Scotrail - Post Covid Consultation - Service Reductions

[kez19]

The term has been in use for some time to describe the alliance between Network Rail Scotland and ScotRail.

I have been familar with the branding as - Scotrail - Scotlands Railway on their trains but just seem surprised by the logo and the phrasing which made think of something else.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You were probably waiting for me to come in with this - but why not a Scotland-Takt? If everything was planned to connect properly, the negative effect of reduced frequencies would be considerably reduced.

 

[applepie2100]

You were probably waiting for me to come in with this - but why not a Scotland-Takt? If everything was planned to connect properly, the negative effect of reduced frequencies would be considerably reduced.

It sounds like a really good idea, especially when it comes to the former SPT area which could almost be turned into an S Bahn style setup. For this reason alone it will never happen!

 

[Happilyretired]

Which was what the HSTs were brought in for. So will we see rakes of HSTs parked up with no work? If so, that is another waste of money to have assets sitting doing nothing.

Any sidings at Prestwick airport?

I’m a little surprised they used a 170 in that, rather than a shiny new HST set.

Shiny, maybe, but new?

 

[fgwrich]

Any sidings at Prestwick airport?


Shiny, maybe, but new?

New to ScotRail, the once much lauded Inter7City. Considering the detail of including "An Inter7City Service" in every PA along the route, I'd be chasing to promote that than a 20 year old Turbostar saved by a last minute.com move by TS last year (15? extra Turbostars retained).

 

[Bletchleyite]

New to ScotRail, the once much lauded Inter7City. Considering the detail of including "An Inter7City Service" in every PA along the route, I'd be chasing to promote that than a 20 year old Turbostar saved by a last minute.com move by TS last year (15? extra Turbostars retained).

I note a mention under the West Highland Line of "Inter7City rolling stock" potentially being used at busy times, so perhaps it's a case of matching capacity to demand on specific services?

I suspect it features a 170 because that's what was passing when they filmed it. Logic would have been an EMU.

 

[Journeyman]

I reckon the HST fleet will only ever be partially used, with DMUs being used as much as possible, because they're cheaper to operate and there's more slack in the fleet now.

What a ridiculous waste it's all been.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I reckon the HST fleet will only ever be partially used, with DMUs being used as much as possible, because they're cheaper to operate and there's more slack in the fleet now.

What a ridiculous waste it's all been.

There's no need to "reckon", they've published it on the Highland Mainline timetable (not the others oddly):

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/sites/default/files/assets/download_ct/20210820/Ecey_7a7-2sbB_7KyRDiV4sNkBKc1zvrOnAAYtQg_jM/may_22_-_inverness_-_central_belt_timetable.pdf

Interestingly the 170 vs HST is not balanced by direction on that timetable, so I guess unless there's a scrapyard at Inverness for HSTs some of them will be going back via Aberdeen on a similarly unbalanced timetable.

 

[alangla]

You were probably waiting for me to come in with this - but why not a Scotland-Takt? If everything was planned to connect properly, the negative effect of reduced frequencies would be considerably reduced.

The big issue with a lot of this is poor frequencies on routes where the vast majority of journeys will be point to point. Proper (and reliable!) connections would help alleviate the loss of Cumbernauld to Edinburgh, Fife Circle & Borders to Gyle journeys and would speed up the glacial times of Glasgow & Edinburgh to Inverness where a change is needed (nearly 4 hours vs a dual carriageway A9?) though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The big issue with a lot of this is poor frequencies on routes where the vast majority of journeys will be point to point. Proper (and reliable!) connections would help alleviate the loss of Cumbernauld to Edinburgh, Fife Circle & Borders to Gyle journeys and would speed up the glacial times of Glasgow & Edinburgh to Inverness where a change is needed (nearly 4 hours vs a dual carriageway A9?) though.

Re the latter, the Swiss way to do it would be a two-hourly service from each, with a two-hourly connection from the other one in the gap. I don't know if the single track can cope with that, though?

 

[Starmill]

Re the latter, the Swiss way to do it would be a two-hourly service from each, with a two-hourly connection from the other one in the gap. I don't know if the single track can cope with that, though?

That's sort of what the 2019 solution was already, with connections at Perth. It wasn't entirely clock-face though sadly, and of course some trains used a different route.

 

[alangla]

That's sort of what the 2019 solution was already, with connections at Perth. It wasn't entirely clock-face though sadly, and of course some trains used a different route.

@Bletchleyite - yep. That was what pretty much existed - mainly services from Edinburgh to Inverness with the Glasgow to Aberdeen trains providing the connection.
In terms of the single line, previously there was an option at the busiest times when a Glasgow & Edinburgh train were due to follow each other from Perth to Inverness and the first one was delayed, it would wait at Perth until the following one arrived & they'd run coupled to Inverness serving the stops for both trains. Try doing that with a pair of HSTs...

 

[Blindtraveler]

The proposed fleet utilisation on so-called intercity services really speaks volumes to me about how ScotRail feel about the entire HST project now. Very sad indeed. And asked it Inverness to Central belt journey time, I'm afraid the coach companies won that battle a long time ago and and once the A9 is fully jewelled it will be even more reliable and suspect we will see something like an hourly service at least as far as an interchange point like Perth where passengers for Edinburgh and Glasgow via various points can interchange very easily

 

[Bletchleyite]

@Bletchleyite - yep. That was what pretty much existed - mainly services from Edinburgh to Inverness with the Glasgow to Aberdeen trains providing the connection.
In terms of the single line, previously there was an option at the busiest times when a Glasgow & Edinburgh train were due to follow each other from Perth to Inverness and the first one was delayed, it would wait at Perth until the following one arrived & they'd run coupled to Inverness serving the stops for both trains. Try doing that with a pair of HSTs...

I was almost going to mention portion working there - ideal for DMUs of course - 3 from Edinburgh and 3 from Glasgow -> 6 on the HML - but of course that would probably mean a frequency reduction.

I also don't entirely get the bitty stopping patterns. Are these because of single line capacity?

The proposed fleet utilisation on so-called intercity services really speaks volumes to me about how ScotRail feel about the entire HST project now. Very sad indeed. And asked it Inverness to Central belt journey time, I'm afraid the coach companies won that battle a long time ago and and once the A9 is fully jewelled it will be even more reliable and suspect we will see something like an hourly service at least as far as an interchange point like Perth where passengers for Edinburgh and Glasgow via various points can interchange very easily

Coaches won what? I've done a Megabus with a change at Broxden. Broxden is a dump with "facilities" that make the old MK Coachway look good, and the coach was cramped and uncomfortable. Even a 156 would be better.

 

[Bald Rick]

I also don't entirely get the bitty stopping patterns. Are these because of single line capacity?

More about the trade off between journey times and demand from the smaller stations.

 

[Kite159]

The only winner from this timetable consultation will be the bus & coach companies who will gain extra passengers put off with the unsuitable rolling stock (3 coach 170s) or extended journey times by the trains calling at every granny's front door.

Some of evening trains when they drop to hourly will be rammed with passengers returning home after an evening out in the city and you know they will be as short as possible (single units) to save on the cost.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only winner from this timetable consultation will be the bus & coach companies who will gain extra passengers put off with the unsuitable rolling stock (3 coach 170s) or extended journey times by the trains calling at every granny's front door.

I don't see what is unsuitable about 170s. They have very nice low density interiors, good seats, excellent window alignment and aren't excessively noisy. The main issue with them was 3 car being too short, but if demand is well down it probably isn't.

Can anyone shed any light on why the timetable I linked above seems to show 2 northbound 170 services but 5 southbound? An error, or interworking with the Aberdeen route?

 

[Journeyman]

I don't see what is unsuitable about 170s. They have very nice low density interiors, good seats, excellent window alignment and aren't excessively noisy. The main issue with them was 3 car being too short, but if demand is well down it probably isn't.

Exactly, I find them absolutely fine, and given that first class on HSTs is currently locked out of use, the capacity issue, for the time being at least, is neither here nor there.

The 170s are ideal for Scottish domestic journeys. At least they work.

 

[kez19]

The only winner from this timetable consultation will be the bus & coach companies who will gain extra passengers put off with the unsuitable rolling stock (3 coach 170s) or extended journey times by the trains calling at every granny's front door.

Some of evening trains when they drop to hourly will be rammed with passengers returning home after an evening out in the city and you know they will be as short as possible (single units) to save on the cost.

Regarding evening trains (assuming this is between Glasgow and Edinburgh in general), wasn’t that what kicked off on Scotrail social media about lack of seats/spacing pre-COVID? ie sports events in either city (just something off top of my head), surely this should have been thought of before the consultation timetables?

I noted someone posted on the Scotrail Twitter feed under the consultation about employment pre-COVID (using trains), I’m confused I filled it in and said leisure were questions different on the option you chose? (on the consultation look at user therichb)

 

[Deltic1961]

and given that first class on HSTs is currently locked out of use

Not any more. Scotrail tweeted this morning that First Class is back in operation

https://twitter.com/ScotRail/status/1429743222025302024

 

[Journeyman]

Not any more. Scotrail tweeted this morning that First Class is back in operation

https://twitter.com/ScotRail/status/1429743222025302024

God be praised, it's a miracle!

Any sign of catering?

 

[ainsworth74]

Not any more. Scotrail tweeted this morning that First Class is back in operation

https://twitter.com/ScotRail/status/1429743222025302024

Typical! Just after my visit at the end of last week!

Though I note they're still claiming this to be true:

The train operator had removed First Class during the height of the pandemic to allow any passenger to sit in the carriages and help customers keep a safe distance from each other.

Which experience on the ground shows to have not been the case

 

[Deltic1961]

God be praised, it's a miracle!

Just a train turning up is a miracle for Scotrail

 

[Journeyman]

Just a train turning up is a miracle for Scotrail

It is on a Sunday.

 

[alangla]

I don't see what is unsuitable about 170s. They have very nice low density interiors, good seats, excellent window alignment and aren't excessively noisy. The main issue with them was 3 car being too short, but if demand is well down it probably isn't.

The 1/3, 2/3 doors are fffffffffrrrrrrreeeeeeezzzzziiiinnnnngggggggg when they open in winter though!!!

They're also pretty slow off the mark, especially compared to a "real" Intercity unit like a Voyager (this is purely a comment on performance - please don't start a never-ending discussion about windows or seat comfort!!!!).
They do have the advantage of being able to either double up or tow a 158 behind them when things are busy - something Scotrail used to be reasonably good at, though often not on the Inverness turns. Can't do that with an HST...

 

[marks87]

Re the latter, the Swiss way to do it would be a two-hourly service from each, with a two-hourly connection from the other one in the gap. I don't know if the single track can cope with that, though?

It's the Dutch system as well (ironically, given who currently runs ScotRail). One example I used frequently in the before-times is Amersfoot, which acts as a 4-way hub to create a half-hourly frequency between Schiphol/Utrecht and Enschede/<somewhere I can't remember>.

This was sort of the model I was getting at in my post about the Aberdeen-Edinburgh/Glasgow services, albeit on a smaller scale. These should take advantage of Dundee's status as a junction and have an Aberdeen-Edinburgh/Aberdeen-Glasgow connect with a Dundee-Glasgow/Dundee-Edinburgh, and vice versa. Sure, the Dundee terminators have more stops, but it at least allows Aberdeen passengers the option if they so wish.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 1/3, 2/3 doors are fffffffffrrrrrrreeeeeeezzzzziiiinnnnngggggggg when they open in winter though!!!

That is a downside, but the corresponding upside is faster boarding/alighting and easier access to seats.

They're also pretty slow off the mark, especially compared to a "real" Intercity unit like a Voyager (this is purely a comment on performance - please don't start a never-ending discussion about windows or seat comfort!!!!).

They are as quick off the mark as a full size HST or Pendolino. They are slightly underpowered, I'll give you, but it doesn't overly matter on long distance services because there aren't many stops. They are bad at local stopping services, but the Highland Mainline isn't a local stopping service even though most trains serve most stations, because they are so far apart.

 

[alangla]

They are bad at local stopping services, but the Highland Mainline isn't a local stopping service even though most trains serve most stations, because they are so far apart.

This used to be one of the bugbears with the HML service - there was a 3 car 170 that left Glasgow at 1810 or so for Inverness, so the first of the evening off-peak services. It stopped at Every. Single. Station. from Larbert to Inverness, including "local" shacks like Bridge of Allan & was always absolutely mobbed with a mix of local commuters & people who'd waited for the first off-peak departure.

 

[Kite159]

Typical! Just after my visit at the end of last week!

Though I note they're still claiming this to be true:



Which experience on the ground shows to have not been the case

They will probably claim as the first class areas on a 170 were available for use that covers that basis.

Unless they also locked out those areas, similar to GWR on the 166s.

 

[cnjb8]

The advert below is now being broadcast here in Scotland. How it matches up with the consultation and proposed timetable is something probably only an SNP politician could explain with a straight face:

It feels very much like most of the good work done under First Group is now being completely undone both by Abellio (also seen in their other franchises, most notably EMR) and now by the Scottish Assembly through Transport Scotland. I appreciate that Covid has lead to big changes in travel patterns but rather than wholesale reductions in services we should be looking at ways to encourage railway usage with services run by comfortable, modern rolling stock with value for money fares which make people want to get out of their cars. This achieves nothing but the exact opposite.

The EMR situation isn’t necessarily Abellio’s fault. Neither is the ScotRail cuts, which (if I’ve understood it correctly) are being mandated by Transport Scotland.
Edit: I see what you mean now with Abellios not great performance, my apologies