ScotRail - Possible future rolling stock plans?

[EIKN]

mods note, split from this thread:

ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

A close friend of mine came across a set of documents lying on the table in a staff bothy regarding in-depth details of the refurbishment plan for the ScotRail HST fleet. I can't find any released PDFs online nor on this forum, so I've started this thread dedicated to the ScotRail HST arrival...

www.railforums.co.uk

A while back , I Read something that had been discussed by ScotRail , and I think whomever leases the trains. That there was discussion of adding further trailers to sets ,, eg making remaining four car sets all 5 car , and possibly adding another first class or similar coach, making 6 car I'd assume , it didn't specify the limit .
But I think it was on the back of questions raised on if the use of HST 's could be expanded .

In addition they mentioned that the intention to withdraw the class 156 units on the Oban routes and west, with class 158 units , that are probably as close to the interior comfort of a MK3 , I mentioned that as the cascading of the 158 where it's currently a 156 ( not a comfortable unit on a long journey) .
That may leave a gap for the HST sets .

So could we perhaps see Host's heading to Oban ? Or Tweedbank ?
Or the Line from Carlisle, Dumfries to Glasgow .
And Fife circle .
My apologies if I'm asking in the wrong place but i do think the HST is a fantastic train and limiting its use , on lines that are never to be electrified, but are either a long journey or very busy .

Plus the article on further expansion of the length of the sets, my memory is poor due to health , but it was related to maximising capacity.

Finally is it correct that they are being tested further north? Perhaps malaig ?. .

 

[XCTurbostar]

A while back , I Read something that had been discussed by ScotRail , and I think whomever leases the trains. That there was discussion of adding further trailers to sets ,, eg making remaining four car sets all 5 car , and possibly adding another first class or similar coach, making 6 car I'd assume , it didn't specify the limit .
But I think it was on the back of questions raised on if the use of HST 's could be expanded .

I believe there are not enough spare HST trailers in existence to satisfy all 5/6 car sets now.

 

[47827]

A while back , I Read something that had been discussed by ScotRail , and I think whomever leases the trains. That there was discussion of adding further trailers to sets ,, eg making remaining four car sets all 5 car , and possibly adding another first class or similar coach, making 6 car I'd assume , it didn't specify the limit .
But I think it was on the back of questions raised on if the use of HST 's could be expanded .

In addition they mentioned that the intention to withdraw the class 156 units on the Oban routes and west, with class 158 units , that are probably as close to the interior comfort of a MK3 , I mentioned that as the cascading of the 158 where it's currently a 156 ( not a comfortable unit on a long journey) .
That may leave a gap for the HST sets .

So could we perhaps see Host's heading to Oban ? Or Tweedbank ?
Or the Line from Carlisle, Dumfries to Glasgow .
And Fife circle .
My apologies if I'm asking in the wrong place but i do think the HST is a fantastic train and limiting its use , on lines that are never to be electrified, but are either a long journey or very busy .

Plus the article on further expansion of the length of the sets, my memory is poor due to health , but it was related to maximising capacity.

Finally is it correct that they are being tested further north? Perhaps malaig ?. .

There has been mention in the Scotrail May 2022 timetable consultation of the company looking to see if any of the spare sets (presumably due to them to not being as intensively diagrammed as planned when the order was originally made) can be resourced for the scenic secondary Highland routes. Presume Kyle or Oban would be the only 2 workable lines. We know that clearence is OK but there would be paperwork and crewing constraints to consider. Glasgow Queen Street have some staff that sign both HSTs and the West Highland, with Inverness the same for Kyle and HSTs one assumes. I wouldn't expect to see any use of the sets to places like Tweedbank (even if Edinburgh could supply adequate crew) or Stranraer/Carlisle further south (probably no crew that do both anyway) as I'd doubt any of those lines could justify the business case. If the boats still ran off Stranraer and foot passenger numbers were OK I guess they'd have been a great method of travel compared to a 156.

PS there were some instances of spare hst sets getting work on the Fife Circle over the last year or so but no idea if that still happens. They had appeared on both Peak services plus Saturday shopper type services.

 

[adrock1976]

There has been mention in the Scotrail May 2022 timetable consultation of the company looking to see if any of the spare sets (presumably due to them to not being as intensively diagrammed as planned when the order was originally made) can be resourced for the scenic secondary Highland routes. Presume Kyle or Oban would be the only 2 workable lines. We know that clearence is OK but there would be paperwork and crewing constraints to consider. Glasgow Queen Street have some staff that sign both HSTs and the West Highland, with Inverness the same for Kyle and HSTs one assumes. I wouldn't expect to see any use of the sets to places like Tweedbank (even if Edinburgh could supply adequate crew) or Stranraer/Carlisle further south (probably no crew that do both anyway) as I'd doubt any of those lines could justify the business case. If the boats still ran off Stranraer and foot passenger numbers were OK I guess they'd have been a great method of travel compared to a 156.

PS there were some instances of spare hst sets getting work on the Fife Circle over the last year or so but no idea if that still happens. They had appeared on both Peak services plus Saturday shopper type services.

For HSTs to work to Oban, they would have to be fitted with RETB equipment as that is the signalling system used north of Helensburgh Upper. The lines north of Inverness I believe are also RETB.

Furthermore, the HSTs were built between 1976-82, and the 156s and 158s were built in 1987 and 1989 respectively.

Also, plans should be in place to gradually ban diesel trains from terminating in trainshed/low ceiling stations, bearing in mind Glasgow has recently hosted the COP26 summit.

 

[najaB]

For HSTs to work to Oban, they would have to be fitted with RETB equipment as that is the signalling system used north of Helensburgh Upper. The lines north of Inverness I believe are also RETB

That is not an insurmountable problem. There are portable units which could be used.

 

[47827]

That is not an insurmountable problem. There are portable units which could be used.

Indeed, I failed to mention the RETB thing as its rarely been a total show stopper before for occasional runs. For an odd train per week they'd potentially use portable kits or it'd have to be a small number of sets so fitted. Only would daily services warrant anything more. I'd doubt the Midland Pullman is yet fitted with a permanent kit although can see it happening if its doing several runs a year on those lines given the money behind that project.

Regarding Adrock's post on the age of HST sets versus 156s, Scotrail probably would have kept 158s and 170s on the current Intercity diagrams were it an issue. They were simply a better train for the job and so extensively refurbished (along with power units that are newer than the trains they've replaced) it's simply old metal frames and keeping on top of maintaining and safeguarding the metal work (you'd be surprised how much repair work and reskinning has kept vintage mk1s going).

Whilst HST sets are on the books there is no question of using them for more than a token amount of tourist work on those RETB routes anyway so not worth making serious fuss over. There is a greater debate about pollution and the environment but that's a separate issue over whether they will get utilised on anything other than the current lines and indeed outright bans on stock that form a small proportion of the overall services on a route to meet a conference target can be losing sight of the bigger picture if Queen Street is rapidly turning into an EMU hub anyhow. Gosh the old Paxman power cars visiting from far afield used to actually poison the station much more adversely as per other older trains too. Things are already greatly improved. Internal UK plane travel, use of private jets, helicopters etc and the numbers of gas guzzling 4x4s traversing Scotland are probably all much more pressing.

 

[Stathern Jc]

Coincidentally, I was talking to a friend this afternoon about options for a day trip on the Far North Line. She didn't seem very excited to hear that it could be a 7 in the morning start with the only catering a Scotrail trolley with a flask that would be lukewarm after the first hour or so.
The comfort of an HST, with of course the mini buffet to provide an acceptable standard of catering for a journey of over an hour, would be appealing on the tourist lines, and I think would attract more users.
"Which doors for Beauly???"

I'm sure a 158 would still be an improvement on the West Highland over the 156s; interesting to wonder how many will choose to sit with the bikes in the 153.

 

[CEN60]

Coincidentally, I was talking to a friend this afternoon about options for a day trip on the Far North Line. She didn't seem very excited to hear that it could be a 7 in the morning start with the only catering a Scotrail trolley with a flask that would be lukewarm after the first hour or so.
The comfort of an HST, with of course the mini buffet to provide an acceptable standard of catering for a journey of over an hour, would be appealing on the tourist lines, and I think would attract more users.
"Which doors for Beauly???"

I'm sure a 158 would still be an improvement on the West Highland over the 156s; interesting to wonder how many will choose to sit with the bikes in the 153.

"Which doors for Beauly??? - this opens a can of worms - In terms of platforms on the Far North & Kyle - how would the operation of the HST actually work - regarding which doors to open at which stations. Also the request stop nature of some stations - would the HST Power cars be suitable to carry out this type of service.

 

[Falcon1200]

Given that the Far North Line service currently is operated by 2-car Class 158 sets, and I'm not aware that these are regularly overcrowded, could the traffic really justify a 4-car HST instead ? Also, as well as the four Wick/Thurso trains per day, there are numerous short workings, and the Kyle Line, all worked by the one compatible fleet; These could not ever all be replaced by HSTs. I agree that it would be lovely to ride the Far North in an HST but I cannot see any justification for using them on the route.

 

[47827]

Given that the Far North Line service currently is operated by 2-car Class 158 sets, and I'm not aware that these are regularly overcrowded, could the traffic really justify a 4-car HST instead ? Also, as well as the four Wick/Thurso trains per day, there are numerous short workings, and the Kyle Line, all worked by the one compatible fleet; These could not ever all be replaced by HSTs. I agree that it would be lovely to ride the Far North in an HST but I cannot see any justification for using them on the route.

Only if there was a case for a business train to Edinburgh or if loadings significantly rose. Doubt it will happen as you say as the justification is thin at best.

 

[najaB]

Only if there was a case for a business train to Edinburgh or if loadings significantly rose.

Wick to Edinburgh with a HST would be problematic for the call at Inverness, no? Would have to go around the Rose Street curve and reverse wouldn't it?

 

[47827]

Wick to Edinburgh with a HST would be problematic for the call at Inverness, no? Would have to go around the Rose Street curve and reverse wouldn't it?

Correct. Although on a journey of that nature it'd probably be barely noticeable if you are stuck on board for several hours. I suspect the manoeuvre would cost approx 10-15 mins (although longer on land cruises that regularly start off the main platforms due to train length). If the Far North was better populated and the route about an hour or so quicker (more in line with South of Inverness) I'm sure the service would run but Inverness would have been modelled to have platforms/a station on the curve that avoids the present main station layout.

 

[Deltic1961]

The comfort of an HST, with of course the mini buffet to provide an acceptable standard of catering for a journey

What catering .... the HST I was on last week on Aberdeen to Inverness has the buffet completely closed off and no trolley service at all. been like this since the start of covid. Not sure what the excuse is to still have catering suspended. If it's not the HST it's a crammed 2 car 158 with so much overcrowding a trolley wouldn't get through anyway.

Stark contrast to the LNER Azuma I got to Edinburgh where purchases were brought directly to your seat.

Scotrail (Abellio) plainly don't care about passenger comfort on long journeys. It's the first time I've travelled LNER and it was miles better than Scotrail and considerably cheaper too.

 

[haggishunter]

What catering .... the HST I was on last week on Aberdeen to Inverness has the buffet completely closed off and no trolley service at all.

The only catering on ScotRail is the West Highland Line and not all services - on splitting services it’s Oban or Fort William and the trolley goes with the 153 on the relevant services.

One of the catering team was telling me that there’s less than half the ordinal WHL catering staff left working for Abellio, but the trolley has been having very good trade - the eating and drinking while seated exemption to the mask mandate seems to be a very good sales aid! Certainly that’s been my experience on the WHL, literally every group buying a drink when the trolley goes past!

 

[snookertam]

The prospect of using spare HST capacity for Oban services is a non starter. A pipe dream thought up purely to distract from they and Transport Scotland’s scandalous timetable proposals. If nothing else, there’s unlikely to be much in the way of spare capacity as Intercity frequency is remaining largely unchanged.

An HST would also lose the enhanced speed limits available for sprinter traffic on the west highland line as well. It’s an all round terrible idea, so thankfully it’s never happening.

 

[haggishunter]

The prospect of using spare HST capacity for Oban services is a non starter. A pipe dream thought up purely to distract from they and Transport Scotland’s scandalous timetable proposals. If nothing else, there’s unlikely to be much in the way of spare capacity as Intercity frequency is remaining largely unchanged.

An HST would also lose the enhanced speed limits available for sprinter traffic on the west highland line as well. It’s an all round terrible idea, so thankfully it’s never happening.

It’s a starter at ministerial level in the Scottish Government for the WHL about building on the Great Scenic Railways of Scotland concept and has been under discussion since before the first Covid lockdown so is not just some idea dreamt up recently because of the current timetable consultation.

 

[AlistairCowell]

Next new trains for non-electrified routes will be either be battery or hydrogen.
I wouldn't be surprised if ScotRail orders VivaRail Class 230 units.

 

[JonathanH]

Next new trains for non-electrified routes will be either be battery or hydrogen.
I wouldn't be surprised if ScotRail orders VivaRail Class 230 units.

I would have thought that they are more likely to buy the technology and fit it to other units that have a better public facing ambiance.

I don't think anyone wants to travel from Tweedbank to Edinburgh or around the Fife Circle in a 230 but the technology might work in a reworked version of a current unit, if it can be made to work.

230s might be worthwhile for Glasgow Queen Street to Anniesland but not really anywhere else.

 

[najaB]

I wouldn't be surprised if ScotRail orders VivaRail Class 230 units.

I would be extremely surprised if they did. The 60mph top speed makes them unsuitable for most of the Scotrail network.

 

[AlistairCowell]

I would have thought that they are more likely to buy the technology and fit it to other units that have a better public facing ambiance.

I don't think anyone wants to travel from Tweedbank to Edinburgh or around the Fife Circle in a 230 but the technology might work in a reworked version of a current unit, if it can be made to work.

230s might be worthwhile for Glasgow Queen Street to Anniesland but not really anywhere else.

Thurso to Wick is another shout, I think it has been talked about a while back.

Levenmouth line is to be electrified when it re-opens, but not on a Forth Rail Bridge, so somethings going to have to be done it, though it is suggested that this might be overhead / battery EMU.

 

[najaB]

Thurso to Wick is another shout, I think it has been talked about a while back.

A significant portion of the Far North Line is >60mph though. 320s would slow the service down.

 

[JonathanH]

A significant portion of the Far North Line is >60mph though. 320s would slow the service down.

It seems the idea of the previous poster is that the 230 is just sent to Thurso and never works south of Georgemas Junction.

 

[roadierway77]

Earlier this month Alstom and Eversholt Rail agreed to work together to design and build a small fleet of new hydrogen trains for Scotland. They are hoped to come into service in 2022.

I would guess that within the next couple of years ScotRail will put in an order for a battery-variant of the class 385. According to Hitachi, fitting batteries to 385s is possible. A 385 variant would also deliver a more-standardized fleet, helping to streamline and simplify operations and maintenance, and more orders for Hitachi helps keep the plant at Newton Aycliffe afloat. The 385s have also proved to be versatile, being a good fit for both regional express and suburban services.

As mentioned 230s may be suitable for Maryhill but plans are to run plain EMUs on the line - though when this will happen is yet to be decided.

 

[najaB]

It seems the idea of the previous poster is that the 230 is just sent to Thurso and never works south of Georgemas Junction.

Ah, okay. That makes more sense. I mis-read it as "to Thurso and Wick".

 

[47827]

.

Ah, okay. That makes more sense. I mis-read it as "to Thurso and Wick".

Trains currently timed at 28 mins on average with a stop at Georgemas. If it was possible to run non stop (although I doubt it would happen) it could be cut to 25/26 minutes and trains could be run up to a maximum of one per hour off each end, excluding any periods when Inverness services are on the move. Suspect in reality it would just do several round trips per day on top of the 4 current Inverness services each way but the Wick service could also be speeded up by using the shuttle service to serve Thurso as a connection at Georgemas.

 

[D6130]

I'm sure a 158 would still be an improvement on the West Highland over the 156s; interesting to wonder how many will choose to sit with the bikes in the 153.

When my wife and I went to Oban at the end of July, we chose to sit with the bikes in the 153, as its re-upholstered and newly-covered seats were far more comfortable than the horrendous Fainsa Sophias in the refurbished 156. That was, of course, before the more expensive Highland Explorer fares kicked-in.

IIRC, it has been discussed on another thread that 158s are unsuitable for the West Highland Lines due to clearance problems with the plug doors on the curved island platforms.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When my wife and I went to Oban at the end of July, we chose to sit with the bikes in the 153, as its re-upholstered and newly-covered seats were far more comfortable than the horrendous Fainsa Sophias in the refurbished 156. That was, of course, before the more expensive Highland Explorer fares kicked-in.

They aren't Sophias in the 156s, they are ironing boards, I am not sure of the official name.

The Richmonds in the 153 will be fine until the bases inevitably collapse.

 

[waverley47]

Earlier this month Alstom and Eversholt Rail agreed to work together to design and build a small fleet of new hydrogen trains for Scotland. They are hoped to come into service in 2022.

I would guess that within the next couple of years ScotRail will put in an order for a battery-variant of the class 385. According to Hitachi, fitting batteries to 385s is possible. A 385 variant would also deliver a more-standardized fleet, helping to streamline and simplify operations and maintenance, and more orders for Hitachi helps keep the plant at Newton Aycliffe afloat. The 385s have also proved to be versatile, being a good fit for both regional express and suburban services.

As mentioned 230s may be suitable for Maryhill but plans are to run plain EMUs on the line - though when this will happen is yet to be decided.

The hydrogen trains currently have no certain destination. Most likely would be Tees valley area for the Whitby line ect, for which ten units would be perfect. We don't know where they're going, but I imagine it will be several years (and several iterations) yet before we see ScotRail order hydrogen units.

Regarding battery 385s, no order has been placed but yes, I believe this is the general idea. Unless another company offers a more comprehensive tender, and once Newton Aycliffe can be trusted again, then we shall see an order placed for battery units with a range of about 30-50 miles.

 

[Deltic1961]

But what's the point of battery when you need the same electricity to charge them as say the 385s?

 

[Blindtraveler]

My money is on it being re-nationalised and the Scottish government immediately placing an order with somebody for a whole pile of new stuff to eradicate the HST, the longer distance 17058 diagrams as well as the 156 fleet which spend all or part of their time underneath lovely wires. This for them would look really good and as things stand right now would be welcome to buy both passengers and staff alike I'm sure, still won't make me vote for them though