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Should Every Station (& every Platform) Have a Ticket Machine?

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mrd269697

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Doesn’t help many stations with decent patronage are unstaffed. I work on a network where every single station bar a few outside the county boundary are staffed between 6am and midnight. And I feel stations with over 100k per annum should probably have a ticket office. More of an incentive to buy one than if there’s just a ticket machine. Ticketless travel is common on our stretch of unstaffed stations.
 
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robbeech

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You mention "the customer unfriendly railway of the 1970s", is this just a cliche? Not sure how online or TVM ticket technology can be described as 'friendly'; a friendly human being behind the glass selling tickets and helping with the customer's travel on the other hand...

Even with online tickets running off a journey planner system, it doesn't stop a passenger buying the off peak ticket and then turning up earlier in the peak hours. Many stations don't have barriers; for those that do some of the gateline staff don't check the ticket properly and then some guards don't bother checking.

A well run booking office at a busy station will ensure ticket revenue loss is kept to a minimum, and will be a lot more helping in assisting a passenger's journey than any website.
Well run, this is the crucial statement. Well run in the eyes of the passenger is very different to well run in the eyes of the operator.

The gateline staff argument is somewhat flawed. If they don’t care, they don’t care if you bought the ticket from the ticket office, the machine or a bloke outside with a colour printer. The same applies with a guard not checking, what difference does the place of purchase make here? The only time a TVM or Ticket Office can make a difference is if it prohibits purchase of a ticket. This is not customer friendly fir the reasons I mentioned in a previous post.
 

Furryanimal

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Ah Cwmbran. What a lovely 80s windswept hell hole of a station. Or at least, it was when I last used it. The ticket window was some random hatch in the end of the building.
It has improved since then but having to bend double to see the card slot on the ticket machine because of a poorly positioned shield doesn’t meet with my approval!
 

Bletchleyite

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It has improved since then but having to bend double to see the card slot on the ticket machine because of a poorly positioned shield doesn’t meet with my approval!

I practically have to sit on the floor to use the card machine on GWR's latest machines. Accommodating wheelchair users is certainly a worthwhile cause, but far more people are "walking wounded" with things like back injuries, and people are getting taller, so these machines are just as discriminatory as one that isn't wheelchair accessible. Cutting back the machine above the card slot so it can be seen and used at waist level without bending over is very much needed.
 

camflyer

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Whittlesford Parkway annoys me. The only ticket machines are on the platform into Cambridge while the opposite platform which is next to the main carpark and has London-bound trains has no machine.
 

Bevan Price

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So in a world when so much is online to the benefit of customers, you want rail to not follow that in order to protect revenue. Who wants the customer unfriendly railway of the 1970s?

As far as whether I am exaggerating re: smartphones, I am struck by the number of Zoom calls I have been on over the past year in which friends in their 60s and 70s have participated, clearly on smartphones rather than laptops as you can tell by the image moving that they are holding it in their hand.
The 1960s & 1970s was much more user friendly than now. Stuff is often put on line more for the convenience of the rail company than for passengers, and used as an excuse to cut staff numbers. If, like me, you only use TVMs infrequently, the menus are over-complicated and take ages to navigate. It is much quicker to buy a ticket from a trained person in a ticket office.

When pay-trains were intoduced, there was always a guard who came through the train selling tickets. One snag was that sometimes you could not book through tickets to lines served only by paytrains. I recall that once, travelling to Cromer, I could only book to Norwich, and needed a separate paytrain ticket onwards to Cromer.

And how much money do they actually save by using TVMs, gates, etc. instead of staff ?? Much computerised machinery is expensive to buy, repair, and prone to unreliability, and has poor functionality, e.g. unable to cater for the full range of tickets.

And yes, whilst I do have a basic smartphone, with a relatively low battery capacity, I don't trust enough it to let it anywhere near my financial details; I don't use it for any purchases, and as it does everything I want, I see no need to replace it every year or two; also I was using computers back in the 1970s, so I am not opposed to new technology - where that is the best option for doing tasks. Keep things simple for the customer / passenger is my preferred option -- we do not exist for the convenience of companies.
 

DJ_K666

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It has improved since then but having to bend double to see the card slot on the ticket machine because of a poorly positioned shield doesn’t meet with my approval!
TBH its been a while since I was there (2002 I believe. The train we got off was a Rugby Special, which meant a 37 and mostly mk2 LHCS including a mk1 in the set. Guess which I sat in...). Does it still have the incredibly 80s one piece corrugated platform canopies?
 

miklcct

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Tap and go should be implemented in the whole country, alleviating the need of ticket machines.
 

Deafdoggie

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whilst I do have a basic smartphone, with a relatively low battery capacity, I don't trust enough it to let it anywhere near my financial details; I don't use it for any purchases, and as it does everything I want, I see no need to replace it every year or two; also I was using computers back in the 1970s, so I am not opposed to new technology - where that is the best option for doing tasks. Keep things simple for the customer / passenger is my preferred option -- we do not exist for the convenience of companies.
I have genuinely never understood this argument. What do you feel the problem with making payment on a phone is? After all, pay by card in any shop now and the transaction is sent to your bank by mobile Internet, using exactly the same technology as paying directly from your own phone. I believe it is far simpler and faster to make an online transaction as a customer. It also makes things cheaper. I don't understand why anyone would rather put in more effort and pay more, just to make a point that everything shouldn't be online. Not everything online is perfect, but not everything not online is perfect either.
 

JonathanH

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Tap and go should be implemented in the whole country, alleviating the need of ticket machines.
The government certainly agree with you but it can only sensibly be implemented on a regional basis. There remain some unanswered questions about how it will work for certain users (eg children) and whether it would mean the end of things like Groupsave, the Family and Two Together railcards and other forms of ticketing which aren't just point to point (and whether that is politically acceptable).
 

CBlue

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Whittlesford Parkway annoys me. The only ticket machines are on the platform into Cambridge while the opposite platform which is next to the main carpark and has London-bound trains has no machine.
Agreed, it's a ridiculous layout in that regard. The footbridge gets nice and slippery in wet weather too!
 

AM9

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Tap and go should be implemented in the whole country, alleviating the need of ticket machines.
Tap what on what? Is the thing that is tapped a machine or a gatepost/tree at the station?
I have genuinely never understood this argument. What do you feel the problem with making payment on a phone is? After all, pay by card in any shop now and the transaction is sent to your bank by mobile Internet, using exactly the same technology as paying directly from your own phone. I believe it is far simpler and faster to make an online transaction as a customer. It also makes things cheaper. I don't understand why anyone would rather put in more effort and pay more, just to make a point that everything shouldn't be online. Not everything online is perfect, but not everything not online is perfect either.
You need a smartphone with NFT, so not all perfectly good phones can do that. Next, a smartphone is becoming a target for thieves, and is more difficult to carry, so even if some of the security measures that banking and other transaction services require work, there's still the cost and inconvenience of being targetted for the hardware.
As for your point that paying by card uses the internet, (landline or mobile), that is the responsibility of the retailer, if batteries are discharged or they are in an area of unreliable reception, then it's their problem, not the person actually giving then business. If the card, (chip and pin or contactless) doesn't work, that's the card issuer's problem.
 

Bletchleyite

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You need a smartphone with NFT, so not all perfectly good phones can do that.

NFC (not NFT) is needed to use the phone for contactless payment at a TVM substituting for a card.

It is not needed to purchase something using an app. All you need to do that is your card details, which it can be set to remember or not as per your preference.

Next, a smartphone is becoming a target for thieves, and is more difficult to carry

I would venture that if I went out into the street and asked "have you got a smartphone in your pocket?" to randomers, and didn't just get a punch in the face, then at least 80% of people would answer "yes", and that will only increase.

so even if some of the security measures that banking and other transaction services require work, there's still the cost and inconvenience of being targetted for the hardware.

Buy a cheap or used one. The thieves are after iPhones, not for instance Motorolas which are very well priced for their features, at £129 for the G10 for example which is a very competent phone for the price.
 

AM9

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NFC (not NFT) is needed to use the phone for contactless payment at a TVM substituting for a card.

It is not needed to purchase something using an app. All you need to do that is your card details, which it can be set to remember or not as per your preference.



I would venture that if I went out into the street and asked "have you got a smartphone in your pocket?" to randomers, and didn't just get a punch in the face, then at least 80% of people would answer "yes", and that will only increase.



Buy a cheap or used one. The thieves are after iPhones, not for instance Motorolas which are very well priced for their features, at £129 for the G10 for example which is a very competent phone for the price.
1)'NFT', oops my typo. I don't use my Moto G8+ for buying things. I don't have any problem with the extra weight of a bank card and a credit card both of which can do contactless. I won't put a bank application on my phone although RBS keeps pushing me to do so. After 38 years with them they might drive me elsewhere if they persist.

2)Not what I meant. Phones are objects that are brought out and used more often than cards, (by me and most people that I know anyway. I don't tend to leave mine around but there are many who for various reasons do.

3)See above. Those who stand on street corners playing with their £1000+ iphones or Galaxys are inviting drive by (or cycle by) theft.

The bottom line is that owning and having to carry a phone with certain facilities that provide payment methods that are convenient to (in this case train) companies should not be a prerequisite for travelling on public transport, and if it becomes absolute that people need to go to that length, it will be disenfranchising a significant proportion of the population. It may be convenient for many here who I suspect that live their lives on their smartphones, but that should not be forced on anybody.

I understand the issue with vandalism on cash taking machines (thankfully I've not seen any of that myself but I'm sure that there are areas where it is rife). I think that any machnie that can print should be issuing Aztec coded tickets (as are used on e-tickets),they can even be printed on bus ticket roll paper so no need for something expensive like current orange mag stripe tickets, and gatelines would only need optical readers, i.e. no way for ingested tickets to be incorrectly retained. That would need a back-office connection but that is becoming de-rigeur anyway even if only with GSM. Such machines should also be able to issue an authority to travel in the case of a failure to accept payment. Where travel is normally to a large station (as a destination or where a change is always necessary) machines that can convert that authority to travel into a valid ticket can be installed and supported properly.
 

Bletchleyite

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1)'NFT', oops my typo. I don't use my Moto G8+ for buying things. I don't have any problem with the extra weight of a bank card and a credit card both of which can do contactless. I won't put a bank application on my phone although RBS keeps pushing me to do so. After 38 years with them they might drive me elsewhere if they persist.

Why not try it before you decide it's not for you? It's more secure than a telephone call, and incredibly convenient.

However you don't need a bank app on your phone to buy train tickets with it. They are not related.
 

miklcct

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Tap what on what? Is the thing that is tapped a machine or a gatepost/tree at the station?
Tap a smart card (which is sold in major stations and also convenience stores) on a ticket validating machine set up on platforms or gates.
 

Llandudno

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NFC (not NFT) is needed to use the phone for contactless payment at a TVM substituting for a card.

It is not needed to purchase something using an app. All you need to do that is your card details, which it can be set to remember or not as per your preference.



I would venture that if I went out into the street and asked "have you got a smartphone in your pocket?" to randomers, and didn't just get a punch in the face, then at least 80% of people would answer "yes", and that will only increase.



Buy a cheap or used one. The thieves are after iPhones, not for instance Motorolas which are very well priced for their features, at £129 for the G10 for example which is a very competent phone for the price.
Or go on EBay and buy a second hand, unlocked iPhone 8 for about £120.

Then get a sim only contract for around £10 a month.
 

AM9

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Why not try it before you decide it's not for you? It's more secure than a telephone call, and incredibly convenient.

However you don't need a bank app on your phone to buy train tickets with it. They are not related.
You still need either cash stored on the phone or it linked to some account that can be charged.
I don't see what buying tickets has to do with the security of telephone calls.
Bank/credit cards work perfectly well for me, I don't have problems remembering to carry them or my rail cards, nor do I regularly lose tickets. So my means of buying and using travel tickets aren't broken and don't need fixing. Just because the latest technology can do something, it doesn't mean that it should replace other technology that already works perfectly well.
 

Furryanimal

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TBH its been a while since I was there (2002 I believe. The train we got off was a Rugby Special, which meant a 37 and mostly mk2 LHCS including a mk1 in the set. Guess which I sat in...). Does it still have the incredibly 80s one piece corrugated platform canopies?
No...we have a modern waiting room,ticket office and cafe on the northbound platform and an enclosed shelter with seats on the southbound one.We have also recently acquired a bus service that stops there which is dead handy!
 

DJ_K666

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No...we have a modern waiting room,ticket office and cafe on the northbound platform and an enclosed shelter with seats on the southbound one.We have also recently acquired a bus service that stops there which is dead handy!
Nice! Not bad for a prefabricated concrete station. I do recall it could get pretty windy (and wet) there.
 

UKRailfan_22

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I agree, every station apart from obviously request stops and stations with significanty low passenger numbers should have some form of ticket machine or contactless validation points. Transport for wales has introduced ticket machines at nearly all of there stations during there station refurbishment programme and replaced all existing machines and have now started introducing contactless validation points at stations.
 

Harpers Tate

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Tap a smart card (which is sold in major stations and also convenience stores) on a ticket validating machine set up on platforms or gates.
or, better still, adjacent to each and every door on the train itself. No risk, then, of "tapping in" if it doesn't turn up or is too full to board. It's what we do on buses - and would obviate the need for machine maintenance at sometimes remote locations and would limit vandalism, etc. As long as you don't forget to "tap out" as you leave.
 

camflyer

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or, better still, adjacent to each and every door on the train itself. No risk, then, of "tapping in" if it doesn't turn up or is too full to board. It's what we do on buses - and would obviate the need for machine maintenance at sometimes remote locations and would limit vandalism, etc. As long as you don't forget to "tap out" as you leave.

Wouldn't that increase far evasion? At least on buses you usually have to walk past the driver when tapping in and TfL have been removing the contactless points on the middle and rear door.
 

gallafent

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At least on buses you usually have to walk past the driver when tapping in and TfL have been removing the contactless points on the middle and rear door.
That's a pity. Long gone are the halcyon days of the bendy buses, enter and exit through all three doors. Those were excellent. Such short dwell times, it made for an enormously faster journey.
 

Harpers Tate

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Wouldn't that increase far evasion? At least on buses you usually have to walk past the driver when tapping in and TfL have been removing the contactless points on the middle and rear door.
No reason at all why such a scheme couldn't be accompanied, as the current system is, with random revenue blocks, onboard checks, and barriers at staffed stations.
 

Mat17

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I guess the concept of the 'pay train' is well and truly dead.

It's all well having ticket machines on every station but if those stations have anti-social behaviour issues and constant vandalism, then when do TOCs draw the line and give up repairing them?
 

Spamcan81

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Why would it be a good use of public money to artificially increase the need for ticket office staff. Moreover, why would I or anyone else want to waste time waiting needlessly in a queue?

Like there’s never a queue waiting to use a TVM?
 
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