

A better example would be being stuck overnight in a snowdrift on the M62 in midwinter - apart from waiting for the emergency services to rescue you, what can you do?

 

[Deltic1961]

That's extreme circumstances. Scotrail's services crap out for so many different reasons at normal times when you would least be expecting it.

 

[cactustwirly]

A "full" breakdown that renders it impossible to complete your journey is very, very unlikely indeed if you run a modern car no more than perhaps 6-8 years old/about 100K miles and maintain it entirely to the manufacturer's specification* rather than skimping, as well as driving with a bit of mechanical sympathy (i.e. not riding the clutch etc). Even blowouts are mostly caused by people waiting too long to replace tyres and them being near-bald or perished, though obviously you can be unlucky and pick up a nail.

* Including any quirks, for example the infamous PSA (Peugeot/Citroen, I don't know what it actually stands for) 1.4 turbodiesel which required oil changes to be conducted in a very specific way to avoid detritus building up in pipework and causing repeated blown turbochargers.

Clearly not driven a modern BMW, Mini or VAG car then?
These are notorious (certain engines) for the timing chains snapping prematurely, and the engine obviously destroying itself instantaneously.

Modern cars can also go into limp mode for variety of reasons, this happened to me recently on a test drive of a car I was about to buy, believe it or not!

In any case, most people have breakdown cover, so they at least have an alternative to get home if they do break down.

 

[40129]

Once had an experience where I was almost stranded on public transport late at night.

Cross Country train was 45 minutes late off Temple Meads meaning that 15-20 of us missed the last Barnstaple train from Exeter St David's. The TM was very helpful and was able to arrange taxis to Barnstaple. However, the delay and the taxi journey meant that I'd missed the last bus to Westwood Ho! Thankfully, the taxi driver agreed to drop me at Barnstaple bus station rather than the train station and I was able to catch the last bus to Bideford. This would/should have left me stranded in Bideford and having to hunt down a taxi late on a Sunday evening except that the bus driver very kindly offered to drive me home in exchange for a fiver, on condition that I didn't write to the bus company to thank him (apparently First would have fired him for going above and beyond to get me home).

RE car breakdowns, I've suffered a blow out and was only able to get back on the road due to having breakdown cover via my bank and having cellphone reception at the place where I broke down. My ex-partner was extremely lucky/unlucky to have her cam belt fail in the fast lane of the M6 but be able to limp to the hard shoulder without being hit - again the bank account breakdown cover came to the rescue