ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Blindtraveler]

I'm sure all the staff are doing a fantastic job but this is simply handing passengers to the bus and coach companies and also to motor car dealers and hirers on a plate surely? Full and standing ScotRail services or indeed any train service are not fun best of times but must be causing an awful lot of anxiety and bad temper at the moment when we are supposed to still be socially distancing. It's also a bit ironic when every station is playing continuous announcements about the need to keep your distance and other such precautions and then you'll get a hilariously overloaded 170 trying to tackle a busy intercity service I've nearly 4 hours duration ,

 

[47827]

Take it from me on the front line the 1046 Monday to Friday needs extra carriages. Saturday it's booked a 5 car which solves the issue but especially Mondays it could really use strengthened or the 0944 back

It's the train that replaced the Clansman effectively and was always a busy one during the tourist months. After the Clansman the equivalent departure ran with early pv mk2s and 37s for a couple of years followed by the school holidays of 1995 a RES 47 and 6 air con mk2s hired off Waterman Railways. Pairs of DMU's were the choice thereafter, but at this time of year the 0944 ex Inverness would be handy to take a bit of the pressure away. Sadly the reduced timetable looks to be a feature of the remainder of the year at least, if not longer.

 

[Blindtraveler]

And they can hardly blame reduced pandemic levels of passengers anymore because from what I've seen in recent weeks those numbers are clearly not reduced. Especially with everyone now staying at home for holidays. So what will the excuse be


value for money for the taxpayer again?
Hardly long-term value for money if there is passengers find other ways to travel now and don't return in the future because they like what they got when they found an alternative better than ScotRail quite frankly mediocre offerings on the Highland long-distance services

 

[Clansman]

Not too sure how much good the 5-car HSTs will be to any of the busiest services aclong the HML given a 5-car HST has less standard class capacity than a double 158. I guess it comes down to how many first class passengers there are going to be who otherwise would have been forced to be in standard on 158. First class is the fullest on Inverness services on 170s, so that's 18 passengers you're looking at in terms of freed up standard class seats on a 5-car HST.

Not too sure how good that will do, but here's hoping that all goes to plan.

 

[irish_rail]

A couple of photos of 43185 looking sad at Haymarket depot.

My god she looks better without those horrible modern light clusters. Almost looks like a scene from 1992.
RIP Great Western. Miss driving her

 

[CEN60]

It's the train that replaced the Clansman effectively and was always a busy one during the tourist months. After the Clansman the equivalent departure ran with early pv mk2s and 37s for a couple of years followed by the school holidays of 1995 a RES 47 and 6 air con mk2s hired off Waterman Railways. Pairs of DMU's were the choice thereafter, but at this time of year the 0944 ex Inverness would be handy to take a bit of the pressure away. Sadly the reduced timetable looks to be a feature of the remainder of the year at least, if not longer.

Travelled on the 14.50 Inv to GLQ on Tuesday - it could have done with more coaches also - 3 car 170 (no power or USB sockets either) As a side note - I struggle with Scotrail's policy of closing off the 1st class coach on the HST's - their argument is so their staff can sit thee if needed - so the guard may sit in there on his own! - Surely it would be safer all round to further space out passengers.

 

[ER158715]

It’s not always one member of staff. For example the 1102 out of Inverness can potentially have 3or 4 staff travelling PASS.

 

[CEN60]

It’s not always one member of staff. For example the 1102 out of Inverness can potentially have 3or 4 staff travelling PASS.

I accept that may be the case - I still cant quite understand why the whole 1st class carriage needs closed on an HST!

 

[ER158715]

Suppose it’s an easier to manage if no one is allowed to use it. Maybe the 5 coach extensions should be in traffic to help this situation.

 

[47827]

First class is rather socially distanced anyhow so it's a poor argument that an entire FO hst trailer is needed even for say 4 traincrew as each could take a whole table to themselves and be sufficiently far away from colleagues to tick the appropriate box and leave the other 10-12 seating bays of 2/4 free to paying passengers thus alleviating squashing together in standard as some will wish to upgrade. The unions clearly do still hold massive sway at times though. In practice many colleagues in most industries are now choosing to not distance as much anyway in practice as they enjoy/need social contact at work and the situation has moved forward in a positive direction (since March 2020 anyhow), so you may see 2 or 3 staff choosing to sit on the same table if all of them are comfortable doing so (the last point not technically relevant regarding rules in Scotland but it is ironic given the fuss unions would make on this subject).

 

[mcmad]

Of course its not a full FO but half first class half buffet and there is no still no first class tickets or upgrades being sold on Scotrail

 

[Speed43125]

It's definitely not a 'half buffet', the first class saloon dominates the length of the coach, its more an FO with a buffet grafted onto the end.

 

[fgwrich]

It's definitely not a 'half buffet', the first class saloon dominates the length of the coach, its more an FO with a buffet grafted onto the end.

I was thinking about this the other day, as I'm booked on a few I7C services next month and hopeful that the FC may be re-instated by then.

The buffet space probably takes up about as much as the FGW TRSMB's did (the toilet window + 1 window bay), however what presumably makes it difficult is the guards office grafted to it - that separates the Buffet space and the First Class saloon. Perhaps, 1 way to make it work could be to rotate the TGFB around so the Guard Office / currently closed buffet is next to the Power Car, and the FC saloon next to the TS?

 

[43096]

I was thinking about this the other day, as I'm booked on a few I7C services next month and hopeful that the FC may be re-instated by then.

The buffet space probably takes up about as much as the FGW TRSMB's did (the toilet window + 1 window bay), however what presumably makes it difficult is the guards office grafted to it - that separates the Buffet space and the First Class saloon. Perhaps, 1 way to make it work could be to rotate the TGFB around so the Guard Office / currently closed buffet is next to the Power Car, and the FC saloon next to the TS?

I think they’d be reluctant to do that as there’d be no passenger door next to the power car: the TGFBs have sliding doors at the seating end only. I suspect some sort of H&S riot would ensue…

 

[Emaharg]

TPE manage to offer a reduced first class offering on Class397, Class802 with some tape across the aisle. Having done 4 weeks of First Class Rovers since September, I know Scotrail could do better, in this regard.
Currently the HST offering is 3 carriages but the excuse for 1st Class being removed on the website is social distancing for customers. THe tail is wagging the dog a little here, especially as covid was once nearly eradicated in Scotland

 

[Falcon1200]

As a side note - I struggle with Scotrail's policy of closing off the 1st class coach on the HST's - their argument is so their staff can sit their if needed - so the guard may sit in there on his own! - Surely it would be safer all round to further space out passengers.

It is a bizarre policy; Even with 3 or 4 staff travelling pass, there would still be plenty of room for paying passengers. And how on earth does forcing passengers with First Class tickets to sit in the Standard Class accommodation assist with social distancing ?

 

[najaB]

And how on earth does forcing passengers with First Class tickets to sit in the Standard Class accommodation assist with social distancing ?

I thought there was no first class advertised on those trains?

 

[CEN60]

I thought there was no first class advertised on those trains?

There is currently no 1st class ticket available on the route according to Scotrail.

 

[Falcon1200]

I thought there was no first class advertised on those trains?

Fair enough, but there are people who would pay to travel First Class if it was available, and others with non operator- or train-specific First Class tickets, who now have to occupy seats in the increasingly-crowded Standard Class coaches !

 

[hexagon789]

3

It's definitely not a 'half buffet', the first class saloon dominates the length of the coach, its more an FO with a buffet grafted onto the end.

Indeed, 3/4 of the trailer car is First Class seating - six out of the eight window bays/36 seats. The red/yellow cantrail striping illustrates the split nicely:

 

[ld0595]

I think it'll be more difficult to justify closing off a full carriage when restrictions are further eased on 9th August. Likewise I hope catering returns then too.

 

[hexagon789]

I think it'll be more difficult to justify closing off a full carriage when restrictions are further eased on 9th August. Likewise I hope catering returns then too.

I understand neither is being contemplated until the ScotGov relax mask and distancing restrictions in Scotland; which I believe may are saying won't be until spring?

Might be codswallop, but it would not surprise me in the least if they were being that cautious, it pretty much ties in with how things have been developing.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I can understand their reluctance to reintroduce catering but not allowing anybody to sit in that carriage is is simply hypocritical now when trains are getting busy again NJ and and they're app and website and posters and station announcements and station staff and everything else are urging us to take precautions and keep a distance and then a train rocks up with a load of empty seats on it it meaning that people have to squash in two other more crowded areas and go against their own policy. I don't quite see why I'm surprised by this as the current management really don't have a clue but nonetheless

 

[Emaharg]

Scotrail have withdrawn First Class tickets from sale, however open First class tickets purchased from within England to Scottish destinations are still available.

So they are forcing 1st Class ticket holders into Standard accommodation in some instances, on the premise of social distancing.

The Class 385 has had its 1st Class declassified for use by standard class passengers.

I have travelled in Scotland on a First Class ticket myself (All line Rover) and had to sit in standard on HST, although recently I have been to Aberdeen on LNER or Cross Country because of this issue.

The Scotrail HST first class seated section is bigger than TPE Class 397 or TPE Class 802, both of which only have access from one end of carriage. Both of these still offer first class seats with a small section for staff.

 

[DB]

Scotrail have withdrawn First Class tickets from sale, however open First class tickets purchased from within England to Scottish destinations are still available. So they are forcing 1st Class ticket holders into Standard accommodation in some instances, on the premise of social distancing. The Class 385 has had its 1st Class declassified for use by standard class passengers. I have travelled in Scotland on a First Class ticket myself (All line Rover) and had to sit in standard on HST, although recently I have been to Aberdeen on LNER or Cross Country because of this issue. The Scotrail HST first class seated section is bigger than TPE Class 397 or TPE Class 802, both of which only have access from one end of carriage. Both of these still offer first class seats with a small section for staff.

There really is no need for dedicated seats for staff - most TOCs don't have them now (it was always patchy on Northern anyway). This seems to be yet another case of Scotland having to be different to England just for the sake of it (Wales often has similar tactics).

 

[najaB]

This seems to be yet another case of Scotland having to be different to England just for the sake of it (Wales often has similar tactics).

Or, alternatively, just the natural and expected situation where different people have looked at the same evidence and reached different conclusions.

 

[DB]

Or, alternatively, just the natural and expected situation where different people have looked at the same evidence and reached different conclusions.

Remarkable that politicians such as Sturgeon, Drakeford, Starmer all reach different conclusions to Johnson when they think it's in their interests - and it all follows on from that.

The railways in many cases seem to have lost sight of the fact that they are supposed to be a public service. Extreme measures such as locking out a whole coach can in no way be justified by any actual hard evidence. No doubt if this leads to a long-term reduction in railway use, and redundancies, it will come as a massive shock to the people who are instituting these measures: we've already seen that airline's aren't immune, but the railways still seem to think that they are.

 

[najaB]

Remarkable that politicians such as Sturgeon, Drakeford, Starmer all reach different conclusions to Johnson when they think it's in their interests - and it all follows on from that.

Alternatively, it's remarkable that Johnson reaches a different conclusion to Sturgeon, Drakeford, Starmer, et. al. when he thinks it is in his interest.

 

[DB]

Alternatively, it's remarkable that Johnson reaches a different conclusion to Sturgeon, Drakeford, Starmer, et. al. when he thinks it is in his interest.

It's usully Johnson who makes the decisions first, then the others all look for ways to be different.

Not that I'm any fan of Johnson - but at the moment he's being less unreasonable than the others. And throughout the past 18 months we have seen virtually all politicians doing what they think is in their own interests.

 

[Blindtraveler]

And as I say given that sturgeon is trying to look better than anybody else or this is how it comes across to me and others you would think that providing as much socially distant seated capacity on Scotland's trains especially those that are travelling some distance and do not have opening Windows there for relying on what are in the case of the HST somewhat more elderly mechanical ventilation systems than the likes of LNER cross-country TransPennine or Avanti fleet or indeed even Scotrail new stock principally the 170 and 385 fleets would be a top priority rather than providing a luxury place for staff to sit


Anyhow I'm conscious of this going off topic so I'll say no more although someone up thread made a valid point about first class tickets from other destinations out with