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Seemingly poor reliability of WCR 47's/57's compared to other fleets?

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47827

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There’s nothing wrong with the 67’s ETH: it’s poorly-maintained stock that is the problem with them.

A combination in some cases, but still making charter use iffy on air cons either way. The stock didn't help matters (I'll confirm that) but the eth system has proved too sensitive on longer rakes of air con stock (Inverness sleeper often being the most they could manage), even within the maximum index parameters. Can also recall Riv sets that were actually tested in front of me and found to be free of earth fault type issues that the 67s didn't like but the eth on the 67 simply not wanting to play ball because it was close to its limit. Once had 2 on 1 set like that so on came the Rolls Royce genny engine to save the day. With long rakes of air cons, unless you switch a number of vehicles on aux only and run them off batteries there's a high chance (about 50% on the data recorded at the time) you won't power anything above 9 or 10 vehicles consistently with any functioning 67. This was on the list of multiple reasons NB pulled the contract from DB at the end of 2010 (despite their stock being somewhat better maintained) and reverted to 47s via DRS. Recall being delayed leaving Crewe by nearly an hour en route Edinburgh and 1 of the 2 67s was being taken to go on 1 of the last DB hauled NB trains. No prizes for guessing what the original loco couldn't do on the Belle. The blame game never washed with passengers ensuring a reduced catering service, sweatbox or icebox experience on board.

RE 57/0s queried by the original poster. Those stored in worse condition typically, no ETH etc. 75mph can be resolved as per the WCRC examples but since they stopped doing the Scotsman, which uses in-house generator supply, there is little to put them on.
 
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There’s nothing wrong with the 67’s ETH: it’s poorly-maintained stock that is the problem with them.
Forgive me if I’m missing something, but if the 47’s can handle say 10 poorly maintained mk2’s for example and a 67 cannot the surely that’s a 67 issue? Why is ur that a 47 beats a 67 in terms of ETH delivery?
 

matchmaker

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Forgive me if I’m missing something, but if the 47’s can handle say 10 poorly maintained mk2’s for example and a 67 cannot the surely that’s a 67 issue? Why is ur that a 47 beats a 67 in terms of ETH delivery?
Both have the same ETS index of 66.
 

6Gman

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It's not that different to what you see in TOCs, where there's huge disparities between some TOCs operating identical fleets. For some time SWT/SWRs 159s were clocking up absolutely staggeringly good reliability figures, while other TOCs saw their 158s conk out all the time. It's not always entirely obvious why this is.
I think the issue around 158/159s was pretty straightforward.

SWT/SWR had a dedicated (purpose built?) maintenance facility at Salisbury with the fleet contained within a small area. Some other operators had their 158s scattered to the four winds.
 
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With long rakes of air cons, unless you switch a number of vehicles on aux only and run them off batteries there's a high chance (about 50% on the data recorded at the time) you won't power anything above 9 or 10 vehicles consistently with any functioning 67. This was on the list of multiple reasons NB pulled the contract from DB at the end of 2010 (despite their stock being somewhat better maintained) and reverted to 47s via DRS. Recall being delayed leaving Crewe by nearly an hour en route Edinburgh and 1 of the 2 67s was being taken to go on 1 of the last DB hauled NB trains. No prizes for guessing what the original loco couldn't do on the Belle. The blame game never washed with passengers ensuring a reduced catering service, sweatbox or icebox experience on board.
Not sure how many coaches the Northern Belle is these days but it’s coming down my way Friday so I will be able to see. I know it’s usually more than 10 so I can see where there would be an issue but I’m surprised that the 67’s have that much of an issue.

Out of interest, how many coaches were the 67’s originally built to haul? Obviously they would have been RM Parcel Trains, but it would be interesting to see if they’re over or under loaded on a rail tour with load 10 compared to the mail trains.
RE 57/0s queried by the original poster. Those stored in worse condition typically, no ETH etc. 75mph can be resolved as per the WCRC examples but since they stopped doing the Scotsman, which uses in-house generator supply, there is little to put them on.
I didn’t know that. When you say worse condition, I assume that they’re not to far gone to be brought back into service if required and if some money was thrown their way?

No ETH, that’s a bit of a pain. How hard/easy/possible is it to add ETS or is that just not going to happen unless they get really desperate?

Both have the same ETS index of 66.
Yes but others have said that a 47 will supply a longer train better than a 67, why is this? ETS Index doesn't come into it in this case.

I think the issue around 158/159s was pretty straightforward.

SWT/SWR had a dedicated (purpose built?) maintenance facility at Salisbury with the fleet contained within a small area. Some other operators had their 158s scattered to the four winds.
Few operators have such a privilage and it showed with SWT. How well did reliability hold up when it went to SWR and FirstGroup picked up the reins?
 
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Skymonster

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DRS are seemingly going to dispose of six or seven 57/0s in the not too distant future. Unfortunately they have not turned a wheel for six years and need significant cosmetic, structural and mechanical work if they are to see mainline service again. LSL would likely have the resources to get the jobs done, but with a 55 and a 45 on the way back, both involving huge amounts of work, and with the 47s currently behaving fairly well, does it need 57s? WCRC has two 57/0s that “work” and another that hasn’t since it was acquired from Advenza a good few years ago, as well as four 57/3s and 601. I suspect the prizes would be the remaining 57/3s but DRS and ROG seem to be hanging onto those.
 

47827

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Not sure how many coaches the Northern Belle is these days but it’s coming down my way Friday so I will be able to see. I know it’s usually more than 10 so I can see where there would be an issue but I’m surprised that the 67’s have that much of an issue.

Out of interest, how many coaches were the 67’s originally built to haul? Obviously they would have been RM Parcel Trains, but it would be interesting to see if they’re over or under loaded on a rail tour with load 10 compared to the mail trains.

I didn’t know that. When you say worse condition, I assume that they’re not to far gone to be brought back into service if required and if some money was thrown their way?

No ETH, that’s a bit of a pain. How hard/easy/possible is it to add ETS or is that just not going to happen unless they get really desperate?


Yes but others have said that a 47 will supply a longer train better than a 67, why is this? ETS Index doesn't come into it in this case.


Few operators have such a privilage and it showed with SWT. How well did reliability hold up when it went to SWR and FirstGroup picked up the reins?

On paper the 67s can do all the stuff they are meant to in terms of heating or powering an air con set (the index is the same as a 47 after all). What happens in practice though isn't always the same. The software on them is designed to protect the loco but it can be prone to over assessing the risk of damage one could argue. If you own air con charter carriages, as a few companies do (regardless of whether it was the stock's fault or the loco's fault) plugging in a 67 will often kill MA sets, the expensive kit older air con stock is fitted with to control the power the goes through them (I'm not a tech expert so please don't ask for explanations of how that works). I do know that Riv and Cargo D, taking blame out of it, used to lose a lot more of those expensive to repair or replace pieces of kit when regularly plugging in 67s than older traction or a genny car as I once regularly spoke to people having to pick up the pieces. When one sits down and needs repairing the best you can do is strain neighbouring coaches and jump them with patch leads to try and rob a source of control over the power supply so they function. It's far from any good and you need suitable sidings or often a block on the line next to you to undertake the process. Neither is always quickly available and even if that sort of temporary fix can be undertaken you still risk blowing up the one next door by overloading it. People have been baffled by these things over the years but Jo public couldn't care less about why their set or carriage isn't fit for use if they are stuck sat in it for hours or whether it's the stock owner, loco owner, both or just bad luck. Ultimately the person taking the fare, or indeed other ones organising the trips in the future will take the consequences the most.

RE 57s. We would have seen the /0s fitted with ETH now if it was viable to do so. I think it would only be considered as a last resort. More likely any re-useable components will be removed such as bogies or wheelsets and an odd one sold for reuse but some getting put out of their misery. As I posted several weeks ago somewhere else the original Freightliner batch are the least use and were not a roaring success, more a stop gap, hence why they went as soon as it was possible.
 
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DRS are seemingly going to dispose of six or seven 57/0s in the not too distant future. Unfortunately they have not turned a wheel for six years and need significant cosmetic, structural and mechanical work if they are to see mainline service again. LSL would likely have the resources to get the jobs done, but with a 55 and a 45 on the way back, both involving huge amounts of work, and with the 47s currently behaving fairly well, does it need 57s? WCRC has two 57/0s that “work” and another that hasn’t since it was acquired from Advenza a good few years ago, as well as four 57/3s and 601. I suspect the prizes would be the remaining 57/3s but DRS and ROG seem to be hanging onto those.
6 years is a long time to sit still, especially if it has been cold storage instead of warm, which I assume they have. Is the class 55 and class 45 thing definitely happening? I didn't know about that but it's good to know that they will be back after D9009's disaster a few years back. A Class 40 and 45 would make a nice doubleheading.

I assume that ROG are holding onto their 57's until the 93's are delivered and settled into service? Only then will consider off loading them to who ever wants them.

On paper the 67s can do all the stuff they are meant to in terms of heating or powering an air con set (the index is the same as a 47 after all). What happens in practice though isn't always the same. The software on them is designed to protect the loco but it can be prone to over assessing the risk of damage one could argue. If you own air con charter carriages, as a few companies do (regardless of whether it was the stock's fault or the loco's fault) plugging in a 67 will often kill MA sets, the expensive kit older air con stock is fitted with to control the power the goes through them (I'm not a tech expert so please don't ask for explanations of how that works). I do know that Riv and Cargo D, taking blame out of it, used to lose a lot more of those expensive to repair or replace pieces of kit when regularly plugging in 67s than older traction or a genny car as I once regularly spoke to people having to pick up the pieces. When one sits down and needs repairing the best you can do is strain neighbouring coaches and jump them with patch leads to try and rob a source of control over the power supply so they function. It's far from any good and you need suitable sidings or often a block on the line next to you to undertake the process. Neither is always quickly available and even if that sort of temporary fix can be undertaken you still risk blowing up the one next door by overloading it. People have been baffled by these things over the years but Jo public couldn't care less about why their set or carriage isn't fit for use if they are stuck sat in it for hours or whether it's the stock owner, loco owner, both or just bad luck. Ultimately the person taking the fare, or indeed other ones organising the trips in the future will take the consequences the most.

RE 57s. We would have seen the /0s fitted with ETH now if it was viable to do so. I think it would only be considered as a last resort. More likely any re-useable components will be removed such as bogies or wheelsets and an odd one sold for reuse but some getting put out of their misery. As I posted several weeks ago somewhere else the original Freightliner batch are the least use and were not a roaring success, more a stop gap, hence why they went as soon as it was possible.
Ah right, that makes sense on the 67 front. They're fairly rare down this way and they only really seem to be down this way on the British Pullman and everytime they seem to do an okay job, but I notice that they're always double headed over the SDB which makes sense given their poor TE.

So the 57/0's are likely going to be parts donors to their healthier class mates? Seems like fairly standard practice for an ageing fleet.
 

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I assume that ROG are holding onto their 57's until the 93's are delivered and settled into service? Only then will consider off loading them to who ever wants them.
ROG's 57s are sub-leased from DRS, who in turn lease them from Porterbrook. So ROG have no say in what happens to them.
 

47827

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6 years is a long time to sit still, especially if it has been cold storage instead of warm, which I assume they have. Is the class 55 and class 45 thing definitely happening? I didn't know about that but it's good to know that they will be back after D9009's disaster a few years back. A Class 40 and 45 would make a nice doubleheading.

I assume that ROG are holding onto their 57's until the 93's are delivered and settled into service? Only then will consider off loading them to who ever wants them.


Ah right, that makes sense on the 67 front. They're fairly rare down this way and they only really seem to be down this way on the British Pullman and everytime they seem to do an okay job, but I notice that they're always double headed over the SDB which makes sense given their poor TE.

So the 57/0's are likely going to be parts donors to their healthier class mates? Seems like fairly standard practice for an ageing fleet.

Just a guess RE the 57/0s really as I lack a crystal ball sadly and am not party to whether any confidential discussions regarding their future are ongoing. From what I can see DRS never really got much of a return off them compared with most of the older fleet. Only the DRS 47s were sometimes even more sporadically used over the decade and a bit they had them. More on the original topic, I'd say their 47s were somewhat a hit and miss fleet and with some locos never generating much of a return based on the amounts ploughed into them to mostly sit about. That said, officially they were also classed as part of the large contingency for the fleet funded by the more highly paid nuclear work so the budget to keep them was legit in accounting terms.
 
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Just a guess RE the 57/0s really as I lack a crystal ball sadly and am not party to whether any confidential discussions regarding their future are ongoing. From what I can see DRS never really got much of a return off them compared with most of the older fleet. Only the DRS 47s were sometimes even more sporadically used over the decade and a bit they had them. More on the original topic, I'd say their 47s were somewhat a hit and miss fleet and with some locos never generating much of a return based on the amounts ploughed into them to mostly sit about. That said, officially they were also classed as part of the large contingency for the fleet funded by the more highly paid nuclear work so the budget to keep them was legit in accounting terms.
It’s a shame the 57/0 were left to deteriorate. Are DRS’s 57’s surplus to requirement are are they used regularly?

The class 93 will free up some 57’s from ROG so as you say, expect them to be snapped up quick. I assume that ROG 57’s are in decent condition and wouldn’t need work before being out into traffic?
 

47827

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It’s a shame the 57/0 were left to deteriorate. Are DRS’s 57’s surplus to requirement are are they used regularly?

The class 93 will free up some 57’s from ROG so as you say, expect them to be snapped up quick. I assume that ROG 57’s are in decent condition and wouldn’t need work before being out into traffic?

ROG's leased 57s are all currently in active condition barring any that might be stopped for repairs or maintenance briefly. So unless anything big goes bang on one we can assume DRS may want new homes for them after the lease. In fact, I believe they have a 5th one due in the fleet from DRS shortly. With a small fleet of ex Anglia and TFW mk3 stock needing running up every week for hire on charters etc that will be handy for them.

It's a shame about the 57/0 fleet in a sense if you look at them as business assets but as a former big follower/fan of their previous incarnations pre conversion I can't mourn their loss overly even if they are tools for a job.
 
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ROG's leased 57s are all currently in active condition barring any that might be stopped for repairs or maintenance briefly. So unless anything big goes bang on one we can assume DRS may want new homes for them after the lease. In fact, I believe they have a 5th one due in the fleet from DRS shortly. With a small fleet of ex Anglia and TFW mk3 stock needing running up every week for hire on charters etc that will be handy for them.

It's a shame about the 57/0 fleet in a sense if you look at them as business assets but as a former big follower/fan of their previous incarnations pre conversion I can't mourn their loss overly even if they are tools for a job.
Good that they’re in good condition, it’s always a shame to see good locos go to waste. What’s this about ex Anglia and TFW stock needing running? I haven’t heard anything about this I don’t think.

I had guessed you like the 47’s, hence the name. Amazes me that a company like DRS can justify letting locos which they have paid for just rot. If you have 5 locos spare either get some work for them or sell them now, don’t wait 5 years and let them rot to then sell them for significantly less than what you could have done. Seems very odd to me, but maybe I’m missing something.

As a huge fan of 47’s myself, I will agree that the 57’s just done really do it for me, they aren’t the same (obviously).
 

Wolfie

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We will see the situation in 15 years time when the 47’s are piles of rust. 47’s are the only option for LSL, in terms of diesels at least. What else can they do? 37’s not suitable, 66’s not suitable, 67’s not suitable, 57’s basically 47’s maybe a bit better, not enough 50’s and HST power cars just wouldn’t work. There isn’t a lot of options for diesel locos about, no matter how you look at it.
May be stupid but would 58s brought back from overseas be an option?
 

JonathanH

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What’s this about ex Anglia and TFW stock needing running? I haven’t heard anything about this I don’t think.
ROG's ex-Anglia / ATW Mark 3 stock has been used for a few tours - there was a trip from Lichfield to Buxton in July https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lichfield-to-the-dales-last-sunday.220120/ and the recent Retro Railtour from Chesterfield to the Cumbrian Coast https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/retro-railtours-cumbrian-coaster-ii-28-8-21.221590/. The stock gets another trip out for the Barrow Hill Beer Festival shuttles next week but quite how much the market extends beyond that isn't so clear. They certainly aren't going to need running up every week.
 
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May be stupid but would 58s brought back from overseas be an option?
I don’t know, probably not. I think 5 are preserved and 36 are in either France or Spain but I have no idea as to their condition or what terms they’re under.

Unless anyone says anything otherwise, I would assume that they’re not simply because 1) they aren’t over here 2) they are very big hefty locos and their condition might be questionable and 3) I don’t think they have ECS which puts them in the same situation as Class 57/0’s.

ROG's ex-Anglia / ATW Mark 3 stock has been used for a few tours - there was a trip from Lichfield to Buxton in July https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lichfield-to-the-dales-last-sunday.220120/ and the recent Retro Railtour from Chesterfield to the Cumbrian Coast https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/retro-railtours-cumbrian-coaster-ii-28-8-21.221590/. The stock gets another trip out for the Barrow Hill Beer Festival shuttles next week but quite how much the market extends beyond that isn't so clear. They certainly aren't going to need running up every week.
Ah okay, well it’s good to see that there is a bit of work about for them. Can’t do coach bearings much good being sat still for weeks, run like hell for a few hours and then left for weeks.
 

47827

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Good that they’re in good condition, it’s always a shame to see good locos go to waste. What’s this about ex Anglia and TFW stock needing running? I haven’t heard anything about this I don’t think.

I had guessed you like the 47’s, hence the name. Amazes me that a company like DRS can justify letting locos which they have paid for just rot. If you have 5 locos spare either get some work for them or sell them now, don’t wait 5 years and let them rot to then sell them for significantly less than what you could have done. Seems very odd to me, but maybe I’m missing something.

As a huge fan of 47’s myself, I will agree that the 57’s just done really do it for me, they aren’t the same (obviously).

In your comments about the DRS 47s, that's exactly what they did do. The accountants tightened their belts and their then MD who had not long come into power (who I saw at a funeral in 2019) decided they were to be dispensed of as the lesser used assets of a under utilised fleet. Most of the 57/0s went shortly after with a few returning for bouts of service and an one surviving for normal work up to now. In fact to see off the last few DRS 47s it was sanctioned for favourable terms to be given to the Greater Anglia franchise to retrain all their drivers on 37s (although an odd one did in their spare time), with expensive rewiring of the mk2s for the through multi working of t'n't 37s. For several years after DRS got that contract it had justified retention of a few 47s on top of any other miscellaneous stuff they could be deployed on such as charters. The 37s then went on to see 3 or 4 years use after a few stays of execution. Ultimately though with 68s needing more work they became the charter class although their MD became lukewarm to passenger work and charters post Northern Belle being sold to a team including the WCRC MD. A far cry from the Bush and McNicholas era which some folk like to see as the DRS trainset period (although the company did actually make a profit back then and I imagine still does). Ironic who then turned up to help Mr Hosking spend the cash at LSL. Impressive results though either way in terms of how the product looks.
 
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In your comments about the DRS 47s, that's exactly what they did do. The accountants tightened their belts and their then MD who had not long come into power (who I saw at a funeral in 2019) decided they were to be dispensed of as the lesser used assets of a under utilised fleet. Most of the 57/0s went shortly after with a few returning for bouts of service and an one surviving for normal work up to now. In fact to see off the last few DRS 47s it was sanctioned for favourable terms to be given to the Greater Anglia franchise to retrain all their drivers on 37s (although an odd one did in their spare time), with expensive rewiring of the mk2s for the through multi working of t'n't 37s. For several years after DRS got that contract it had justified retention of a few 47s on top of any other miscellaneous stuff they could be deployed on such as charters. The 37s then went on to see 3 or 4 years use after a few stays of execution. Ultimately though with 68s needing more work they became the charter class although their MD became lukewarm to passenger work and charters post Northern Belle being sold to a team including the WCRC MD. A far cry from the Bush and McNicholas era which some folk like to see as the DRS trainset period (although the company did actually make a profit back then and I imagine still does). Ironic who then turned up to help Mr Hosking spend the cash at LSL. Impressive results though either way in terms of how the product looks.
Makes sense to dispose of them if they’re costing you money and you have no use for them.

Which product are you on about? Sorry you have lost me with the story.

Has any thought been put into taking on/reactivating some class 37's? We have discussed their issues when compared to 47's but surely they must be some use for them?
 
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47827

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Makes sense to dispose of them if they’re costing you money and you have no use for them.

Which product are you on about? Sorry you have lost me with the story.

Has any thought been put into taking on/reactivating some class 37's? We have discussed their issues when compared to 47's but surely they must be some use for them?

Quite a few 37s were already reactivated in the past and they are popular with Network Rail via Colas (presently) for the track/infrastructure monitoring work with lower running costs than a type 4 and those trains being short formations. Very few fitted with train heat supply (just 37/4s of which some are scrapped) and those concerned only capable of heating about half an average mk2 air con charter set or about 9 mk1s so you won't see many feature other than on trains not requiring heating in the summer or fitted with a generator car. LSL, WCRC and DRS all still provide them on charters occasionally but not generally as the staple option of course given their lower haulage capability of a single loco, 80mph operating speed and lack of any/meaningful train heating options.
 

DBS92042

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I think a lot of them were cut up in 2019.
Just the Spanish ones. The ones stored at Alizay still exist but have been stripped of most valuable parts over the years and most of them will likely never run again
 
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I think a lot of them were cut up in 2019.
I think that only the Spanish ones were cut up in 2019. I'm sure the ones that are stored are still around, but I doubt that they're anywhere near serviceable.
Quite a few 37s were already reactivated in the past and they are popular with Network Rail via Colas (presently) for the track/infrastructure monitoring work with lower running costs than a type 4 and those trains being short formations. Very few fitted with train heat supply (just 37/4s of which some are scrapped) and those concerned only capable of heating about half an average mk2 air con charter set or about 9 mk1s so you won't see many feature other than on trains not requiring heating in the summer or fitted with a generator car. LSL, WCRC and DRS all still provide them on charters occasionally but not generally as the staple option of course given their lower haulage capability of a single loco, 80mph operating speed and lack of any/meaningful train heating options.
I notice that when provided they're usually always doubled headed most likely for the reasons you have mentioned (ETS and also outright horsepower). They're becoming increasingly rare on charters which is a shame but at same time it gives the 47's more work and that's always a good thing.
 

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I think that only the Spanish ones were cut up in 2019. I'm sure the ones that are stored are still around, but I doubt that they're anywhere near serviceable.

I notice that when provided they're usually always doubled headed most likely for the reasons you have mentioned (ETS and also outright horsepower). They're becoming increasingly rare on charters which is a shame but at same time it gives the 47's more work and that's always a good thing.

They are "advertised" in advance more on charters a bit more than 47s. Most charters using 47s are ones with no advertised traction so it's guess work or in the case of WCRC jobs either them or 57s. Statesman are generally the safest to book in advance for 47s now. Although they are at best lukewarm if they think you are an enthusiast and have been since their original incarnation in 2008.

37s are never paired up to increase ETH capability as unfortunately the wiring only allows one 37/4 at a time to provide supply to the train so for most charters a generator car or ETH fitted loco with a higher index (say 66 or above like a 47/57/68) has to be in the consist or a Mk1 set with reliance on nice weather.
 
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They are "advertised" in advance more on charters a bit more than 47s. Most charters using 47s are ones with no advertised traction so it's guess work or in the case of WCRC jobs either them or 57s. Statesman are generally the safest to book in advance for 47s now. Although they are at best lukewarm if they think you are an enthusiast and have been since their original incarnation in 2008.

37s are never paired up to increase ETH capability as unfortunately the wiring only allows one 37/4 at a time to provide supply to the train so for most charters a generator car or ETH fitted loco with a higher index (say 66 or above like a 47/57/68) has to be in the consist or a Mk1 set with reliance on nice weather.
I agree on the Stateman front as down this way it always is, without fail. The Cornish Riviera, Dartmouth Regatta and Torbay Riviera statemans have all be 2x47's.

I didn't know that about the 37/4's not being capable of doubling up ETH capacity. Generator cars sound like they could be a pain. How many are floating around these days? I assume that that's what steam only rail tours use like the Royal Duchy etc?
 

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I agree on the Stateman front as down this way it always is, without fail. The Cornish Riviera, Dartmouth Regatta and Torbay Riviera statemans have all be 2x47's.

I didn't know that about the 37/4's not being capable of doubling up ETH capacity. Generator cars sound like they could be a pain. How many are floating around these days? I assume that that's what steam only rail tours use like the Royal Duchy etc?

Off the top of my head it's probably between 6 and 8 that work for the mainline but that's split between multiple companies with Riviera having 3 of whatever is left. LSL and WCRC have at least 1 each that work.
 
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Off the top of my head it's probably been 6 and 8 that work for the mainline but that's split between multiple companies with Riviera having 3 of whatever is left. LSL and WCRC have at least 1 each that work.
So not many then by the time you consider time out for maintenance, breakdowns ETC.

Any idea where I can get the specs for these things? They must be fair lumps to drag about.
 

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So not many then by the time you consider time out for maintenance, breakdowns ETC.

Any idea where I can get the specs for these things? They must be fair lumps to drag about.

I don't know re: the specs for them although you could try rolling stock websites.

A few of them also suffer reliability issues too, although the Riviera ex Royal Train mk2 was largely better than the 67s even though it required spanner attention regularly. Think its had a lot of attention in recent years so hopefully works better now. The WCRC one sees little use and it didn't like looking after 11 neighbouring air cons on the occasion I've been out with it. Needed some makeshift wiring repairs over the day to reset it to start up again after spending much of the day shut down.
 
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I don't know re: the specs for them although you could try rolling stock websites.

A few of them also suffer reliability issues too, although the Riviera ex Royal Train mk2 was largely better than the 67s even though it required spanner attention regularly. Think its had a lot of attention in recent years so hopefully works better now. The WCRC one sees little use and it didn't like looking after 11 neighbouring air cons on the occasion I've been out with it. Needed some makeshift wiring repairs over the day to reset it to start up again after spending much of the day shut down.
If they aren't in regular use then WCRC and other operators should expect problems. Machinery needs to be worked else it will just sit and get wose.

What ETH index are these generator vans, do you know? Would assume it's enough for say 11+12 air-con coaches, even if the one you were on was having trouble?

@47827

I have a quesion regarding supplying ETS when double headed. Does the rear loco in the double headed formation have to be the one supplying the ETS or can the front one do it via the rear one? I ask because if the rear most loco fails then can the front one still provide ETS through the dead loco?
 
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47827

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Joined
3 Mar 2020
Messages
591
Location
Middleport
If they aren't in regular use then WCRC and other operators should expect problems. Machinery needs to be worked else it will just sit and get wose.

What ETH index are these generator vans, do you know? Would assume it's enough for say 11+12 air-con coaches, even if the one you were on was having trouble?

@47827

I have a quesion regarding supplying ETS when double headed. Does the rear loco in the double headed formation have to be the one supplying the ETS or can the front one do it via the rear one? I ask because if the rear most loco fails then can the front one still provide ETS through the dead loco?

The generator cars I've come across can all look after at least 12 adjacent air cons. Can't recall their indexes though. And capability may vary between individual vehicles. I'm sure I heard at least an odd one still used was once on the jumbo Scotrail sleepers in the early to mid 90s with 37s which had numerous high index Mk3s plus some catering in the lounge cars.

In a double header, so long as there is no wiring fault the general rule is that either loco can provide the eth if all is working as it should be. Can't think of any classes where it doesn't apply. 31/4s, 37/4s, eth 47s etc all OK among those I can think of. If you run top and tailed you can also split the eth cables in the middle of the set and have an eth loco on either end powering part of the formation. Useful if there's a wiring fault between just 2 coaches or as per 67s dragging sleepers a few decades ago would mean you could provide more power using that method. Recall many a charter with the wiring fault issue between 2 air cons sorted that way.
 
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