Scotrail future plans for network enhancements

[waverley47]

Look forward to seeing how that develops ! One fairly simple idea, which I am slightly surprised has never been considered, is realigning the current sharp curve between Carstairs South and East Junctions onto the original much straighter route (the 'Queen's Curve).

This has been done to death in many, many threads on here. NR looked at it and decided it wasn't worth it.

The landowner wanted too much money, there isn't enough space for a high speed turnout between the original junction and the bridge, the embankment isn't entirely sound and is missing a few pieces, ect....

It's something which may happen in the future, but is unlikely in the medium term.

 

[156478]

I'm not sure why Barrhead/Kilmarnock needs (more) redoubling for electrification ? The current infrastructure is perfectly adequate (as long as Lugton SB is switched in !) for a half-hourly service, would electric trains generate a need for a more intensive service ?

The amount of block failures at Lugton and the associated obsolescence of using Absolute Block Signalling says to me the current infrastructure is not adequate…..

It also only takes one train to be late between Barrhead and Kilmarnock on the single line sections to absolutely stuff up the timetable for hours afterwards.

on a good day- yes it’s barely adequate, on bad days it’s several hours of sub threshold delays that fan out onto the interworked services to East Kilbride, across to Girvan and Stranraer and down to Carlisle.

 

[Highlandspring]

The amount of block failures at Lugton and the associated obsolescence of using Absolute Block Signalling says to me the current infrastructure is not adequate…..

Lugton isn’t Absolute Block, it’s TCB and ScR Tokenless.

 

[Backroom_boy]

Look forward to seeing how that develops ! One fairly simple idea, which I am slightly surprised has never been considered, is realigning the current sharp curve between Carstairs South and East Junctions onto the original much straighter route (the 'Queen's Curve).

Is there a thread on the WCML North of HS2 phase 2?

 

[Brissle Girl]

The landowner wanted too much money,

Isn’t there where compulsory purchase orders are effective (accepting there is a cost to go through that process)?

 

[HS2isgood]

When the WCML was closed in 2015 due to the storm damage at Lamington Viaduct, Virgin Trains ran a shuttle service between Carlisle and Glasgow Central via Kilmarnock. In order to path these services, Scotrail had to cancel their stopping services between Kilmarnock and Barrhead. Some of the Virgin Trains services called additionally at Kilmarnock. TPE were unable to run their services to Glasgow.

On Tuesday, 20th February 2018, I attended a talk given by John Yellowlees to a meeting of Pollokshields Heritage.


See Pollokshields Heritage Previous Lectures

John told us that Network Rail anticipate a long blockade of the WCML when they upgrade it for HS2 services and this is why they were (at that time) considering upgrade and electrification of the G&SW / Glasgow Barrhead and Kilmarnock Railway for diversion of freight and passenger services.

Is it really needed? When the WCML is closed, it would be possible to remove one of the Glasgow-Edinburgh SR services and run LNER to Glasgow Queen Street via Falkirk High.

 

[XAM2175]

Isn’t there where compulsory purchase orders are effective (accepting there is a cost to go through that process)?

There were other significant difficulties with the project that made it infeasible regardless of actually acquiring the land. You should be able to find one or two of the threads on it recently without too much bother.

 

[Falcon1200]

It also only takes one train to be late between Barrhead and Kilmarnock on the single line sections to absolutely stuff up the timetable for hours afterwards.
on a good day- yes it’s barely adequate, on bad days it’s several hours of sub threshold delays that fan out onto the interworked services to East Kilbride, across to Girvan and Stranraer and down to Carlisle.

I agree absolutely regarding the delay and disruption potential of single lines (in general), although the partial redoubling, between Lugton and Lochridge Jc, has been a huge benefit to the GB&K. Kilmaurs station will be a problem if full redoubling is contemplated, I wonder whether just doing Barrhead/Lugton would be sufficient for an enhanced service ? Clearly the signalling would require upgrading as well (I know only too well the effect of failures having been responsible for Modified Working on the route !)

 

[route101]

Is it really needed? When the WCML is closed, it would be possible to remove one of the Glasgow-Edinburgh SR services and run LNER to Glasgow Queen Street via Falkirk High.

Platforms are too short for LNER 800s at Glasgow Queen St, unless its a 5 car.

 

[gingertom]

Platforms are too short for LNER 800s at Glasgow Queen St, unless its a 5 car.

well there's the Shotts route available now, it wasn't wired at the time of the Lamington incident. Assumes of course the driver signs the route.

 

[waverley47]

Is it really needed? When the WCML is closed, it would be possible to remove one of the Glasgow-Edinburgh SR services and run LNER to Glasgow Queen Street via Falkirk High

Unlikely to happen as is, queen street is basically ScotRail's territory going forward. There isn't the route knowledge, and as mentioned there isn't the space for a ten car.

Edinburgh has a minimum of 12tph to Glasgow via four different routes during normal times, and it's unlikely to be in anyone's benefit to switch one of those over to LNER during times of disruption on the northern WCML.

Even more importantly, 8 cars of 23m offers significantly more capacity than a five car 80x, so just turning around at Waverley and turfing everyone out onto scotrail is likely to be easier.

The scotrail network is moving significantly towards the often touted takt timetable advocated for in here, with regular service intervals on all routes. Messing that up for the benefit of direct kings cross to Glasgow trains once in a blue moon just isn't worth it.

 

[Falcon1200]

No need for LNER to run to Queen St, or Central via Shotts, given that they already have route clearance and Traincrew knowledge to Central via Carstairs, albeit for a token service only. However they did not run additional trains to Glasgow during Lamington, nor did I expect them to then nor would in future, given that it would leave their own core service short of stock and crews, and multiple services are available between Edinburgh and Glasgow via several routes.

 

[Brissle Girl]

There were other significant difficulties with the project that made it infeasible regardless of actually acquiring the land. You should be able to find one or two of the threads on it recently without too much bother.

Sure, I get that. I was just picking up on that particular point as there are procedures in place to stop landowners taking advantage of the proposal by demanding unreasonable sums for the land needed.

 

[59CosG95]

well there's the Shotts route available now, it wasn't wired at the time of the Lamington incident. Assumes of course the driver signs the route.

That's unlikely to occur until the new feeder at Currie/Curriehill gets added to the network. Shotts is end-fed from the WCML (Motherwell-ish area?) and the ECML (Portobello). Currie(hill) will take some of the strain off both.

 

[gingertom]

That's unlikely to occur until the new feeder at Currie/Curriehill gets added to the network. Shotts is end-fed from the WCML (Motherwell-ish area?) and the ECML (Portobello). Currie(hill) will take some of the strain off both.

that hadn't occurred to me but if there's not enough juice then an 800 can always fire up the diesels. Not ideal on a number of fronts.

 

[alf]

Isn’t there where compulsory purchase orders are effective (accepting there is a cost to go through that process)

The ironically named (since it is straight) out of use “queens curve” south to east just below Carstairs is such an obvious replacement for the dreadful 15 mpg curve from the wcml towards Edinburgh that the alleged obstacles should be overcome.

Bridges are two a penny on new roads, so surely a 70/60 mph rail chord to Edinburgh from the wcml justifies a new rail bridge over the Clyde, one alleged obstacle.

Bristle Girl’s suggestion above of a CPO being effective should not be ridiculed. All that is needed is the THREAT of a compulsory order for rough grazing land of no other value.
The threat, a real one, would be enough to bring the landowner back to earth.

Removing Edinburgh bound trains from the wcml at 70 mph instead of a 15 mph crawl would clear the junction far more quickly & increase wcml capacity...important when HS2 airline replacement trains are using the WCML.

 

[waverley47]

The ironically named (since it is straight) out of use “queens curve” south to east just below Carstairs is such an obvious replacement for the dreadful 15 mpg curve from the wcml towards Edinburgh that the alleged obstacles should be overcome.

Bridges are two a penny on new roads, so surely a 70/60 mph rail chord to Edinburgh from the wcml justifies a new rail bridge over the Clyde, one alleged obstacle.

Bristle Girl’s suggestion above of a CPO being effective should not be ridiculed. All that is needed is the THREAT of a compulsory order for rough grazing land of no other value.
The threat, a real one, would be enough to bring the landowner back to earth.

Removing Edinburgh bound trains from the wcml at 70 mph instead of a 15 mph crawl would clear the junction far more quickly & increase wcml capacity...important when HS2 airline replacement trains are using the WCML.

These are all very good points. And the curve should be brought into use.

Bottom line, if you want a high speed turnout, that requires a lot of space, and in turn that would need a new bridge across the clyde. Even that isn't ideal, in a perfect world you'd want the junction to be about where the bridge is, but that would require rebuilding a wider bridge so isn't ever going to happen.

A new bridge isn't cheap, across the clyde on a floodplain is pretty up there in terms of costs.

It doesn't benefit ScotRail to invest, as no scotrail services run that way, so less pressure on ScotGov. Doesn't benefit Westminster really because it's a relatively provincial junction in not England, and it works fine as is.

It might happen but personally I reckon if it does it will come out of the HS2 budget. No-one wants to pay for it if HS2 will come and pay for it in a while anyway, and in all honesty it's not particularly important when that much money can buy the Scottish government X miles of wires, or a new feeder station ect.

It's all good advocating for its and noone here will disagree with you as to the benefits, but it's simply not a priority.

 

[gingertom]

The ironically named (since it is straight) out of use “queens curve” south to east just below Carstairs is such an obvious replacement for the dreadful 15 mpg curve from the wcml towards Edinburgh that the alleged obstacles should be overcome.

Bridges are two a penny on new roads, so surely a 70/60 mph rail chord to Edinburgh from the wcml justifies a new rail bridge over the Clyde, one alleged obstacle.

Bristle Girl’s suggestion above of a CPO being effective should not be ridiculed. All that is needed is the THREAT of a compulsory order for rough grazing land of no other value.
The threat, a real one, would be enough to bring the landowner back to earth.

Removing Edinburgh bound trains from the wcml at 70 mph instead of a 15 mph crawl would clear the junction far more quickly & increase wcml capacity...important when HS2 airline replacement trains are using the WCML.

I note from the OS mapping of the area there are old railway workings in the vicinity right where such a chord would go. Has that land been sold on?

 

[D6130]

Bottom line, if you want a high speed turnout, that requires a lot of space, and in turn that would need a new bridge across the clyde. Even that isn't ideal, in a perfect world you'd want the junction to be about where the bridge is, but that would require rebuilding a wider bridge so isn't ever going to happen.

Even if the new turnout were to be only 30-40 mph , it would be at least a hundred per cent better than what is there now. Some sections of the embankment would have to be rebuilt, possibly all of it, and a new underbridge would be needed for livestock and farm access - plus a sewage pipe would require re-routeing - but, in the grand scheme of things, it would not be a massive job. Roll-on HS2! Does anyone know why and when the "curve" closed in the first place? Presumably it would have been used pre-WW2 by LMS expresses with Edinburgh and Glasgow portions joining/dividing at Symington.

 

[waverley47]

Even if the new turnout were to be only 30-40 mph , it would be at least a hundred per cent better than what is there now. Some sections of the embankment would have to be rebuilt, possibly all of it, and a new underbridge would be needed for livestock and farm access - plus a sewage pipe would require re-routeing - but, in the grand scheme of things, it would not be a massive job. Roll-on HS2! Does anyone know why and when the "curve" closed in the first place? Presumably it would have been used pre-WW2 by LMS expresses with Edinburgh and Glasgow portions joining/dividing at Symington.

If you're going to rebuild the curve, you wouldn't bear the expense of doing it for a 40mph turnout.

I note from the OS mapping of the area there are old railway workings in the vicinity right where such a chord would go. Has that land been sold on?

The line closed about the same time as the Dolphinton line opened, prior to 1900. Various maps surveyed between 1896 and 1899 have the railway in various states of usability. (See the NLS website for more details)

It was built over a century ago, it has been left abandoned since and quite large parts have been bulldozed for various reasons. You'd probably need to rebuild the whole embankment.

Edit: railscot seems to think the line was abandoned in 1867

 

[D6130]

The line closed about the same time as the Dolphinton line opened, prior to 1900. Various maps surveyed between 1896 and 1899 have the railway in various states of usability. (See the NLS website for more details)

Thanks for that....very interesting.

 

[Falcon1200]

That's unlikely to occur until the new feeder at Currie/Curriehill gets added to the network. Shotts is end-fed from the WCML (Motherwell-ish area?) and the ECML (Portobello). Currie(hill) will take some of the strain off both.

that hadn't occurred to me but if there's not enough juice then an 800 can always fire up the diesels. Not ideal on a number of fronts.

As I mentioned before, why would LNER have any need to run via Shotts when their trains and Crews are already fully passed to Glasgow via Carstairs ?

 

[Senex]

If you're going to rebuild the curve, you wouldn't bear the expense of doing it for a 40mph turnout.



The line closed about the same time as the Dolphinton line opened, prior to 1900. Various maps surveyed between 1896 and 1899 have the railway in various states of usability. (See the NLS website for more details)

It was built over a century ago, it has been left abandoned since and quite large parts have been bulldozed for various reasons. You'd probably need to rebuild the whole embankment.

Edit: railscot seems to think the line was abandoned in 1867

It was the original line to Edinburgh, specified in the Act, which is why once it had turned out at Float Jn it took a dead straight line to Lampits Jn (where the curve from Carstairs station came in) and on towards Cobbinshaw. Presumably because of the way traffic and services developed, it never really got used and fell out of use. It was then restored for traffic for the queen's train to use it in the 1860s and then indeed ceased to be used as a through route in 1867. It's interesting to note that there was clearly no through route from the south towards Edinburgh when the Caledonian line was mileposted: instead of going round either the first or the second curve towards Edinburgh the mileposts reverse at Carstairs Station Jn. (The other part of the route preparation done for Queen Victoria's train involved restoring the Haymarket link in Edinburgh to use as a through line.)

 

[Bald Rick]

Removing Edinburgh bound trains from the wcml at 70 mph instead of a 15 mph crawl would clear the junction far more quickly

Correct.

& increase wcml capacity

How?

 

[Altnabreac]

Correct.



How?

Unless I very much misremember the limiting capacity of WCML between Carlisle and Carstairs is driven much more by freight capacity over Beattock well before any junction capacity issues at Carstairs come into play.

 

[route101]

that hadn't occurred to me but if there's not enough juice then an 800 can always fire up the diesels. Not ideal on a number of fronts.

Usually an 801 on the Glasgow service so would need wires.

 

[alangla]

Shotts is end-fed from the WCML (Motherwell-ish area?)

IIRC it’s the delightfully named Gowkthrapple feeder in Wishaw. Not so delightful an area mind…

 

[Class 170101]

Removing Edinburgh bound trains from the wcml at 70 mph instead of a 15 mph crawl would clear the junction far more quickly & increase wcml capacity...important when HS2 airline replacement trains are using the WCML.

How?

If the junction was considered in isolation increasing the speed from 15mph would give increased capacity but as @Altnabreac says below things can't be considered in isolation.

Unless I very much misremember the limiting capacity of WCML between Carlisle and Carstairs is driven much more by freight capacity over Beattock well before any junction capacity issues at Carstairs come into play.

 

[waverley47]

Unless I very much misremember the limiting capacity of WCML between Carlisle and Carstairs is driven much more by freight capacity over Beattock well before any junction capacity issues at Carstairs come into play.

Indeed. Capacity constraints in order of importance on the northern WCML;

(Some of these have caveats, which I shall explain. While I'm well aware many on here here have heard all this before, let's go back through it)


1. Flat junctions at Rutherglen, Newton, Uddingston, Motherwell x2, Wishaw and Law Junction mean regulating any and all traffic north into Glasgow is a nightmare. It's incredibly difficult to get a free run in, and even the via Carstairs ScotRail services have pathing times of between 4 and 19 minutes added through this section. It's a nightmare

2. Haymarket corridor means paths into Edinburgh are fixed. No renegotiating without waiting for your slot at Haymarket. Anything coming from Carstairs usually has a timetabled wait of about five minutes here just to wait for its slot. It's all well and good speeding up the junction, but the trains will end up waiting anyway further along.

3. Paths south of Preston are fixed. Again, all you'd do is be waiting further south.

4. Capacity up Beattock is difficult at the best of times. Timetabling anything other than a container train hauled by electrics struggles to get up in a timely fashion. There was a rule for a very very long time of one train on the hill at once, essentially making it a 6 mile long single block. Thankfully that has gone now, but even so it's getting a bit crowded.


Carstairs isn't really a capacity constraint. Yes, it's slow and arduous on any side of the triangle at the moment, but it's really not a priority other than clearing the junction a bit faster to clean up the timetable. There aren't really any journey time reductions to be gained, so.why spend the money.

 

[Brissle Girl]

4. Capacity up Beattock is difficult at the best of times. Timetabling anything other than a container train hauled by electrics struggles to get up in a timely fashion. There was a rule for a very very long time of one train on the hill at once, essentially making it a 6 mile long single block. Thankfully that has gone now, but even so it's getting a bit crowded.

Makes you wonder why electric isn't mandated if it's that much of an issue. For existing services give operators 4 years notice if there is an issue around procurement of suitable locomotives. If it can be justified on capacity and environmental costs, and in doing so adds further capacity which then has the potential to further improve the environmental gain, it feels like a no-brainer.

And don't tell me it can't be done, because of existing rules etc, etc. The government owned railway can change the rules if it so wishes.