Should Every Station (& every Platform) Have a Ticket Machine?

[Llandudno]

To try and standardise Penalty Fare penalties and reduce ticketless travel should every station in the country have a ticket machine?

In fact to go a stage further should every platform, or maybe every entrance to the station have a ticket machine, so that every passenger has to walk past one to get to the platform.

There are numerous stations where you have to cross over to the opposite platform to buy a ticket, there may a small queue and then you have to cross back to your platform for the train, with a possibility that you could miss it.

Does anyone have any idea how much these machines cost to install and their annual running/maintenance costs. Could the extra revenue produced more than cover the costs of installation?

I appreciate that were will be some daft places to have a ticket machine such as Berney Arms, Denton, Reddish South, Sugar Loaf etc, but if you are going to roll it out network wide...

 

[etr221]

The railway places an obligation on every passenger to buy a ticket "no excuses".

There is a corresponding obligation on the railway to sell every passenger a ticket.

So yes, between every station entrance and every train, there should provision for the passenger to buy a ticket - either from a machine, or a ticket office, with modes of payment as advetised, which include cash and RTV. Or there is an excuse for the passenger not to do so.

 

[packermac]

The railway places an obligation on every passenger to buy a ticket "no excuses".

There is a corresponding obligation on the railway to sell every passenger a ticket.

So yes, between every station entrance and every train, there should provision for the passenger to buy a ticket - either from a machine, or a ticket office, with modes of payment as advetised, which include cash and RTV. Or there is an excuse for the passenger not to do so.

I agree there should be a machine on each platform.
My local station, Wareham, has two machines and a ticket office all on the down (Weymouth) side yet nothing on the up where most passengers are heading and which is also the side all the buses stop.
Weirdly most times guards will come through before Bournemouth and sell tickets, but if you have one who does not (and I have never seen this done London side of Bournemouth) presumably a fine is on the cards if an RPI shows up, or at a gated exit station.
Seems lets make it as difficult as possible is the mantra.

 

[Horizon22]

In principle yes. However machines need to be restocked / fixed / emptied etc. So you'd need an extra increase in staff to maintain this. That isn't a bad thing for the railway or customer service, but would probably add substantial cost when increasingly, more are buying tickets online. I just don't see it being signed off by those with the purse strings.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What I'd certainly say is that:

• Where there is a TVM at a station with a level crossing, there should be two, one on each side. This is partly to avoid stranding people causing them to miss their train, but more importantly as a safety consideration - not everyone will obediently wait and miss their train if the crossing comes down when buying a ticket, but will instead run over the track, posing a safety and disruption issue.
• The same as above if a station has separate entrances to each platform - only in the event of there being an internal, wheelchair-accessible footbridge or subway (not just for wheelchair users, but luggage etc) is it acceptable to have a single TVM on one side only.
• If not an actual TVM, at all entrances to all stations there should be clear and prominent signage (not small print on a poster), standardised in its format across the country, stating the policy for purchasing tickets at that station and where any ticket office or TVM can be found. Sometimes TVMs are a bit hidden.

 

[Taunton]

I just don't see it being signed off by those with the purse strings.

This was the attitude before the Elsenham accident, when the two girls travelling to Cambridge were killed on the level crossing. The village is on the Cambridge-bound side but the only ticket purchase facility was on the London-bound side, meaning they like others had to cross the line twice at the crossing, which being on a busy high-speed route was repeatedly being closed. There was no ticket machine on the Cambridge side, but there was more than one severe notice about ticketless travel penalties.

Strangely, after the fine of £1m imposed by the court against Network Rail, a ticket machine (and footbridge) was, somehow, now found to be justified ...

 

[Horizon22]

This was the attitude before the Elsenham accident, when the two girls travelling to Cambridge were killed on the level crossing. The village is on the Cambridge-bound side but the only ticket purchase facility was on the London-bound side, meaning they like others had to cross the line twice at the crossing, which being on a busy high-speed route was repeatedly being closed. There was no ticket machine on the Cambridge side, but there was more than one severe notice about ticketless travel penalties.

Strangely, after the fine of £1m imposed by the court against Network Rail, a ticket machine (and footbridge) was, somehow, now found to be justified ...

I don't disagree that places that are busy and especially with level crossings should have one, especially if one is already there.

But every station on the country? That's a bit extreme.

 

[Ken H]

I don't disagree that places that are busy and especially with level crossings should have one, especially if one is already there.

But every station on the country? That's a bit extreme.

I agree. would the cost of installation be warrantied at Clapham (N yorks) or Garsdale?

 

[YorksLad12]

Potentially, if you gave everyone a rail smartcard. Stick it on a reader, choose your product, upload it and you're away. No physical ticket to issue and they won't take cash so the units could be quite small.

Given how long it's taken ITSO to get where it is now I'm guessing this is a non-starter, so; they should be on any platform that means passengers don't have to make a there-and-back trip to the wrong platform. And they will need checking for vandalism, even in rural areas.

 

[Snow1964]

There is certainly a case for reviewing each station (not the tidily ones) and putting in machines where car parks or bus stops mean what might have historically been a minor entrance are now used

Some machines are badly sited as well, not in the natural entrance, or away from footbridge if need to cross to them, would be better if you have To go past them, not as in some cases, hunt for them because hidden behind something else or a pillar, or have to walk pass them then turn round to find them (I can think of examples like this, where have to turn to side or behind you to use it)

 

[DelW]

It would be hard to justify on lines like the Heart of Wales, where trains are maximum two coaches long and every train has a conductor with a ticket machine. Some of the request stops have only a handful of passengers per day (or even per week for the smallest).

 

[etr221]

I don't disagree that places that are busy and especially with level crossings should have one, especially if one is already there.

But every station on the country? That's a bit extreme.

Is expecting a passenger to buy a ticket before travel at every station "a bit extreme"?

 

[Ianno87]

Is expecting a passenger to buy a ticket before travel at every station "a bit extreme"?

We live in the days of smart phones and e-tickets, so perhaps it is a bit extreme, yes.

All these machines come at a cost, both of installation and maintenance.

 

[Horizon22]

Is expecting a passenger to buy a ticket before travel at every station "a bit extreme"?

When you can buy in advance and either on a smart phone that the majority of people have (and a trend that will only increase), yes. And in some places, you aren't required to buy a ticket before you board.

 

[skyhigh]

So yes, between every station entrance and every train, there should provision for the passenger to buy a ticket - either from a machine, or a ticket office, with modes of payment as advertised, which include cash and RTV. Or there is an excuse for the passenger not to do so.

I agree in principle, but not at every station entrance - I can think of several small, infrequently used stations with 4 entrances on each platform. I also disagree that all machines should accept cash and RTVs - I'm not sure any machines currently accept RTVs, and with cash options for delay repay they're becoming increasingly rare. Cash is a difficult one - the costs of collecting and maintaining the equipment and risk of theft needs to be considered.

To be honest these days probably 80% of tickets I see are either seasons, smartcards or mobile tickets. I can only see that increasing in future. Can the cost of providing electrical supplies, installation and maintenance be outweighed by the additional revenue? I doubt it, otherwise the additional machines would be there by now. No matter how many machines you place on the stations, you're still going to have a level of 'pay when challenged' passengers.

Ultimately I think the best compromise is 1 per unstaffed station (unless the station is busy, or has a level crossing/non-accessible bridge between platforms etc), except locations where buying before you board isn't a requirement unless that station has enough footfall to justify it. Clear signage at each entrance telling passengers where the machine is and what to do if it is out of service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree in principle, but not at every station entrance - I can think of several small, infrequently used stations with 4 entrances on each platform. I also disagree that all machines should accept cash and RTVs - I'm not sure any machines currently accept RTVs, and with cash options for delay repay they're becoming increasingly rare. Cash is a difficult one - the costs of collecting and maintaining the equipment and risk of theft needs to be considered.

I think it's enough for there to be a very clear notice at every entrance stating (a) where it is, and (b) that usage is mandatory.

 

[Kite159]

There is certainly a case for reviewing each station (not the tidily ones) and putting in machines where car parks or bus stops mean what might have historically been a minor entrance are now used

Some machines are badly sited as well, not in the natural entrance, or away from footbridge if need to cross to them, would be better if you have To go past them, not as in some cases, hunt for them because hidden behind something else or a pillar, or have to walk pass them then turn round to find them (I can think of examples like this, where have to turn to side or behind you to use it)

Best one for most badly sited TVM I've come across is at Marsden where the single Northern touchscreen TVM is located on platform 3, the platform serving the loop, which I believe only sees no booked passenger use anymore. It's a good couple minute walk from the stairs down to Platforms 1 or 2 to that entrance (and the TVM is hidden away so you can barely see it if standing on the other 2 platforms.

 

[Parham Wood]

Was there not a time where most stations had only one ticket office, no ticket machines and no mobile or internet ticket facilities? People managed then. I would agree with machines on both platforms where level crossings are involved. Also the machines should be on the platform where they would be most frequently used and there should be adequate signage from each station entrance to the machine. No machines should be hiding out of easy sight.

 

[Taunton]

Best one for most badly sited TVM I've come across is at Marsden where the single Northern touchscreen TVM is located on platform 3, the platform serving the loop, which I believe only sees no booked passenger use anymore. It's a good couple minute walk from the stairs down to Platforms 1 or 2 to that entrance (and the TVM is hidden away so you can barely see it if standing on the other 2 platforms.

This sort of approach comes from engineer-led (or cost accountant-led) installation plans, where the machine is installed where there is a convenient power supply, regardless of this being a sensible place for the users. It also afflicted, for example, the placing of the Oyster readers at the open DLR stations - some logically sited, some not. Some are at the bottom of the stairs, even out on the public street, others are at the top of the stairs. The worst sited of all were, believe it or not, at the City Airport station, the one station with the highest number of unfamiliar passengers, where they were behind a pillar that was never in your line of sight as you entered from the terminal. It took the best part of 10 years of complaints before it was resited.

 

[nr758123]

Best one for most badly sited TVM I've come across is at Marsden where the single Northern touchscreen TVM is located on platform 3, the platform serving the loop, which I believe only sees no booked passenger use anymore. It's a good couple minute walk from the stairs down to Platforms 1 or 2 to that entrance (and the TVM is hidden away so you can barely see it if standing on the other 2 platforms.

You beat me to it.

The possible explanations are
(1) no thought was given to whether this platform would effectively be taken out of use at about the same time the ticket machine was installed
(2) it had to be put in a place that was wheelchair-accessible, which rules out both the operational platforms.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Whilst at least one at every unstaffed station would be desirable it would not be practical at many,especially those that are remote or have a limited service. In some areas there is repetitive vandalism possibly outweighing the cost of repairs. Locally there's been a machine removed due to repeated criminal activity. Also TVMs often refuse large notes for small fares,ok so the fare dodgers use this excuse but is it right to then PF those who genuinely wanted to pay but couldn't buy before boarding?

 

[Furryanimal]

The other week-just after travel restrictions had been eased in Wales-the ticket machine at Cwmbran only issued me the ticket for the outward half of my journey.Fortunately the ticket office was open and the lady on duty got me to fill in a form and issued replacement tickets.
The machine in question has a habit of doing this I was informed.
Ticket machines are great if they actually work....and try convincing a conductor or station staff why you don’t have a return tickert..but I think ones that accept cash are non starters in some places.They wouldn’t last two minutes in Cwmbran!
And they have to be easy to use.The new ones at Cwmbran are so badly designed you have to bend over to be able to read the card key pad!Wasn’t the case with old ones.

 

[robbeech]

Just some consistency and actual knowledge in the rules from staff would do just fine.

I think it’s absolutely fine for small unstaffed stations to not have ticketing facilities, but people who board them are routinely issued penalty fares and worse, and quite often just pay them. At the same time, thousands of people don’t buy a ticket where there ARE facilities and get to buy one on board “like they’ve done for years”. until the day they don’t of course.

if every platform (or entrance) of every station had a machine it wouldn’t make a blind bit of difference to people’s purchasing habits. Guards would still sell them, revenue teams would still prosecute people when they were broken. The fundamental problem is not the number of and location of the machines.

 

[uvarvu]

I see them a bit like cash machines. Not too bothered on them but there should be a ticketing app with a smart watch companion produced by Rail Settlement Plan. Said app should have automatic functions to find the cheapest tickets/routes etc and there shouldn’t be any fees. It also shouldn’t have to ask for any banking details and should use Apple/Google/Samsung pay instead. This may result in a lot of other travel apps being Sherlocked but it should have been like this in the first place (IMHO).

 

[Dai Corner]

Staffed and barriered Cardiff Queen Street has a TVM on platform 2, on the opposite side of the station to the entrance and used by trains from the Valleys towards Cardiff Central. I've never seen the point of that; indeed it could encourage fare evasion by making it easy to get off an incoming train and buy a single to Central to get through the barriers there.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I see this as a simple "either-or" situation. There are clearly going to be locations where
a) it's two (or more) tracks
b) access from one side to the other is only by means of a level crossing (foot or road) which is "closed" when a train is due in either direction
c) likely loadings are mostly unidirectional and passenger boardings from the lesser-used side are arguably not sufficient to warrant a machine
and so the sole machine is on the "wrong" side.

That's fine - as long as the TOC(s) concerned acknowledge that the situation exists and "deem" the facility provided does NOT represent a (reasonable) opportunity to buy before boarding. It's dumb (in my view) to go to the expense of installing and maintaining a machine for limited use, but alongside that, it's at best immoral to then penalise passengers who fail to do so.

So - either equip every platform (or entrance). Or treat passengers who are disadvantaged by them not doing so with flexibility and sympathy. Stations are already noted in a database as to whether they have ticket equipment and pax boarding at those that do not are not placed under the pre-purchase obligation. It's not "rocket science" for that database to contain direction data; Station XYZ Up direction = Yes. Station XYZ Down direction = no.

 

[stj]

Not in the age of the app even though I live near a station with limited ticket office hours and find it a nuisance
having to queue at the other end of journey for a ticket when staff dont come round.

 

[al78]

Was there not a time where most stations had only one ticket office, no ticket machines and no mobile or internet ticket facilities? People managed then. I would agree with machines on both platforms where level crossings are involved. Also the machines should be on the platform where they would be most frequently used and there should be adequate signage from each station entrance to the machine. No machines should be hiding out of easy sight.

Presumably there were ways for passengers to buy a ticket onboard the train or pay at their destination, like I've done in the past.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Can't see much point having a machine on every platform , I mean how would you get through the gateline to access them,by buying a ticket on your phone?

 

[Jonny]

Can't see much point having a machine on every platform , I mean how would you get through the gateline to access them,by buying a ticket on your phone?

I can think of three situations:

• Non-gateline stations where you have always had to go on the platform to buy a ticket.
• Settling up on promise-to-pay slips etc...
• Buying additional tickets (e.g. change of plan) when already legitimately ^behind^ the barrier.