Should 'Leeds Bradford Airport Parkway' (still) be built ?

[Halifaxlad]

With the news that Leeds Bradford Airport have scrapped their multi-million expansion plans and will now look at revisiting their previous expansion plans for the existing terminal building which is further away from this proposed/planned station, do people think this new station should still be built ?

Leeds Bradford Airport scraps plans for new £150m terminal

Leeds Bradford Airport bosses blame “excessive delays” and the decision to hold a public inquiry.

www.bbc.co.uk

Thoughts and opinions please!

 

[yoyothehobo]

No, it was a terrible idea in the first place. The Harrogate line was unsuitable for this.

Considering how much more frequent trains are to Apperley Bridge and the greater number of destinations you can get to from there (ie actually Bradford), it would be easier just to have a free shuttle bus to the airport from there, or one with a small through ticket charge.

 

[30907]

Considering how much more frequent trains are to Apperley Bridge

Really? 2tph - potentially 4 if you stop the Skiptons. Harrogate was going to 4 anyway pre Covid.

and the greater number of destinations you can get to from there (ie actually Bradford)

and Airedale, but at the expense of Harrogate.

Ingenious idea, though it's nearly 3x the distance compared with the Parkway station and on busy roads.

 

[bluenoxid]

What will potentially break the business case is the proposed Park and Ride that they were hoping to put in as well. North Leeds would benefit from something but I don’t know if this station or a bus served P&R opposite the entrance to the Grammar School on the A61 would be better

I appreciate the site constraints and challenges but I think that building a link road for buses out of Horsforth station north would be better than creating a new station.

Guiseley doesn’t feel like it could offer a great interchange.

 

[mike57]

The location of Leeds Bradford airport has always been problematic, no rail link, not particularly near any motorways, highest airport (according to wiki, but not sure on the definition of 'airport') in England at ~600ft/200m above sea level makes for difficult conditions both at the airport and on surrounding roads in winter. Also because of location subject to crosswinds.

Although the nearest rail line (Leeds Harrogate) is only about 1 1/4 miles away, geography means that a heavy rail link to the airport is impossible without major civil engineering, same thing applies to Apperley Bridge. A bus link from a station to the airport is going to have to negotiate the roads around Pool in Wharfedale and Pool Bank.

If you built a new road link its might connect at a railway station, but then non rail traffic is still going to have to go somewhere, and there are no decent link roads to the M62 axis.

If lots of funding was available one could imagine a tram - train solution, perhaps a loop from Leeds to Horsforth then via the airport to the Ilkley branch, and back to Leeds, but I dont think potential usage would justify costs, and there would still be a lot of civil engineering probably including tunnels.

In the 70s there was a scheme to build a motorway from Dishforth to Pudsey and on to the M1, before the M1 was taken east of Leeds. This would have improved access to the airport and the whole area north and west of Leeds, but it got killed off pretty quickly.

Rail wise there was the link through Otley from the Harrogate line to the Ilkley line, and if this had survived would probably be quite well served today, but this wouldn't have helped with airport access.

If the P&R is built you still have the problem of the capacity of the surrounding road network.

A better spot for a Park and Ride might be between Pannal and Weeton close to the A61/A658 junction, with access of the junction, at least there are decent roads to get traffic out of the P&R area, this could be usefull for both Leeds and Harrogate travellers, and I could even see benefits in stopping the Harrogate - London services there.

 

[adamedwards]

So given the location issues, would the UK strategic choice be to close the airport and run services from Doncaster airport instead, with suitable transport connections? I do wonder how much Manchester airport has taken much of the demand away as it is better served? Given the need for a net zero future I do wonder how many airports the UK actually needs. Probably the wrong speculative thread for that discussion.

 

[mike57]

would the UK strategic choice be to close the airport and run services from Doncaster airport instead

Probably not close it, that would be a political minefield, and as far as I know it doesn't receive any subsidies, but I dont see it ever being more than it is now. From a lot of areas which could conceivably be regarded as in LBA catchment area Manchester or Doncaster Airport is actually easier to access. Really the only areas where it would be first choice is an area north of Leeds and Bradford and the Harrogate area.

 

[Neptune]

So given the location issues, would the UK strategic choice be to close the airport and run services from Doncaster airport instead, with suitable transport connections? I do wonder how much Manchester airport has taken much of the demand away as it is better served? Given the need for a net zero future I do wonder how many airports the UK actually needs. Probably the wrong speculative thread for that discussion.

Thereby increasing my carbon footprint travelling the 40 odd miles to Doncaster rather than the 4 miles to LBA.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Probably not close it, that would be a political minefield, and as far as I know it doesn't receive any subsidies, but I dont see it ever being more than it is now. From a lot of areas which could conceivably be regarded as in LBA catchment area Manchester or Doncaster Airport is actually easier to access. Really the only areas where it would be first choice is an area north of Leeds and Bradford and the Harrogate area.

Several years ago there was talk of converting an old RAF base somewhere near Church Fenton (forget the exact location) into a civilian airport to replace Yeadon. If we had a magic money tree, this would probably be a better option than any upgrade of the existing airport... hopefully with terminals strategically sited to make a rail link feasible:- either with a spur as at Manchester or a Gatwick-style station on the existing Leeds to York line. However it would be in North Yorkshire so boundaries might need looking at.

 

[dazzler]

Several years ago there was talk of converting an old RAF base somewhere near Church Fenton (forget the exact location) into a civilian airport to replace Yeadon.

That would probably have been RAF Church Fenton, now known as Leeds East Airport (on Google Maps at least!), which is to the north-east of the village, with nowt but fields and a minor road between it and the York-Leeds/Normanton lines just north of Church Fenton station.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That would probably have been RAF Church Fenton, now known as Leeds East Airport (on Google Maps at least!), which is to the north-east of the village, with nowt but fields and a minor road between it and the York-Leeds/Normanton lines just north of Church Fenton station.

Presumably not too far from the M1 extension then... if LBA didn't exist and you were trying to find an ideal site for a Leeds Airport, one probably couldn't do much better than that. You certainly wouldn't build it at Yeadon if it wasn't already there.

 

[dazzler]

Presumably not too far from the M1 extension then... if LBA didn't exist and you were trying to find an ideal site for a Leeds Airport, one probably couldn't do much better than that. You certainly wouldn't build it at Yeadon if it wasn't already there.

Aye, about 5 or 6 miles from the A1(M)-M1 junction near Aberford, from a quick guess on GMaps. Possibly a little further taking local topography into account (Plus a couple of inconveniently located villages/historic battlefields/etc...)

 

[AndrewE]

Thereby increasing my carbon footprint travelling the 40 odd miles to Doncaster rather than the 4 miles to LBA.

No, Doncaster is also a local-authority ego-trip poorly served by public transport.
We should be looking at less travel overall, definitely much less flying, therefore from fewer bigger (than Leeds/Bradford or Doncaster) hubs - and places like Bristol airport should probably be winding down too.
Anyone heard of the climate crisis?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Aye, about 5 or 6 miles from the A1(M)-M1 junction near Aberford, from a quick guess on GMaps. Possibly a little further taking local topography into account (Plus a couple of inconveniently located villages/historic battlefields/etc...)

Not brilliant from a roads point of view then... perhaps if that site had been chosen in the 60s or 70s there'd have been a spur road built from the A1, though the M1 didn't go beyond Leeds back then of course. It'd never happen now, and rightly so.

To be honest, my position on LBA is that it'll never compete with Manchester on raw numbers. Most of the flights there seem to be low-cost carriers and holiday charters, and I can't see that changing much. The club Med holiday crowd generally are families who are less likely to use public transport to get to the airport. They'll drive and park, or they'll get a friend or relative to drive them to the airport and pay them with a big box of cigs or "duty-paid" wine when they come home. Those people are also flexible about which airport they use: If LBA has the cheaper package they'll book that, but if it's £40 cheaper per person for a family of 4 from Doncaster-Sheffield they'll use that instead.

 

[Ken H]

Not brilliant from a roads point of view then... perhaps if that site had been chosen in the 60s or 70s there'd have been a spur road built from the A1, though the M1 didn't go beyond Leeds back then of course. It'd never happen now, and rightly so.

To be honest, my position on LBA is that it'll never compete with Manchester on raw numbers. Most of the flights there seem to be low-cost carriers and holiday charters, and I can't see that changing much. The club Med holiday crowd generally are families who are less likely to use public transport to get to the airport. They'll drive and park, or they'll get a friend or relative to drive them to the airport and pay them with a big box of cigs or "duty-paid" wine when they come home. Those people are also flexible about which airport they use: If LBA has the cheaper package they'll book that, but if it's £40 cheaper per person for a family of 4 from Doncaster-Sheffield they'll use that instead.

We found flights from Manchester were quite a bit cheaper than LBA. parking at LBA is more too. We dont live in Leeds so the small extra distance makes Manchester a better deal.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Friendly reminder this thread is supposed to be about whenever or not WYCA should carry on with their plans to spend around £40 million on this parkway station!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Friendly reminder this thread is supposed to be about whenever or not WYCA should carry on with their plans to spend around £40 million on this parkway station!

Quite right, apologies!

With the Airport being where it is in relation to the railway, my feeling is no, they shouldn't carry on.
An airport line would be a good option as "line 1" of a tram system, possibly using the alignment of the proposed link road. If you need a bus shuttle, use a nearby station that already exists such as Headingley- a bus turning circle is cheaper than a new station with a bus turning circle.

 

[thejuggler]

Build it. but for the actual reason I think it was planned. A Park and Ride station for the Harrogate line which is badly needed. Linking it to the airport probably gave it a higher benefit to cost ratio to get the funding.

Leeds airport is convenient for huge numbers of people, Doncaster isn't and Manchester is simply awful to get to and not fun when you are there.

 

[willgreen]

£40 million is genuinely insane, I don't know why so much of the budget is going on a station here when there's dozens of better options around West Yorkshire. A parkway station would be helpful but even a site like Horsforth Woodside, just off the ring road, would get much of the same benefit and with a decent catchment area to boot - and surely for less money too?

 

[mike57]

use a nearby station that already exists such as Headingley- a bus turning circle is cheaper than a new station with a bus turning circle.

I think the issue is the surrounding roads to the airport and roads surrounding any park and ride station within the West Yorkshire boundary. Its an urban/suburban area and the roads are not suited to a fast and reliable bus service. If you build a new link road then this is going to impinge on green space which will not be popular locally.

£40 million seems like an awful lot of money to spend on this project. I cant see it getting many LBA passengers out of their cars on to public transport, and as a commuter station for Leeds travellers the surrounding road network isn't suitable, to be effective a P&R station needs to have good road links away from the station so that people can benefit from a quicker/easier journey than they would if they took the car all the way into town. I realise my suggestion for a P&R station close to the A658/A61 junction fails as its over the boundary in N Yorkshire, but as a location boundaries aside I could see that location being popular from a fairly wide catchement area.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Quite right, apologies!

No need to apologies but thanks all the same.

Build it. but for the actual reason I think it was planned. A Park and Ride station for the Harrogate line which is badly needed. Linking it to the airport probably gave it a higher benefit to cost ratio to get the funding.

Leeds airport is convenient for huge numbers of people, Doncaster isn't and Manchester is simply awful to get to and not fun when you are there.

A park and ride on the Harrogate line may be badly needed but I can't help but think 40 odd million is rather a lot for something in such a poor location! Ideally we need somewhere that would allow a multi-story car park to be built! I think it was going to be surface only car parking at this new station, nor can I ever see a multistory being allowed in that location.

A parkway station would be helpful but even a site like Horsforth Woodside, just off the ring road, would get much of the same benefit and with a decent catchment area to boot - and surely for less money too?

There has been recently calls for a study into three new stations including Horsforth Woodside I don't know if anything has come from it.

Call for studies into three railway stations in Leeds - Proposed Railway Schemes

Liberal Democrat councillors are set to table an amendment to the 22/23 Leeds City Council budget for studies into railway stations at Marsh Lane, Woodside Quarry and Methley. Marsh Lane

trundleage.co.uk

From looking at the minutes on page 17 under amendment 28 it does say

"b) An increase to the City Development budget of £100k to fund feasibility studies to establish railway stations at Woodside Quarry (including a park and ride scheme), Methley and Marsh Lane.’"

Lets hope this study is conducted fairly quickly as if LBA Parkway doesn't go ahead Leeds Council is likely to loose the money if its not careful!

 

[bluenoxid]

No need to apologies but thanks all the same.



A park and ride on the Harrogate line may be badly needed but I can't help but think 40 odd million is rather a lot for something in such a poor location! Ideally we need somewhere that would allow a multi-story car park to be built! I think it was going to be surface only car parking at this new station, nor can I ever see a multistory being allowed in that location.



There has been recently calls for a study into three new stations including Horsforth Woodside I don't know if anything has come from it.

Call for studies into three railway stations in Leeds - Proposed Railway Schemes

Liberal Democrat councillors are set to table an amendment to the 22/23 Leeds City Council budget for studies into railway stations at Marsh Lane, Woodside Quarry and Methley. Marsh Lane

trundleage.co.uk

From looking at the minutes on page 17 under amendment 28 it does say

"b) An increase to the City Development budget of £100k to fund feasibility studies to establish railway stations at Woodside Quarry (including a park and ride scheme), Methley and Marsh Lane.’"

Lets hope this study is conducted fairly quickly as if LBA Parkway doesn't go ahead Leeds Council is likely to loose the money if its not careful!

That amendment was rejected at the meeting.

Construction on a housing development to the east of the railway line by the ring road at Horsforth Woodside has begun.

I’m not under the impression that this station (Leeds-Bradford Airport Parkway) has any funding firmly allocated to it.

 

[matacaster]

No, p&r should be abandoned. If rail access were to be built, it should be thru route from Guiseley to Horsforth in tunnel with station at airport. However
1. Airport is poorly located
2. Airport is very difficult to reach by bus and even car unless you live next door
3. Airport runway is still fairly short
4. Airport might as well be shut, plenty of capacity at Manchester (with all necessary rail and other transport links)
5. Tunnelled route is too expesive

 

[Bayum]

Aye, about 5 or 6 miles from the A1(M)-M1 junction near Aberford, from a quick guess on GMaps. Possibly a little further taking local topography into account (Plus a couple of inconveniently located villages/historic battlefields/etc...)

Depends which junction you come off really. If you come off at Garforth and come via Towton etc, or via the A74 and A162 you’re looking at 20 mins easily. The airport is regularly used. Flight path is over the school I teach at.

 

[Halifaxlad]

That amendment was rejected at the meeting.

Construction on a housing development to the east of the railway line by the ring road at Horsforth Woodside has begun.

I’m not under the impression that this station (Leeds-Bradford Airport Parkway) has any funding firmly allocated to it.

I was under the impression

the development on the quarry itself had begun and that the site by the road which would be ideal for a multistory is being used as a compound until when the main quarry has been completed.

also that this new LBA Parkway station was being funded through the £150million left over from when the goverment halted this trolly bus scheme for Leeds, also under the impression it has to be spent by a certain date. Which is why I thought I'll create this thread because if the airport station doesn't go ahead it might as well be spent on something else.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I thought the Trolleybus money was Leeds City Council's baby, not WYCA's... however whichever authority it is needs to start being more transparent with their naming of projects. A case in point being White Rose station which isn't actually all that close to the mall. If they'd just branded the whole exercise as a relocation of Cottingley (which in effect it is) they could have saved a lot of folk worrying that the access to the railway on their doorstep was about to be removed. Similarly, an "Airport Parkway" Station that isn't close to the airport or the long-distance road network isn't going to be particularly successful as an airport link or a park&ride... but it ticks all the "sustainability" buzzwords, and apparently that's more important...

 

[HuggyB87]

To find out how much of a flop it may be, look at Liverpool South Parkway. Built for exactly the same reasons; to connect passengers to the airport. The station is dead.

Very rarely (even before covid) did many people travel to/from the airport via there - having to get the train to LSP, to only have to get a bus anyway to take you a mile or two around the corner to the airport.

The only thing LSP is good for, is the cat.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

To find out how much of a flop it may be, look at Liverpool South Parkway. Built for exactly the same reasons; to connect passengers to the airport. The station is dead.

Very rarely (even before covid) did many people travel to/from the airport via there - having to get the train to LSP, to only have to get a bus anyway to take you a mile or two around the corner to the airport.

The only thing LSP is good for, is the cat.

At least LSP serves multiple routes so has a pretty good service into town... a Yeadon* Parkway would have 2tph, maybe 4tph at the absolute best, be even further from the airport than LSP is from Speke*, with a fair old height difference for good measure.

*= just following Forum convention by referring to airports by their historic localised name.

 

[Ken H]

Yeadon serves a big area - not just Leeds. a rail line from Leeds would be of no use to people from Keighley, Wharfedale, Bradford, Halifax etc. So not much traffic for rail. Surely the A1 bus does the job quite adequately?

 

[Neptune]

Yeadon serves a big area - not just Leeds. a rail line from Leeds would be of no use to people from Keighley, Wharfedale, Bradford, Halifax etc. So not much traffic for rail. Surely the A1 bus does the job quite adequately?

The big car park does the job perfectly for me, the only real option from Airedale if you discount taxis.