ScotRail Industrial Relations issues (including conductor strike action)

[320320]

Do you have real examples of employers running roughshod over their staff, or are you just ranting ?
Perhaps you're somebody who believes they should get everything they want, regardless of any justification?

Did you miss British Gas sacking hundreds of engineers in April because they had the audacity to refuse to be bullied into signing new contracts with inferior terms and conditions?

 

[Robertj21a]

Did you miss British Gas sacking hundreds of engineers in April because they had the audacity to refuse to be bullied into signing new contracts with inferior terms and conditions?

No, I saw that. Your interpretation of events is somewhat different to mine.

 

[320320]

No, I saw that. Your interpretation of events is somewhat different to mine.

British Gas sacked 500 engineers because they refused to sign new contracts on inferior terms.

What exactly is it you think happened there?

 

[Watershed]

Some hgv companies are now putting up pay . Suggests that they could of afforded to and just didn't , because they chose not too.

They could only "afford" to do so because there is a general shortage of HGV drivers, meaning that virtually all haulage companies will be increasing what they're charging their customers.

If they unilaterally decided to increase pay to be significantly higher than the market average, they would go out of business pretty sharpish.

Of course the rail industry is completely detached from the realities of a competitive market economy, which is what leads to some of the perverse incentives and surprising outcomes you see.

 

[Christmas]

British Gas sacked 500 engineers because they refused to sign new contracts on inferior terms.

What exactly is it you think happened there?

I didn't expect a clearly anti-trade union, self confessed railway 'outsider' to agree with you or any of the staff currently in dispute or negotiations with ScotRail.

I've read similar views countless times on this forum from desperados who, try as they might, just don't have what it takes to get a start on the railway. Usually a disgruntled and deeply envious bus driver, trucker or van driver, working all hours because they have no choice.

They're more to be pitied than anything else really.

 

[the sniper]

Of course the rail industry is completely detached from the realities of a competitive market economy, which is what leads to some of the perverse incentives and surprising outcomes you see.

The airline industry, like various others, seems to do 'perverse incentives' when needs be. I don't think the airlines can be described as 'completely detached from the realities of a competitive market economy'. Maybe pilots just deserve better.

 

[SuperNova]

The airline industry, like various others, seems to do 'perverse incentives' when needs be. I don't think the airlines can be described as 'completely detached from the realities of a competitive market economy'. Maybe pilots just deserve better.

Bar Pilots, of which there was pre-pandemic an ever growing shortage of, the incentives are really negligible. Plenty of ex cabin-crew and airline staff have been on the railway for years and more have come over due to Covid. It's been quite refreshing really.

Reality is, rail is going to have to tighten it's belt. Wage rises that we've seen in the past two decades will be no more and voluntary redundancies are coming. Strike action won't change that.

 

[Goldfish62]

You should feel insulted by the way bus drivers are treated, it's a disgrace.

Thousands of whom are represented by the RMT...

 

[Watershed]

The airline industry, like various others, seems to do 'perverse incentives' when needs be. I don't think the airlines can be described as 'completely detached from the realities of a competitive market economy'. Maybe pilots just deserve better.

During the pandemic, a substantial proportion of pilots and other airline employeees were furloughed, and some have been made redundant. Those who kept their jobs often had to accept a salary cut, and very few will have received any allowances, overtime etc.

AFAIK no franchised train drivers have been furloughed, let alone been made redundant. None have faced a reduction in salary, albeit some will have earned less due to a reduction in overtime.

The contrast could hardly be starker. That is the difference that exposure to the market economy makes.

I'm by no means saying that either is inherently right or wrong. But the railway has undoubtedly been sheltered from the effects of the pandemic, and it seems that politicians (at least in Scotland) are no longer prepared to let that continue.

 

[notadriver]

During the pandemic, a substantial proportion of pilots and other airline employeees were furloughed, and some have been made redundant. Those who kept their jobs often had to accept a salary cut, and very few will have received any allowances, overtime etc.

AFAIK no franchised train drivers have been furloughed, let alone been made redundant. None have faced a reduction in salary, albeit some will have earned less due to a reduction in overtime.

The contrast could hardly be starker. That is the difference that exposure to the market economy makes.

Grand central and hull trains drivers were furloughed.

 

[Watershed]

Grand central and hull trains drivers were furloughed.

Yes, so they're not franchised drivers.

 

[24Grange]

I do sometimes wonder how driver Stan and his conductor Jack would get on with their bus in "On the Buses" in todays market driven circumstances ( Jack being the trade union rep and all.0

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes, so they're not franchised drivers.

And I'd bet, given their time again, there's probably more than a few Treasury mandarin's who would change their tune and tell the TOCs to furlough their staff wholesale rather than support the entire operation in the way they did in 2020...

Now this is Scotland not England or Wales so it's not the UK Treasury who are are directly on the hook for what's going on with ScotRail but I doubt their Scottish equivalents are in any more positive mood than their Westminster colleagues.

 

[Goldfish62]

And I'd bet, given their time again, there's probably more than a few Treasury mandarin's who would change their tune and tell the TOCs to furlough their staff wholesale rather than support the entire operation in the way they did in 2020...

Now this is Scotland not England or Wales so it's not the UK Treasury who are are directly on the hook for what's going on with ScotRail but I doubt their Scottish equivalents are in any more positive mood than their Westminster colleagues.

It was the Treasury that wanted the whole network shut during the first lockdown so change of tune required!

 

[Bald Rick]

It was the Treasury that wanted the whole network shut during the first lockdown so change of tune required!

no they didn’t.

 

[Goldfish62]

no they didn’t.

Is this going to turn into an "oh yes they did", "oh no they didn't" exchange? Because it was certainly reported in the media that that was what the Treasury wanted, including in the esteemed Modern Railways.

 

[ainsworth74]

It was the Treasury that wanted the whole network shut during the first lockdown so change of tune required!

I'm not entirely sure that changes my fundamental point though. Indeed if anything it confirms it I'd suggest! The Treasury's first instinct may well have been (I'm not sure I wasn't paying close attention) was to shut the whole thing down either totally or to a significant degree. Instead they were persuaded not to and to run the entire network and pay for almost the entire cost of that running out of public funds whilst there was basically zero fare box revenue (indeed probably negative revenue as so many seasons will have been refunded!). Given their time again I doubt they'd agree to do what they did!

 

[Bikeman78]

Is this going to turn into an "oh yes they did", "oh no they didn't" exchange? Because it was certainly reported in the media that that was what the Treasury wanted, including in the esteemed Modern Railways.

One can only assume such things as route and traction knowledge were pointed out. Once it's lost it becomes costly to retrain. Also trains don't seem to take kindly to being parked up for months. The MTIN for the 143s dropped a lot in 2020, most of them spent months out of service. Whereas Greater Anglia rotated around 50 class 317s to cover just 10 diagrams and their MTIN didn't change much.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is this going to turn into an "oh yes they did", "oh no they didn't" exchange? Because it was certainly reported in the media that that was what the Treasury wanted, including in the esteemed Modern Railways.

Ahh, the media.

 

[Goldfish62]

Ahh, the media.

And presumably you have special access to the Treasury so know that they didn't have this view? Do tell all.

 

[alf]

Ahh, the media.

I am amazed with the speed with which you reply on every subject across the forum.
Are you a railway industry PR team, (Network Rail, Rail Delivery Group?)under the pseudonym Baldrick.
You are always so categoric & certain & fast.

I think we should be told.
But keep posting. I usually enjoy what you say & it makes me think.

 

[the sniper]

During the pandemic, a substantial proportion of pilots and other airline employeees were furloughed, and some have been made redundant. Those who kept their jobs often had to accept a salary cut, and very few will have received any allowances, overtime etc.

AFAIK no franchised train drivers have been furloughed, let alone been made redundant. None have faced a reduction in salary, albeit some will have earned less due to a reduction in overtime.

The contrast could hardly be starker. That is the difference that exposure to the market economy makes.

I'm by no means saying that either is inherently right or wrong. But the railway has undoubtedly been sheltered from the effects of the pandemic, and it seems that politicians (at least in Scotland) are no longer prepared to let that continue.

You don't say...

Which doesn't change that, both industries have offered 'perverse incentives' when needs be, primarily to Pilots and Drivers, to keep the show on the road. Because what's the alternative? Is your point that Pilots can be offered 'perverse incentives' in order to obtain their services, because some day they might get made redundant (some here would pray for that to happen to Drivers), whereas Drivers shouldn't, because ultimately the railway is unnecessary and they're being gifted a living by the state?

I'm sure there are many rail staff who'd have loved to have been furloughed, particularly the few I knew who died, having contracted Covid 19, likely at work given how many got it, pointlessly coming in throughout the whole thing, while the Pilots (deserved beneficiaries of capitalism) sat safely at home, leeching off the state, like most of the country...

 

[Deltic1961]

leeching off the state,

People forced not to work because of government policy are not leeches.

 

[the sniper]

People forced not to work because of government policy are not leeches.

Now who's the commie...

 

[320320]

Aslef have told scotrail that their informal offer has “failed to meet the aspirations of our members”. If an acceptable offer is not made then the matter will be raised with the executive committee and look for a ballot for industrial action including continuous strike action and action short of a strike, including all overtime and presumably a halt to driver training.

I guess we’ll find out soon enough if there’s any money for pay rises.

 

[Christmas]

I'd love to know what the informal offer was...

 

[Bald Rick]

And presumably you have special access to the Treasury so know that they didn't have this view? Do tell all.

Access, yes; special, no; tell all, no.

I am amazed with the speed with which you reply on every subject across the forum.

You are always so categoric & certain & fast.

Unless there’s another Bald Rick out there, I’m definitely not across every subject! And certainly not fast, although sometimes when a notification pops up and if I feel it’s important to set the record straight, and I have the time, I’ll reply there and then otherwise I’ll forget.

 

[Kite159]

Aslef have told scotrail that their informal offer has “failed to meet the aspirations of our members”. If an acceptable offer is not made then the matter will be raised with the executive committee and look for a ballot for industrial action including continuous strike action and action short of a strike, including all overtime and presumably a halt to driver training.

I guess we’ll find out soon enough if there’s any money for pay rises.

I think there will be many people who won't be shocked at that news that ASLEF are not happy.

The only winner from any strikes will be the bus & parking companies as more passengers get fed up with the unreliable rail network and make the switch to bus or driving.

 

[320320]

I'd love to know what the informal offer was...

It‘s difficult to understand why they thought it would ever be accepted as it was only really current trainees that were guaranteed anything and even that wasn’t much.

Trainees held back by 12 months or more would go to the full driver rate 9 months rather than 12 months after passing out.

Drivers with 40 years service guaranteed part time hours if they want it provided they give 12 months notice.

spare movement reduced to 3 hours from 4 hours.

Drivers off sick due to fatality to get 12 months full pay rather than 6 months full then 6 months half pay.

Then COP26 stuff regarding payments and who would be eligible/ineligible, a lot of rubbish in all honesty.

 

[mcmad]

Its still more than anyone else in the industry is getting this year.