• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

ScotRail Industrial Relations issues (including conductor strike action)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,224
Location
Bolton
There's a difference between real term pay cuts (i.e your salary doesn't go up with inflation) and what was earlier suggested with standardising contracts which would lead to actual (and obviously real-term) pay cuts for some crew.
Well not really. The only difference is how large the real cut is isn't it.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

O L Leigh

Established Member
Joined
20 Jan 2006
Messages
5,612
Location
In the cab with the paper
So why is the Conservative party still so popular? It has been many years after all.

Because they base their voting choices on other matters, whether personality, political dogma, personal avarice or something else. My point is that a vote for the Conservatives is not necessarily a vote for public sector pay freezes or that it even enters the minds of voters.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,224
Location
Bolton
Because they base their voting choices on other matters, whether personality, political dogma, personal avarice or something else. My point is that a vote for the Conservatives is not necessarily a vote for public sector pay freezes or that it even enters the minds of voters.
If you wish to use your vote, in general you must use it to support the set of policies which leaves you least unhappy, accepting that you're taking something in the round. Therefore, millions of voters at the very least see cuts to public sector pay as a price worth paying. To suggest people are ignorant of that is your right, but I'd suggest that most Conservative voters would tell you where to stick it.

To put it another way, the railway has done a fairly good job (although not always!) of escaping the tyranny of a Conservative government hell bent on shrinking the state for some time. That has now almost come to an end.

You can hardly claim to be shocked that your public services aren't very good, or, if you work in them, that you're treated terribly at work, if you voted Conservative.
 

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
7,446
Location
London
Well not really. The only difference is how large the real cut is isn't it.

There's definitely a distinction between the two. If people at your depot earn say £45K, £50K and £55K and salaries across the board go up 1%, but inflation is 2%, then that is a real terms cut for everyone.

If there's some "rationalisation" and now everyone is paid £50K after some adjustment to terms & conditions (which is what was being referred to earlier), then some will get a pay rise, some will see a real terms pay cut as their salary stays the same, and some will see a significant pay cut.

As I mentioned earlier, I simply don't see the latter happening in a rationalisation - you'd have to shift everyone up to £55K or there would be outrage.
 

320320

Member
Joined
5 Jun 2015
Messages
289
In which case logically either it continues to be paid, or it’s likely that drivers might not consider it worth their while to do overtime, with the inevitable impact
on the service…

There’s never been any indication or threat from Scotrail that the drivers rest day working enhancement would be removed. It’s been in place since around 2017 and has increased every time the RDW agreement has been renewed so the only way it won’t be paid is if there’s no RDW agreement in place.

The current RDW agreement comes to an end this weekend so we’ll find out by Monday at the latest if it’s been renewed, which you’d have to assume will be tied in with the drivers pay talks, or whether the Scotrail service is going to take an absolute hammering for the entire week rather than only on Sundays due to lack of train crew.

It‘ll be an interesting next few days for Aslef, Scotrail and the Scottish government.

ETA, the drivers RDW agreement actually runs until the 30th of October so Scotrail and the SG have a bit more time to sort something, although there is a meeting tomorrow(thursday) and Aslef have said if there’s not an acceptable offer made then this will lead them into dispute.
 
Last edited:

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,224
Location
Bolton
There's definitely a distinction between the two. If people at your depot earn say £45K, £50K and £55K and salaries across the board go up 1%, but inflation is 2%, then that is a real terms cut for everyone.

If there's some "rationalisation" and now everyone is paid £50K after some adjustment to terms & conditions (which is what was being referred to earlier), then some will get a pay rise, some will see a real terms pay cut as their salary stays the same, and some will see a significant pay cut.

As I mentioned earlier, I simply don't see the latter happening in a rationalisation - you'd have to shift everyone up to £55K or there would be outrage.
All that amounts to is that a larger cut is more likely to provoke unhappiness than a smaller one though. That's fairly obvious.

There’s never been any indication or threat from Scotrail that the drivers rest day working enhancement would be removed. It’s been in place since around 2017 and has increased every time the RDW agreement has been renewed so the only way it won’t be paid is if there’s no RDW agreement in place.

The current RDW agreement comes to an end this weekend so we’ll find out by Monday at the latest if it’s been renewed, which you’d have to assume will be tied in with the drivers pay talks, or whether the Scotrail service is going to take an absolute hammering for the entire week rather than only on Sundays due to lack of train crew.

It‘ll be an interesting next few days for Aslef, Scotrail and the Scottish government.
Is it really realistic that they will agree to renew the drivers' enhancement under the current circumstances? It would seem pretty crass.
 

Devon Sunset

Member
Joined
20 Oct 2020
Messages
110
Location
East Lothian
All that amounts to is that a larger cut is more likely to provoke unhappiness than a smaller one though. That's fairly obvious.


Is it really realistic that they will agree to renew the drivers' enhancement under the current circumstances? It would seem pretty crass.
A director has already admitted on internal social media that it is likely to be renewed because training is nowhere near finished. I did hear that ASLEF were refusing to renew it unless a suitable pay offer was tabled so as has been said we shall find out soon enough. Union reps have been summoned for a meeting on Thursday I believe.
 

320320

Member
Joined
5 Jun 2015
Messages
289
Is it really realistic that they will agree to renew the drivers' enhancement under the current circumstances? It would seem pretty crass.

The driver agreement has never been related to or dependent upon any other grades agreements.

There will either be a renewed agreement with at least the current enhancement or they’ll probably need to implement an emergency timetable to run a service without mass daily cancellations so I don’t think Scotrail will be concerned about being seen to be crass.
 
Last edited:

320320

Member
Joined
5 Jun 2015
Messages
289
Oh, do you think so? Maybe someone should try telling RMT.
Why? They’re not claiming that the separate grades agreements were linked.

They want to be treated equally to other grades. I don’t see why people think that this is some outrageous expectation or desire on the part of the RMT.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,224
Location
Bolton
Why? They’re not claiming that the separate grades agreements were linked.

They want to be treated equally to other grades. I don’t see why people think that this is some outrageous expectation or desire on the part of the RMT.
It's pretty obvious isn't it? You can't use the shortage of suitably trained drivers, if there isn't such a shortage in other grades, as a reason to prioritise an enhancement for drivers, if it's judged "fair" that other grades must be treated equally. Either one applies or the other.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,224
Location
Bolton
You’ll have to explain that logic.
It's legitimate to say "I want what I want because I want it, and what I've already got isn't enough", but I really wish that if that's what it is at the core of the dispute, there were more honesty about it.
 

320320

Member
Joined
5 Jun 2015
Messages
289
It's pretty obvious isn't it? You can't use the shortage of suitably trained drivers, if there isn't such a shortage in other grades, as a reason to prioritise an enhancement for drivers, if it's judged "fair" that other grades must be treated equally. Either one applies or the other.

The driver agreement wasn’t implemented because there was a shortage of drivers and never had any conditions of recruitment levels for it to be removed.
This is something else that grew arms and legs in this thread based on a post from someone who didn’t know what they were talking about.

It's legitimate to say "I want what I want because I want it, and what I've already got isn't enough", but I really wish that if that's what it is at the core of the dispute, there were more honesty about it.
The RMT stance has always been that they want the enhancement because drivers get it. They’ve never tried to hide it, they couldn’t be any more honest about it.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,224
Location
Bolton
The RMT stance has always been that they want the enhancement because drivers get it.
But is that true? If the drivers don't get any enhancement at all will RMT withdraw their dispute? I imagine not.
 

320320

Member
Joined
5 Jun 2015
Messages
289
But is that true? If the drivers don't get any enhancement at all will RMT withdraw their dispute? I imagine not.
You’d have to ask them that question but their stance has always been that they want to be treated equally with regards to RDW enhancements.

Their dispute isn’t solely about RDW, it’s also about them having no pay award for 2020 and 2021.
 

Class83

Member
Joined
8 Jun 2012
Messages
494
There's definitely a distinction between the two. If people at your depot earn say £45K, £50K and £55K and salaries across the board go up 1%, but inflation is 2%, then that is a real terms cut for everyone.

If there's some "rationalisation" and now everyone is paid £50K after some adjustment to terms & conditions (which is what was being referred to earlier), then some will get a pay rise, some will see a real terms pay cut as their salary stays the same, and some will see a significant pay cut.

As I mentioned earlier, I simply don't see the latter happening in a rationalisation - you'd have to shift everyone up to £55K or there would be outrage.
Much more likely anyone above the 'new' rate gets a freeze until inflation rises bring it up to meet their current salary. I've seen that done quite a few places when standardising conditions, actively reducing people's salary is harder than holding it static. Though the overall position depends on ratio of winners and losers, those on £45k are going to be fairly pleased with the situation. Those on £55k will stay there for a few years.
 

O L Leigh

Established Member
Joined
20 Jan 2006
Messages
5,612
Location
In the cab with the paper
It's getting away from the topic at hand, but ...

If you wish to use your vote, in general you must use it to support the set of policies which leaves you least unhappy, accepting that you're taking something in the round.

You can hardly claim to be shocked that your public services aren't very good, or, if you work in them, that you're treated terribly at work, if you voted Conservative.

On those two points alone I am in complete agreement, however ...

Therefore, millions of voters at the very least see cuts to public sector pay as a price worth paying. To suggest people are ignorant of that is your right, but I'd suggest that most Conservative voters would tell you where to stick it.

The situation you present here is somewhat idealised and perhaps not entirely realistic. I would love to think that every voter will go away and digest the manifestos of all the various parties and then make their voting decisions based on how the various manifesto promises match up to their values, but I think that is descriptive mainly of the behaviour of "floating" voters and not of the majority. I would suggest that the majority of voters either have long-standing party allegiances, an interest in only a very narrow range of policies (e.g. immigration, law and order, education and so on) to the exclusion of all others, or are influenced by a desire to better their own individual situation. That is not to say that they are "ignorant" of the impact that their vote might have on public services but rather that they do not consider it in their deliberations, which was the point I was trying to make.

To put it another way, the railway has done a fairly good job (although not always!) of escaping the tyranny of a Conservative government hell bent on shrinking the state for some time. That has now almost come to an end.

Well we'll have to wait and see if the new model of governance brings about any changes, because the precise nature of the relationship between the Government and the railways under GBR is still not clear. I would certainly hope that it brings about some simplifications in the structure of the railway and it's institutions because the system we've been using for the last 25 years is flabby, inefficient and costly. Whatever the case, I don't think that you could call it "shrinking the state" given that it is meant to be a privatised industry and the new model appears to promise more Government oversight rather than less. I would have hoped that the Government would have learned the lesson of the East Coast franchise and applied them to the network as a whole, but I'm not sure that's going to happen.
 

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
7,446
Location
London
Much more likely anyone above the 'new' rate gets a freeze until inflation rises bring it up to meet their current salary. I've seen that done quite a few places when standardising conditions, actively reducing people's salary is harder than holding it static. Though the overall position depends on ratio of winners and losers, those on £45k are going to be fairly pleased with the situation. Those on £55k will stay there for a few years.

I agree that's likely to happen; I'm refering to my earlier post here when talking about how unlikely it is to see someone's salary actually cut.
 

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,217
Location
London
The driver agreement has never been related to or dependent upon any other grades agreements.

There will either be a renewed agreement with at least the current enhancement or they’ll probably need to implement an emergency timetable to run a service without mass daily cancellations so I don’t think Scotrail will be concerned about being seen to be crass.

That seems sensible enough, and not remotely “crass”. These agreements are commonplace and they exist because it pays for TOCs to employ below the compliment of drivers and rely on overtime. Enhancements are often needed to make overtime sufficiently worth it to get enough volunteers.

The alternatives are employing enough drivers to make overtime unnecessary, or having insufficient volunteer drivers to run the service, hence emergency timetable.
 

Goldfish62

Established Member
Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
9,934
That seems sensible enough, and not remotely “crass”. These agreements are commonplace and they exist because it pays for TOCs to employ below the compliment of drivers and rely on overtime. Enhancements are often needed to make overtime sufficiently worth it to get enough volunteers.

The alternatives are employing enough drivers to make overtime unnecessary, or having insufficient volunteer drivers to run the service, hence emergency timetable.
Certainly in the bus industry it's always been a general practice to run a bit under establishment because some drivers like to top up their wages with overtime, eg if saving for a holiday. From experience I can tell you that full staffing doesn't go down well. Unfortunately at the moment the complete opposite problem is the case.

Unlike the railways, however, there's never been the issue of Sundays being reliant on overtime.
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
15,821
Location
East Anglia
Certainly in the bus industry it's always been a general practice to run a bit under establishment because some drivers like to top up their wages with overtime, eg if saving for a holiday. From experience I can tell you that full staffing doesn't go down well. Unfortunately at the moment the complete opposite problem is the case.

Unlike the railways, however, there's never been the issue of Sundays being reliant on overtime.
On the railway ASLEF continually monitor establishments & recruitment of new drivers. Things like RDW agreements with the TOC depend on this criteria being met.
 

al78

Established Member
Joined
7 Jan 2013
Messages
2,400
So why is the Conservative party still so popular? It has been many years after all.
The optimal strategy for a party to gain or maintain power is to recognise its key voting groups and create policies that benefit those groups. For example, consider the elderly, the young, the workforce, businesses, farmers, the unemployed, these are all subsets of the population (with some overlap between groups) that within them, have common interests, and they have different levels of voting power. For example, the elderly population tend to be more active in voting than young people, so it makes sense for a party to enact policies that benefit older people, even if that is to the detriment of young people, because young people do not vote in the same numbers, so they don't matter.
 

LoogaBarooga

Member
Joined
11 Jul 2019
Messages
233
Will anyone notice the difference........?

:E
Probably not haha. Feels pretty pointless to me tbh. As plenty of people have pointed out already in this thread I don't think there's much of an appetite from any of the parties involved to resolve this thing.
 

320320

Member
Joined
5 Jun 2015
Messages
289
RMT members getting balloted for strike action during Cop26

They had an indicative ballot a few weeks ago to gauge support to strike for the entirety of COP26 and the result was near 100% in favour.

They won’t have those numbers on the real ballot but I’d imagine that ScotRail will call their bluff and see how it turns out before they know whether they’ll have to make a realistic offer or have the city in gridlock in front of the world’s cameras.

Probably not haha. Feels pretty pointless to me tbh. As plenty of people have pointed out already in this thread I don't think there's much of an appetite from any of the parties involved to resolve this thing.

People that use the trains will certainly notice if there’s a national strike for 11 days.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top