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Brissle Girl

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that is the wording used in a contract I used to have, maybe once you are aware that you are to be prosecuted would be a better way fo putting it though I cannot imagine how that would be worded in a contract.
When I raised the point I specifically said "do check the wording". There's no point us debating what it might be, what we might expect it to be, or what we might have seen in our own employment. Only the OP and daughter can check what is actually the obligation, and that was my advice.
 
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011976091

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To the contra
I think you have indicated that you do "have the clout" as a settlement is not likely to be as large as you seem to think. When the time comes and you respond to the train company's letter, state that you would like to settle the matter and cover their costs, but do not suggest an amount - the train company, if they are minded to go down that route, will suggest an amount in their response. Previous threads here indicate the amount is likely to be in the region of £120 - £200 plus the fares owed.
To the contrary, I stated we lack the funds for a significant settlement. But, thank you for your post. It is some hope that she can admit the stupidity and show remorse in order to avoid a conviction.
 

221129

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Can I just ask, you have ‘seen worse’ that did not end in a prosecution?
Much worse has been settled out of court. However much less has resulted in a conviction in court. However in my experience, as long as your daughter hasn't come to their attention previously then there is a better chance that you can settle it.
 

011976091

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I know is a way off and we have not heard from the rail company but here is a draft letter. Any pointers would be appreciated:

Dear XXX

Thank you for your letter dated xx/xx. I have no defence for the allegation you have stated. I made a foolish error of judgement in a time of financial worry. I had been traveling from XXXX as I had been living in temporary rental accommodation. I made a poor and stupid decision to purchase the wrong ticket. I honestly had no idea how serious this was nor any thought for the consequences. Furthermore, I did not consider the impact of lost revenue on the rail company.

I complied with the revenue protection officer and answered all the questions he put to me. I did not attempt to hide my dishonesty. In terms on the number of offences I believe I stated four or five. I was unable to think clearly and thought it better to overestimate rather than underestimate as the latter would look much, much worse later on. Having thoroughly checked my records I am sure there to be three instances on xx/xx, xx/xx and xx/xx. I will be happy to share this information with you if you so wish.

I would like to find a way to settle this matter without the need for a court appearance where I am sure I would face a conviction. In the event I were to receive a criminal record and, given the nature of the role as a staff nurse in the NHS I would lose my job and, I fear I would be unemployable thereafter.

I have no previous convictions nor have I ever been cautioned the police. I am truly sorry for my actions and am now fully aware of the consequences. I can assure you I will never attempt anything like this again. If this matter can be settled, I am willing to pay any administration charges for the investigation, the lost revenue and any fine you see fit.

Once again, I am very sorry and I hope that you believe I have learned my lesson.



Yours faithfully

Miss XXX
 

WesternLancer

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Can I just ask, you have ‘seen worse’ that did not end in a prosecution?

221229 makes a good point in post #33

What I meant was cases on here where people have put head in sand, ignored things, then gone to court, been found guilty then regretted not engaging / given false addresses and realised that this makes things worse / been found out anyway / pleaded guilty to 'simplify' dealing with system when they then felt they were not really guilty of what they had been accused of / thought they were 'appealing' when they were not on basis of a phone call only, then next funding out it had gone to court and they were found guilty / disproportionately harsh interpretations of ticket validity )or even plain wrong ones (Cross Country Trains enforcement agent comes to mind).

So not things like yours where you are seeking to engage.

There are clearly people for whom ignoring and leaving it to court (and then ignoring or evading that and it's associated penalty enforcement) must be seen as a better option than engaging. I suspect they do not have employment related aspects that they are worried about.

Those were the sort of things I was alluding to.

Your draft letter:
Yes, seems the sort of thing to write, others will also have thoughts.

One thing tho where you say " any fine you see fit " I would be cautious, since in literal (albeit unlikely in reality) terms you would not be prepared to pay "any" fine that the Train Company sees fit would you? eg £1,000 / £10,000 / £1m ? Now I doubt they would see fit to fine those sums, but if they did would your daughter be willing to pay, for example £1m? If not, don't use that phrase unless you mean it.
Minor point. You could adjust it to say something like "an associated, proportionate penalty" or some such better phrase maybe.
Also, I can't recall if such settlements instead of court action include penalties / fines as well as costs and lost revenue.

Also - when estimating the lost revenue, I suspect the railway prices that at the most expensive ticket type - eg the Anytime Fare (rather than say the off peak price) - ie if the trip was from A to D, and the ticket held was from A to B, it's the Anytime fare from B to D that might be regarded as the lost revenue. But no doubt they will spell that out if they responded positively to your letter in due course.
 

Llanigraham

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I would suggest that this paragraph would be better as:

""I have no previous convictions nor have I ever been cautioned the police. I am truly sorry for my actions and am now fully aware of the consequences. I can assure you I will never attempt anything like this again. If this matter can be settled, I am willing to pay any administration charges for the investigation, AND TO COVER the lost revenue and any fine you see fit.""

It isn't a fine, since they are issued by Courts.
 

WesternLancer

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Thank you Llanigraham & WesternLancer for your suggestions.
don't know if you want to edit your draft above (with the nature of employment details for example) and any other details that may link your daughter to the posts in the event of someone dealing with this case from the prosecuting team making the links between this thread and he case they are dealing with. I don't know if any value from that but it is occasionally suggested on here that such staff do keep an eye on these threads.
 

30907

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Again, thank you. I have removed the detail.
I suggest you also remove the line:
I have no previous convictions nor have I ever been cautioned the police.
Yes, it is true, but something like "apart from the occasions I have admitted above, I have never attempted to evade a fare" is more relevant to the situation.

Also, in case it hasn't been mentioned upthread, if the letter you eventually receive mentions only one occasion, adapt the reply accordingly. There is no need for your daughterdaughter to incriminate herself.
 
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011976091

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Would anyone know how long it take for the rail company to get in touch? It has been a little over six weeks now.

Thank you
 

WesternLancer

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Would anyone know how long it take for the rail company to get in touch? It has been a little over six weeks now.

Thank you
It can be pretty slow sometimes it seems. They would seek to act within 6 months.

Presumably you are as sure as you can be they have the correct address details for the case? Your daughter was honest about her address, and did she have the chance to check that it was written down correctly and readably so that when the info is passed up to the Revenue Protection office team for action they can then write to the correct address?

Not sure if you detailed the station where she was questioned / which train company's staff questioned her? (apols, I've not checked back through the thread). If you can say that then people here may have some familiarity as to whether that train company has a reputation for speedily dealing with cases or not.

EDIT - apols, I see your OP mentioned 'southern' - just to be clear do you mean a Southern terminal station in London? EG Victoria or London Bridge? I think they also have South Eastern Trains staff operating in parts of those stations (I think London Bridge is perhaps predominantly SE Trains staffed), do you know by any chance who the staff worked for who stopped and interviewed your daughter?
 
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011976091

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It can be pretty slow sometimes it seems. They would seek to act within 6 months.

Presumably you are as sure as you can be they have the correct address details for the case? Your daughter was honest about her address, and did she have the chance to check that it was written down correctly and readably so that when the info is passed up to the Revenue Protection office team for action they can then write to the correct address?

Not sure if you detailed the station where she was questioned / which train company's staff questioned her? (apols, I've not checked back through the thread). If you can say that then people here may have some familiarity as to whether that train company has a reputation for speedily dealing with cases or not.
It was Victoria. Southern staff I believe.
 

WesternLancer

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It was Victoria. Southern staff I believe. First week of September.
OK thanks. Hopefully people here will have an idea on how speedy Southern are, and who carries out their revenue protection follow up work.
 

Haywain

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OK thanks. Hopefully people here will have an idea on how speedy Southern are, and who carries out their revenue protection follow up work.
Southern is part of GTR and, based on previous threads, they seem to handle these matters internally.
 

011976091

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Hello, My daughter received a letter asking for details. She replied with the admitting the fault and asked for an OOC. The company have written to say they will proceed with the case. We have tried to call the numbers but there is no reply due to COVD. Any advice welcome.

Thank you.
 

WesternLancer

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Hello, My daughter received a letter asking for details. She replied with the admitting the fault and asked for an OOC. The company have written to say they will proceed with the case. We have tried to call the numbers but there is no reply due to COVD. Any advice welcome.

Thank you.
Probably urgent need for her to talk to her Union (or equiv) rep and /or professional body at work in the NHS so see how to prevent risk of the job loss you mentioned in your OP if case went to court.

Hopefully others can also add advice, but it may be that she needs to get legal advice now, if not already done. That may be accessible via the Union at free or low cost rate.
 

011976091

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Probably urgent need for her to talk to her Union (or equiv) rep at work in the NHS so see how to prevent risk of the job loss you mentioned in your OP if case went to court.

Hopefully others can also add advice, but it may be that she needs to get legal advice now, if not already done. That may be accessible via the Union at free or low cost rate.
Does anyone know of a good solicitor in this area?
 

WesternLancer

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Does anyone know of a good solicitor in this area?
I think one or two have been mentioned on this forum before, hopefully someone will post soon with info as I can't recall the firms concerned at this stage.
 

Haywain

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Hello, My daughter received a letter asking for details. She replied with the admitting the fault and asked for an OOC. The company have written to say they will proceed with the case. We have tried to call the numbers but there is no reply due to COVD. Any advice welcome.

Thank you.
You can write and ask again, this is not the end of the road. Was the letter from Southern/GTR or from a third party?
 

Haywain

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Both letters were from Govia Prosecutions Department.
Thanks. Probably worth writing again then. As for a solicitor, most trade unions can provide legal assistance for their members so that is a good place to start. You really don't need a specialist just a criminal defence solicitor but you have to take into account that if this does go to court the result is likely to be a guilty verdict.
 

011976091

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Thanks. Probably worth writing again then. As for a solicitor, most trade unions can provide legal assistance for their members so that is a good place to start. You really don't need a specialist just a criminal defence solicitor but you have to take into account that if this does go to court the result is likely to be a guilty verdict.
Thank you. search on the internet.
 

WesternLancer

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Thank you. I will search on the internet.
Ah yes, I found the mention now - made by @yorkie as per this:

"I recommend Penman Sedgwick based purely on the experience of other forum members. I have no connection with this company and have not met them personally."

So they might be worth a try if you are searching for a firm.

Haywain's idea of writing again also seems worthwhile (can't be any harm). Again impressing severe remorse, a promise not to evade payment of fares again, and a desire to make amends via a settlement without going to court.

And of course the check with union or staff professional body both for potential help and to understand the consequences with regard to work.

Good luck with this.
 

011976091

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Ah yes, I found the mention now - made by @yorkie as per this:

"I recommend Penman Sedgwick based purely on the experience of other forum members. I have no connection with this company and have not met them personally."

So they might be worth a try if you are searching for a firm.

Haywain's idea of writing again also seems worthwhile (can't be any harm). Again impressing severe remorse, a promise not to evade payment of fares again, and a desire to make amends via a settlement without going to court.

And of course the check with union or staff professional body both for potential help and to understand the consequences with regard to work.

Good luck with this.
Thank you.
 

Haywain

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Thank you.


Sadly not
Be aware that the firm suggested above will likely be expensive and in no position to secure a not guilty verdict based on what we know already, namely that:
She confessed and owned up to the detaining officer at the southern barrier and admitted she intentionally tried to avoid the fares.
A settlement can be obtained right up to the point of going into the court room and you might be best just approaching the prosecutor on the day to ask about a settlement if it gets as far as court. As with another letter, you have nothing to lose.
 

WesternLancer

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Thank you.


Sadly not
@Haywain makes a good point about cost. It may be that you should also contact some local to you criminal defence solicitors to see what costs they offer by comparison. (Edit: useful link posted below in thread on easy way to search for them)

Given what you have mentioned ref impact of court case on work/dismissal for your daughter I think you and she need to be sure of this given the trade off concerned if it goes to court and she is found guilty - which is likely, as others mentioned. Such an outcome may result in lower cost (fine etc), plus record - possibly lower cost, even than the train company may settle out of court, but of course if the consequences are a loss of job and the income from that, then a decision to pay a specialist solicitor in the hope they can mitigate it may be considered worth the expenditure.

Discussion with Union, professional body and even HR to be clear about that will thus be important. A good HR person should be able to advise confidentially, unless they are bound to suspend you just for raising the possibility. After all this is a train fare evasion case, not admitting to them medical negligence or theft from employer or some such.
 
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