Scotrail absolving themselves of responsibility?

[DarloRich]

Bit of personal planning and some local empowerment can make a difference.

Harder if you have no cash in your pocket or account but I have been in that position and still found a way home thanks to the generosity of others. The response being: Do the same for someone in the same position next time!

On the TOC side a lot depends on the delegation of responsibility to local staff and often the gumption & morale of those staff members.

 

[jumble]

Welcome to 2021. If I agree a contract, I'd expect it to be honoured. If they can't provide the service then I'd expect the situation to be put right.
Ask as much as you like for people to make other arrangements, but at the end of the day, the company that took your money needs to step up. If it means when they can't get buses, then it's taxis.

I'd take a different stance if it was out with their control, like a fatality, but for an infrastructure failure where they will receive compensation, or a train fault, then I'm afraid they need to step up.

I suspect you have no concept of running a business as you would know that no company can guarantee anything
If there are no Taxis or Busses physically available then all the wishing to help people get home doesn't help.
You must not forget that any Taxi is not likely to want to assist on the first friday of freedom week
I am making assumptions below
Taxis will be busy with normal punters and so discounted rates that Scotrail will want to pay will not be attractive
Scotrail will not pay up in a timely fashion

 

[ScotsRail]

You must not forget that any Taxi is not likely to want to assist on the first friday of freedom week

It wasnt "Freedom week" in Scotland though.

 

[AY1975]

I suspect you have no concept of running a business as you would know that no company can guarantee anything
If there are no Taxis or Busses physically available then all the wishing to help people get home doesn't help.
You must not forget that any Taxi is not likely to want to assist on the first friday of freedom week
I am making assumptions below
Taxis will be busy with normal punters and so discounted rates that Scotrail will want to pay will not be attractive
Scotrail will not pay up in a timely fashion

Maybe, but the fact remains that train operators have a duty of care towards passengers who already hold valid tickets which they had bought before they knew that there was going to be a problem and who turn up at a station in time for the last train on a particular route.

If they are unable to run the last train of the day on a particular route for any reason, and there are any passengers who intended to travel on that train who already have tickets, then they are supposed to arrange replacement road transport wherever possible, or failing that, try to arrange overnight accommodation for any passengers who were travelling home (and who do not know anyone who could put them up at short notice).

If neither of those are possible, then they should, at the very least, tell passengers that they will have to take a taxi or stay somewhere that night at their own expense but that they will be able to reclaim the cost from the train operator afterwards (or at least claim Rail Travel Vouchers to cover the cost). For passengers who cannot afford to do this and who do not know anyone nearby who could put them up or give them a lift home, the train operator should, as the very last of all last resorts, at least provide them with somewhere safe on railway property to spend the night even if it's not very comfortable for sleeping (such as a stationary train or a station waiting room/passenger lounge or station supervisor's office).

Unsatisfactory though the latter solution is, it is at least preferable to being expected to either spend the whole night wandering the streets of the town or city where you have been left stranded or try to find a cafe or bar that's open all night.

There have been a number of other threads in the past about similar occurrences with other train operators, such as this one: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/cancellation-of-last-train.155880/

 

[Steddenm]

During the first lockdown I was in the Republic of Ireland and needed to leave the country or be stranded. Irish Rail couldn't operate the last Enterprise service up to Belfast Lanyon Place due to a problem with the signalling at the border, and as there were only a couple of us travelling, the guard went to the ticket office, took €150 out of it, handed it to me and said to get a taxi for us all and post the receipt back to CIÉ. I did what he said and we trundled up the N1, M1 and A1 to Belfast with a very happy taxi driver, and obtained a receipt from him. Posted this back to CIÉ at Heuston Station with a note explaining what it was for. A few days later I got a letter back from them with a cheque for €150, plus the price of the 1stPlus fare, a €60 gesture of goodwill and a €100 Leap card for the inconvenience. I called the number on the letter and explained that the guard had taken the cash from the ticket office and they said to keep the money as it was their mistake.

The original time it took for the guard to arrange the cash from the train being cancelled was about ten minutes. No call to IÉ control, but a brief conversation with somebody in the ticket office.

I know that ScotRail were unable to provide taxis or replacement buses the other night because of other issues, but surely they must have been able to do something, rather than palm passengers off with "we cannot help any further"? Not only does ScotRail meant to comply with the NRCOC (or whatever it is called now), but have a duty of care to passengers, some of whom may have hidden disabilities and not known to the operator. Even by running trains to/from Edinburgh Park or Gateway on a shuttle service to other destinations and allowing passengers to use the Tram would've been easier. I'm sure Edinburgh Trams would convey passengers to these stations and claim it back from the TOC?

 

[JN114]

Right, and has has been mentioned a few times - have ScotRail actually refused to reimburse people; or is that just a supposition?

 

[Berliner]

During the first lockdown I was in the Republic of Ireland and needed to leave the country or be stranded. Irish Rail couldn't operate the last Enterprise service up to Belfast Lanyon Place due to a problem with the signalling at the border, and as there were only a couple of us travelling, the guard went to the ticket office, took €150 out of it, handed it to me and said to get a taxi for us all and post the receipt back to CIÉ. I did what he said and we trundled up the N1, M1 and A1 to Belfast with a very happy taxi driver, and obtained a receipt from him. Posted this back to CIÉ at Heuston Station with a note explaining what it was for. A few days later I got a letter back from them with a cheque for €150, plus the price of the 1stPlus fare, a €60 gesture of goodwill and a €100 Leap card for the inconvenience. I called the number on the letter and explained that the guard had taken the cash from the ticket office and they said to keep the money as it was their mistake.

The original time it took for the guard to arrange the cash from the train being cancelled was about ten minutes. No call to IÉ control, but a brief conversation with somebody in the ticket office.

I know that ScotRail were unable to provide taxis or replacement buses the other night because of other issues, but surely they must have been able to do something, rather than palm passengers off with "we cannot help any further"? Not only does ScotRail meant to comply with the NRCOC (or whatever it is called now), but have a duty of care to passengers, some of whom may have hidden disabilities and not known to the operator. Even by running trains to/from Edinburgh Park or Gateway on a shuttle service to other destinations and allowing passengers to use the Tram would've been easier. I'm sure Edinburgh Trams would convey passengers to these stations and claim it back from the TOC?

I think the difference here is only a few of you were traveling and one train was cancelled. Scotrail had multiple trains cancelled with hundreds of people affected. It would have taken them 10 minutes to sort out a taxi for a handful of folk who were on one empty train, the situations aren't really that comparable.

I really think some people here are refusing to accept that sometimes there is nothing a company can do. Contract or no contract, every now and again it becomes impossible to honour it. A lot of assumption is being made that staff are lazy or couldn't be bothered to try and find a solution for hundreds of people late at night. Quite why, I don't know. I've yet to see any report of scotrail actually refusing to refund tickets or other transport costs too, so quite what the issue is I don't know.

 

[Class 170101]

If I were a Tory (which I most definitely am not), I'd look at that and think - it's time for mass restructuring and redundancies to make staff fearful for their jobs.

Not sure from which Management text book that came out of but staff fearful for their jobs don't perform at their best. Fear and threats will only get you so far.

 

[SteveM70]

I really think some people here are refusing to accept that sometimes there is nothing a company can do

Is it not the case that in this instance, because Scotrail couldn’t do everything, they did nothing?

I refuse to believe there was literally nothing that could’ve been done

 

[Robertj21a]

Is it not the case that in this instance, because Scotrail couldn’t do everything, they did nothing?

I refuse to believe there was literally nothing that could’ve been done

You can always argue that somebody else could do something, even if small. On the other hand, for a big company, with massive convoluted problems, it may well be far better to just have a clear cut off point. At least everybody involved then knows that nothing changed after the deadline.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Is it not the case that in this instance, because Scotrail couldn’t do everything, they did nothing?

I refuse to believe there was literally nothing that could’ve been done

I'm confused. The very first post reported that:

"UPDATE: Despite our best efforts, we've not been able to secure more replacement buses this evening. There may not be space for you to board, given physical distancing requirements."

Sounds like quite a lot was done.

It has become obvious that electric trains were stranded all over the place (with their crews similarly stranded) and neither Edinburgh Park nor Edinburgh Gateway are suitable for turning back trains in signalling terms as I understand it.

 

[XAM2175]

Sounds like quite a lot was done.

We're still waiting for somebody to actually say that it wasn't - so far the whole thread is based entirely on the wording of a single tweet.

 

[Happilyretired]

It has become obvious that electric trains were stranded all over the place (with their crews similarly stranded) and neither Edinburgh Park nor Edinburgh Gateway are suitable for turning back trains in signalling terms as I understand it.

Yes, turnbacks are Dalmeny on Fife lines and Linlithgow on the E&G. Both of those stations are served by buses from central Edinburgh

It can at times be very difficult to obtain taxis for ScotRail at short notice in Edinburgh. Likewise hotel accommodation

 

[Class 170101]

It has become obvious that electric trains were stranded all over the place (with their crews similarly stranded) and neither Edinburgh Park nor Edinburgh Gateway are suitable for turning back trains in signalling terms as I understand it.

Depending on the isolation requirements surely just de-train and run ECS via Haymarket Depot.

 

[Master29]

Reimbursement of *reasonable* costs of alternative arrangements would indeed be due, AIUI (as long as evidence is kept in the form of unused train tickets, taxi receipts etc.), but that still requires the passenger to be able to front the cost of alternative transport in the first place.

If people are physically unable to make these arrangements for themselves because insufficient taxis are available, I’m not sure what the railway can be expected to. It cannot magic buses and taxis out of nowhere at the drop of a hat, late on a Friday evening, to accommodate potentially thousands of stranded passengers.

Great. What about vulnerable passengers?

 

[Berliner]

Great. What about vulnerable passengers?

Presumably, they would have been known about (anyone who had assistance booked for example) or they made themselves known to staff who could then have ensured they got priority on any buses or taxis that was organised. Many passengers who are classed as vulnerable are also perfectly capable of making their own arrangements in these situations and sending in a receipt for reimbursement.

 

[Master29]

Presumably, they would have been known about (anyone who had assistance booked for example) or they made themselves known to staff who could then have ensured they got priority on any buses or taxis that was organised. Many passengers who are classed as vulnerable are also perfectly capable of making their own arrangements in these situations and sending in a receipt for reimbursement.

In theory possibly but practically not so clear. It was the reply I was giving to a rather one sided post.

 

[43066]

In theory possibly but practically not so clear. It was the reply I was giving to a rather one sided post.

That post was mine.

I was discussing TOCs being unable to deal with literally thousands of passengers, unable to travel at short notice due to an infrastructure failure. That might include vulnerable passengers.

But (and this is a point I’ve debated with you before), passengers who are unable to make alternative arrangements under their own steam, so to speak, should always be travelling with competent chaperones, just as we don’t allow young children to travel unaccompanied on the railway.

 

[Master29]

That post was mine.

I was discussing TOCs being unable to deal with literally thousands of passengers, unable to travel at short notice due to an infrastructure failure. That might include vulnerable passengers.

But (and this is a point I’ve debated with you before), passengers who are unable to make alternative arrangements under their own steam, so to speak, should always be travelling with competent chaperones, just as we don’t allow young children to travel unaccompanied on the railway.

I agree with all of this but sometimes there may be variables involved which can sometimes affect people in different ways. Someone vulnerable may be fine to travel in a fairly normal situation but something like this may throw them and they may not always be able to communicate it. I have worked with this level of disability and have seen how unforeseen events can cause problems. Some people are terrified to ask for assistance.

 

[al78]

That post was mine.

I was discussing TOCs being unable to deal with literally thousands of passengers, unable to travel at short notice due to an infrastructure failure. That might include vulnerable passengers.

But (and this is a point I’ve debated with you before), passengers who are unable to make alternative arrangements under their own steam, so to speak, should always be travelling with competent chaperones, just as we don’t allow young children to travel unaccompanied on the railway.

I can accept that up to a point, but there is ultimately a limit to what someone can do, and should be expected to do as far as backup is concerned. If a major rail route is shut down stranding hundreds of people, if the railway cannot arrange alternative transport because there aren't enough taxis/buses, then the stranded passengers aren't all going to be able to source taxis/buses for the same reason. If they can find overnight accommodation that is fine, but what if they don't have friends/relatives in the region they can beg space on a sofa and the hotels are rammed full or the only ones with space are out of their affordability? If we have to have a friend or relative on standby anytime we want to make a long rail journey just because there is a small chance everything might go tits up, then it makes the railway virtually unusable for anyone unable to arrange such extreme pre-emptive countermeasures. Can you give a list of things going wrong that any rail passenger should be able to counter themselves? What is the minimum probability of occurance of a bad event that is reasonable to expect someone to think about dealing with. There is advocating personal responsibility, then there is victim blaming, this thread seems to be pushing towards the latter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is the present legal position on social distancing in Scotland? Could ScotRail be in a position where they would not be able to arrange a shared taxi for 4 passengers, say, but if those 4 passengers individually elected to take the risk and arranged it themselves (and sent ScotRail the bill later on) that could then happen?

To add one more, ScotRail doesn't have a mechanism to book an Uber for a passenger, but they can book one themselves easily enough. So that's a big chunk of "taxis" that the TOC can't really arrange but the passenger can. Uber is I believe fairly big in Edinburgh.

 

[snookertam]

What is the present legal position on social distancing in Scotland? Could ScotRail be in a position where they would not be able to arrange a shared taxi for 4 passengers, say, but if those 4 passengers individually elected to take the risk and arranged it themselves (and sent ScotRail the bill later on) that could then happen?

To add one more, ScotRail doesn't have a mechanism to book an Uber for a passenger, but they can book one themselves easily enough. So that's a big chunk of "taxis" that the TOC can't really arrange but the passenger can. Uber is I believe fairly big in Edinburgh.

Social distancing is still in place in Scotland and is likely to be for some time, even after our supposed 'freedom day' on 9th August where I believe 1 metre distancing (along with mask wearing) will still be expected.

 

[Davester50]

What gets me is there was no mention of keeping a receipt and submitting a claim for costs incurred in the whole tweet thread.
While it appears that in further reply tweets to individuals that they would indeed pay for additional costs, these are hidden away.
Many companies are happy to not overly publicise they will reimburse, saving themselves some of the financial cost from those who are unaware. I've had this on flights in the early days of EC261/2004.

At what cost this causes to reputation is another issue.

 

[Berliner]

What gets me is there was no mention of keeping a receipt and submitting a claim for costs incurred in the whole tweet thread.
While it appears that in further reply tweets to individuals that they would indeed pay for additional costs, these are hidden away.
Many companies are happy to not overly publicise they will reimburse, saving themselves some of the financial cost from those who are unaware. I've had this on flights in the early days of EC261/2004.

At what cost this causes to reputation is another issue.

In my experience a lot of people (perhaps most) don't even bother to claim things back when they are fully entitled to do so, or even encouraged to do so, especially in aviation. I have been involved in airline claims for years and could more often than not count on 2 hands how many people would send in receipts for expenses when a flight of around 200 people was cancelled or delayed etc. You'd never heard from the vast majority of people who just wrote it off. Same with a bag claim..people would make a fuss at the time and then you'd never hear from them again, even when they had your direct email/phone number and were given the paperwork on how to make claims.


My point is the TOC or any company does not need to spell it out for people, especially on twitter where they are limited for space. Those who are minded to claim will do so. Those who have no intention to claim will brush it all off, even with encouragement. It's hardly unknown that people can claim these things back from companies. Anyone who looks at a TOC website will see sections on how to claim costs back too. It's not a secret.

 

[Davester50]

In my experience a lot of people (perhaps most) don't even bother to claim things back when they are fully entitled to do so, or even encouraged to do so, especially in aviation. I have been involved in airline claims for years and could more often than not count on 2 hands how many people would send in receipts for expenses when a flight of around 200 people was cancelled or delayed etc. You'd never heard from the vast majority of people who just wrote it off. Same with a bag claim..people would make a fuss at the time and then you'd never hear from them again, even when they had your direct email/phone number and were given the paperwork on how to make claims.


My point is the TOC or any company does not need to spell it out for people, especially on twitter where they are limited for space. Those who are minded to claim will do so. Those who have no intention to claim will brush it all off, even with encouragement. It's hardly unknown that people can claim these things back from companies. Anyone who looks at a TOC website will see sections on how to claim costs back too. It's not a secret.

The lack of space on Twitter is a red herring. Multi thread posts are common and are shown fully in the original thread.

I disagree with the rest, as I’d hope customer service would still exist. You see it differently.

 

[Berliner]

The lack of space on Twitter is a red herring. Multi thread posts are common and are shown fully in the original thread.

I disagree with the rest, as I’d hope customer service would still exist. You see it differently.

I guess I do see it differently. I consider a dedicated TOC website full of information about how to claim money back as well as full details of refund policies to be perfectly viable customer service, far more so than a tweet. Station staff will know the claim back procedure, station leaflets about this precise topic are in abundance at any station I've been to across the UK in recent times too.

However, my other point still stands. In my experience, granted not on rail, most people don't care and won't bother to claim money back, even if they are told precisely how to. But the information is most definitely out there for all to see if they want to.

 

[TUC]

If taxis were available for people to hire when 'making their own arrangements' presumably these were equally available for Scotrail to hire on passengers' behalf?

 

[Berliner]

If taxis were available for people to hire when 'making their own arrangements' presumably these were equally available for Scotrail to hire on passengers' behalf?

Not necessarily. A taxi firm may be able and willing to send out a taxi to a fare paying passenger who pays up right away and then makes the taxi available again for another journey. They may not, however, have hundreds sitting about for a corporate lease that may take ages to send the money and take up a chunk of their fleet for potentially hours, reducing thier chances of carrying more passengers for higher revenue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If taxis were available for people to hire when 'making their own arrangements' presumably these were equally available for Scotrail to hire on passengers' behalf?

ScotRail would not have a means of booking Ubers for passengers and Edinburgh has lots of these.

 

[Falcon1200]

I have witnessed Scotrail bending over backwards to assist stranded passengers, including when the railway was not even at fault, eg when a minor missed their stop or train through their own actions. The issue at Edinburgh was simply the huge number of people involved