Scotrail - Post Covid Consultation - Service Reductions

[ScotRail158725]

One thing I’m not a fan of is keeping Ayr 2tph, sure don’t reinstate the 4tph, but 2tph calling at basically all the stations isn’t great at all.

Do they expect people in summer to pack in on a 3 carriage all stops train to Ayr? Having done it when lockdown eased, it was full and standing.

Ayr gets 1tp2h fast again

Ayr services definately should be 4tph
Same with the E&G, which it gets back in peak times, however they should get rid of the Lenzie and Bishopbriggs stops

 

[Scotrail12]

Ayr needs 3tph if not 4 - it's just too long of a journey on the all stop train to do often. And they need more carriages, it's often tricky at summer.

 

[ScotRail158725]

Ayr needs 3tph if not 4 - it's just too long of a journey on the all stop train to do often.

Absolutely. Especially on hot summer days which fills numerous 7 or 8 car services

 

[Frankton Junct]

Where exactly is the link to this consultation on the ScotRail website?

See Fit for the Future

 

[duffers2324]

Just done my bit in the feedback section, not that im expecting anything to be done, I understand the government need to save money where possible but as others have said this whole consultation is at odds with what they plan to do for the benefit of travel in Scotland by train.

My local line is the Maryhill line and is probably most suited to this change with remaining hourly but the problem is it lessens connections elsewhere IE places that are running a more frequent service.

It's ok if you know the times of the service and can time it for those services especially when you know you want to travel as especially hourly but unfortunately there are situations where you cant just wait for the next train if you need to travel straight away, waiting another hour if you know you may have missed a train and in a lot of cases especially for myself, I could be where i need to be before the next train comes at my station of origin.

For me this is going to turn me back onto the buses for sure, which pains me as i know they are more expensive than the train but they obviously would be now far more frequent than the train.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Just done my bit in the feedback section, not that im expecting anything to be done, I understand the government need to save money where possible but as others have said this whole consultation is at odds with what they plan to do for the benefit of travel in Scotland by train. My local line is the Maryhill line and is probably most suited to this change with remaining hourly but the problem is it lessens connections elsewhere IE places that are running a more frequent service, Its ok if you know the times of the service and can time it for those services especially when you know you want to travel as especially hourly but unfortunately there are situations where you cant just wait for the next train if you need to travel straight away, waiting another hour if you know you may have missed a train and in a lot of cases especially for myself, i could be where i need to be before the next train comes at my station of origin. For me this is going to turn me back onto the buses for sure, which pains me as i know they are more expensive than the train but they obviously would be now far more frequent than the train.

I can agree on the Maryhill line staying hourly, given the areas served by the route do have relatively good bus connection to the City Centre, I rarely see a packed Maryhill line train.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I'm sure that Stagecoach are more than happy to let Abellio suffer !

Albellio are insulated now with EMAs so the only people that will suffer are teh Scottish taxpayer.

Im not local so can't comment on what are appropriate frequencies on each route but I wonder what input Transport Scotland had in this or was just left to ScotRail to find some savings.

 

[kez19]

I'm sure that Stagecoach are more than happy to let Abellio suffer !

lol

 

[ld0595]

Am I being dim or is anyone else struggling to locate where to respond to the consultation? I can't see anything on the "fit for the future" page.

 

[ScottDarg]

Am I being dim or is anyone else struggling to locate where to respond to the consultation? I can't see anything on the "fit for the future" page.

You need to click on the routes you want to view in the Timetables area (https://www.scotrail.co.uk/timetable-routes) and there will be a blue box at the bottom of each section (e.g. West of Scotland).

It's not as easy to locate as it should be and restricts you to commenting on that route only rather than giving an overall opinion on all of the proposed changes as per an earlier Twitter response: https://twitter.com/ScotRail/status/1428769618760503296?s=19

You would be providing feedback for the specific route you would be travelling on so we can accurately collect data. ^Megan

 

[DunsBus]

If I've read the timetable correctly, the Sunday service (currently suspended due to the strike action) on the Borders line is to be scrapped completely. This, the reduction in off-peak Monday-Friday services, and rumours that the current reduced level of service run by Borders Buses is set to become permanent, spells a very bleak future for Borders public transport - the only winners there will be car dealerships.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

If I've read the timetable correctly, the Sunday service (currently suspended due to the strike action) on the Borders line is to be scrapped completely. This, the reduction in off-peak Monday-Friday services, and rumours that the current reduced level of service run by Borders Buses is set to become permanent, spells a very bleak future for Borders public transport - the only winners there will be car dealerships.

Few (if any?) of the the Sunday timetables are listed, presumably something to do with the strike action and not to get people’s hopes up.

 

[ld0595]

You need to click on the routes you want to view in the Timetables area (https://www.scotrail.co.uk/timetable-routes) and there will be a blue box at the bottom of each section (e.g. West of Scotland).

It's not as easy to locate as it should be and restricts you to commenting on that route only rather than giving an overall opinion on all of the proposed changes as per an earlier Twitter response: https://twitter.com/ScotRail/status/1428769618760503296?s=19

Thanks - much appreciated. Pretty poor from Scotrail that it isn't easy to find and it seems like the survey questions are carefully worded and skewed towards the outcome they want. I'll be writing to my MSP about this to express my discontent as well and I recommend others do so too!

 

[adrock1976]

Looking at the Glasgow - Falkirk Grahamston via Cumbernauld, I have noticed that to Falkirk, there are no times in the row for Stepps, and in the Glasgow direction, there are no times at all in the row for Robroyston. See https://www.scotrail.co.uk/sites/de..._-_glasgow_-_falkirk_grahamston_timetable.pdf for details.

Was this an oversight, or is something more sinister going on?

 

[kez19]

Thanks - much appreciated. Pretty poor from Scotrail that it isn't easy to find and it seems like the survey questions are carefully worded and skewed towards the outcome they want. I'll be writing to my MSP about this to express my discontent as well and I recommend others do so too!

I just filled it in, I was expecting loads of questions - I answered but surely it couldn’t be just one question pending on area? (East Scotland I answered)

Looking at the Glasgow - Falkirk Grahamston via Cumbernauld, I have noticed that to Falkirk, there are no times in the row for Stepps, and in the Glasgow direction, there are no times at all in the row for Robroyston. See https://www.scotrail.co.uk/sites/de..._-_glasgow_-_falkirk_grahamston_timetable.pdf for details.

Was this an oversight, or is something more sinister going on?

Would it just mean your service is non stop (avoiding those stops in particular?)

 

[adrock1976]

I just filled it in, I was expecting loads of questions - I answered but surely it couldn’t be just one question pending on area? (East Scotland I answered)



Would it just mean your service is non stop (avoiding those stops in particular?)

No, because it is for every train.

During my time in Scotland, everything has always called at all stations along the Cumbernauld route.

 

[Class 170101]

Having looked at this plenty of holes to pick in the timetables I read so far
Glasgow to Edinburgh via Falkirk seems to not reflect that the peaks are likely to be longer but flatter so there should be a 15 minute service from 07:00 and between 15:30 and 19:45.
Glasgow and Edinburgh to Dunblane / Alloa going hourly post 19:00 I would be surprised if that reflects future ways of working nor the leisure market though oddly it goes back to half hourly around 22:30 or so until end of service
Some gaps in Edinburgh to Aberdeen fast services standard pattern in both directions, why?
Borders services why the swap in the hourly pattern between intra peak (broadly xx12 from Edinburgh) and post evening peak (broadly x43 ex EDB) surely xx43 every hour off peak is easier to remember for passengers?
Agree with earlier comments about services that were reduced from half hourly to hourly in the evening due to Covid 19 should be restored to allow for viable evenings out.

 

[haggishunter]

Some gaps in Edinburgh to Aberdeen fast services standard pattern in both directions, why?

Timetable only shows ScotRail services - so LNER and XC services in these gaps?

Anyway still digesting the timetables and info - for most of the more rural routes it seems to be a holding pattern for now, however they would appear to imply that there will be no Sunday service for the North of Scotland as it says Sundays aren't included as there will be no change from current services - which is no service!

While this would upset those looking for the fastest end to end journey times on the Highland Main Line, there's a case to be made to strengthen public transport within the national parks and thus have every ScotRail service stop at ALL stations in the Cairngorms National Park.

North of Inverness there really needs to be an infrastructure investment project that can deliver sensible distribution of services for the inner Moray Firth rather than trains flighted all in one direction, sometimes 15mins apart only for there to be nothing the other direction for hours. Can't help but feel there must be a huge untapped modal shift potential here constrained by length of the single track to Muir of Ord.

 

[Class 170101]

Timetable only shows ScotRail services - so LNER and XC services in these gaps?

Hope you are right, it looks rather odd with those gaps.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Hope you are right, it looks rather odd with those gaps.

The ones missing are indeed the LNER services, 1028, 1428, 1835, 2034 - timings subject to minor timing changes on that route as a result of the new timetable there as well.

EDB-ABD or INV seem to have the same departure times on most occasions now, which schedules wise is fine but if it were implemented could confuse a few passengers.

 

[GALLANTON]

If I've read the timetable correctly, the Sunday service (currently suspended due to the strike action) on the Borders line is to be scrapped completely. This, the reduction in off-peak Monday-Friday services, and rumours that the current reduced level of service run by Borders Buses is set to become permanent, spells a very bleak future for Borders public transport - the only winners there will be car dealerships.

Or it could be an incentive for local bus operators to offer a viable alternative to these cuts to rail services.

 

[PaulMc7]

For me personally, I'm not really a big train user due to the bus being cheaper for most of the journeys I make. Some people won't go back to trains due to how they view Covid on top of every other factor that can affect patronage.

I'm not surprised by many of the new timetable suggestions to be honest. It was always going to happen with Abellio going next year. The government will want to run the cheapest network going and if passenger demand isn't there which it hasn't a lot of the time then it's down to the people to create it.

Price needs to be looked at it in a lot of cases too but I don't see it coming down much.

There's also been a lot of talks regarding driver shortages across social media and these forums for buses as well as trains. Hopefully this time next year it's not the case but while it is there's not really much that can be done. A lot of pain before a better network is hopefully what will happen but it's pain for now.

 

[gingerheid]

Even if we accept that some unwelcome stuff was going to happen, I don't think it should be this

I accept that some 4tphs could become 3tphs during the day without causing too much harm. At a push I might even accept that the population of Inverclyde is substantially lower than at other times when it had the previous service level.

If we accept that some commuting is never coming back then it seems like we should be trying harder to get the people that will still be travelling to work (which would mean running trains for more hours of the day to suit people going to places like hospitals and call centres with anti-social hours). It also seems like if commuting is going to be less the thing then there should be more emphasis on weekends (yeah, I know...) and evenings.

But 4tph to 2tph seems like going too far. And if you're only going to run an hourly service within the built up area of a city, or if you're only going to run 4.5 trains a day from Ayr to Kilmarnock, then a more honest approach would seem to be to admit that you're giving up and just not waste anyone's time (and I'm certainly not recommending that!).

It gets really bad when it puts holes into commuter flows, for example stations south of Kilmarnock are left with viable commuter services to... well... I guess any offices that are within Central Station or Union Street. Certainly not the universities or anything like that. Glasgow - Maybole is also out unless you trust them to make connections more than I do.

There are some individual really particularly oddly unnecessarily daft things in the timetables (2.5 hourish gaps in services with trains passing through). With my cynical hat on I'm wondering if they've done some of these deliberately so they can say "we listened and we made changes..."

If I was trying to sell this proposal to people I'd be saying "look I know it's not ideal, but what it does do is make capacity for possible future services to places like Beith, Grangemouth, Bridge of Weir..."

The future for Reston station of course continues to look ever more elephant shaped and ever whiter.

 

[alangla]

Looking at the Glasgow - Falkirk Grahamston via Cumbernauld, I have noticed that to Falkirk, there are no times in the row for Stepps, and in the Glasgow direction, there are no times at all in the row for Robroyston. See https://www.scotrail.co.uk/sites/de..._-_glasgow_-_falkirk_grahamston_timetable.pdf for details.

Was this an oversight, or is something more sinister going on?

Saw some comments on Twitter about this. The view there was that it hadn’t been proof read & there’s a typo in the Robroyston and Stepps entries. Bit of a kick in the teeth if you bought a new house near either station to commute to Edinburgh and the direct service has now evaporated. It took years to grow some of the traffic on A2B, looks like this route will never get the chance. I guess for those people it’ll be a drive up the M80 to Croy now.

The future for Reston station of course continues to look ever more elephant shaped and ever whiter.

Given the proposal is for Levenmouth to have 1TPH calling at every lamp post, you do wonder whether they might be just as well binning the whole thing & using the money elsewhere, or building it as single with provision for dualling.

 

[Jordan1296]

If I've read the timetable correctly, the Sunday service (currently suspended due to the strike action) on the Borders line is to be scrapped completely. This, the reduction in off-peak Monday-Friday services, and rumours that the current reduced level of service run by Borders Buses is set to become permanent, spells a very bleak future for Borders public transport - the only winners there will be car dealerships.

There are no Sunday timetables listed on any of the routes because ScotRail are not proposing to make major changes to Sunday services. Still, it would have been nice of them to include them.

 

[diamond chap]

Ayr gets 1tp2h fast again

Ayr services definately should be 4tph
Same with the E&G, which it gets back in peak times, however they should get rid of the Lenzie and Bishopbriggs stops

I don't think it does get 1tp2h fast. From Glasgow there's fasts at: 0830, 0900, 0932, 1000, 1030, 1200, 1530, 1629, 1734 and 1747. Bit of a gap from 1200 to 1530. Having additional fasts at 1130, 1230 (instead of 1200), 1330 and 1430 would provide a more sensible pattern at the expense of only three more round rrips.

 

[daodao]

The particularly striking feature of this change from a long-distance inter-city perspective is the diversion of Edinburgh-Inverness through trains via Stirling. This route was used following the closure of the direct main line via Kinross in January 1970. It became clear that the route via Striling lengthened the journey from Edinburgh to Perth/Inverness significantly, and under pressure BR re-opened the freight only Ladybank-Perth for use by these passenger trains.

Reversion to the Stirling route will add about 20 minutes to the journey time. For example, the evening train from Edinburgh to Inverness took 3h 19min in 2019 (Edinburgh dep 1742, Inverness arr 2101) compared to 3h 41min in the proposed 2022 timetable (Edinburgh dep 1733, Inverness arr 2114). This is a retrograde step.

This specific change involves a service re-routeing (IMO for the worse), rather than just a thinning of service frequency, as appears to be happening on most other routes. However, some lesser stations on the Glasgow-Aberdeen line gain a more frequent regular interval service (Gleneagles, Invergowrie, Broughty Ferry and Monifieth).

Any comments? As a foreigner, am I permitted to submitted any responses to this consultation?

 

[hexagon789]

As a foreigner, am I permitted to submitted any responses to this consultation?

I would adopt the attitude that unless it explicitly says you can't then by all means do respond. I don't see anything that says only those resident in Scotland.

Any comments?

For Edinburgh-Inverness or even Edinburgh-Perth journeys it does seem a retrograde step, but then for Edinburgh-Stirling which is apparently the main traffic flow of these three destinations it's an improvement - so swings and roundabouts really.

The decision to also slow the Edinburgh-Perth local service by running via Dunfermline does make the whole Edinburgh-Perth issue more acute, now neither route is anything even remotely fast.

I presume the re-routing of the Perth locals is a merger with a Fife Circle train and thus allowing the cut of one train service overall by merging the two?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I would adopt the attitude that unless it explicitly says you can't then by all means do respond. I don't see anything that says only those resident in Scotland.



For Edinburgh-Inverness or even Edinburgh-Perth journeys it does seem a retrograde step, but then for Edinburgh-Stirling which is apparently the main traffic flow of these three destinations it's an improvement - so swings and roundabouts really.

The decision to also slow the Edinburgh-Perth local service by running via Dunfermline does make the whole Edinburgh-Perth issue more acute, now neither route is anything even remotely fast.

I presume the re-routing of the Perth locals is a merger with a Fife Circle train and thus allowing the cut of one train service overall by merging the two?

Correct, Edinburgh to Perth is basically the combination of the hourly full western fife circle extended to Perth (and the relevant semi fast service to Perth cut) - which means Glenrothes WT platform 2 would see a regular hourly service (possibly for the first time ever?).

The remaining trains that terminate in Fife trains appear to be set up for Leven, in my view the Fife Circle was always one of those likely to go - even if it was busy.

 

[backontrack]

Does anyone have a link to the response form?