Should restrictions be eased fully if Indian Variant case rates do not decline before June 21st?

[WestRiding]

I'm not going to have my second part of the Vaccination. It has been absolutely pointless if stuff doesn't get eased. I will resume my treatment when it unlocks freedom. Right now, I cannot do anything that an un-vaccinated can't do. First it was the Vulnerable. Then over 60. Then over 50. Then over 40. See the pattern? Lied to.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I do think WFH is going to remain in some form, and I think that’s a good thing, people have been wanting a work/life balance and Covid proved that it could be done, however it’s not a reason to continue restrictions, at this point nothing should impede on June 21st

I'm not going to have my second part of the Vaccination. It has been absolutely pointless if stuff doesn't get eased. I will resume my treatment when it unlocks freedom. Right now, I cannot do anything that an un-vaccinated can't do. First it was the Vulnerable. Then over 60. Then over 50. Then over 40. See the pattern? Lied to.

I know a fair many people who have this outlook, what is difference between being vaccinated or unvaccinated at this point? Nothing at all, you can still catch Covid even if you’re vaccinated

 

[Ianno87]

If people hate the commute that much that they want to WFH permanently, then they should either negotiate with their employer to let them WFH permanently or move to a job that lets them WFH permanently. What they should not be doing is advocating restrictions that gives them what they want but negatively impacts on other people’s lives.

Yes, the solution here is employers continuing to offer employees flexibility in WFH where this is practical. I have certainly seen people on Twitter complaining about being "forced" back to the office as restrictions eased, whereas they may be less likely to complain if their employers treated them like grownups.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Yes, the solution here is employers continuing to offer employees flexibility in WFH where this is practical. I have certainly seen people on Twitter complaining about being "forced" back to the office as restrictions eased, whereas they may be less likely to complain if their employers treated them like grownups.

There could be a couple of extremely busy weeks on the roads and railways soon after the easing of all restrictions, when whole offices briefly go back for team bonding/training sessions and the like, but it'll be brief. As you say, many people prefer the choice. Some people here (not you, I must admit!) act as though WFH wasn't a thing pre-COVID. It was, and very much so at the beginning and end of the week.

 

[3141]

It’s really no wonder a large amount of the people are reluctant to get the vaccine and are becoming increasingly more and more sceptical (me being one of them, though I decided long ago that I didn’t need the Covid vaccine because even if I did get it, it would barely affect me)

I’ve heard a fair many people say they won’t bother getting the 2nd for this reason alone, although I’m sure there are other reasons too

How interesting! You may be of an age when the virus is likely to have very little effect on you, if you get it, but how can you "decide" it would barely affect you?

I wonder if you've considered that if someone doesn't have the vaccine, they are more likely to become infected, and therefore there's a greater chance they can pass it on to other people, which will spread it more than if they had been vaccinated. Or is that another thing you decided wouldn't happen?

 

[VauxhallandI]

What European countries have vaccinated 80% of adults

How interesting! You may be of an age when the virus is likely to have very little effect on you, if you get it, but how can you "decide" it would barely affect you?

I wonder if you've considered that if someone doesn't have the vaccine, they are more likely to become infected, and therefore there's a greater chance they can pass it on to other people, which will spread it more than if they had been vaccinated. Or is that another thing you decided wouldn't happen?

It’s the same if you are doubled jabbed - what’s your next move?

 

[3141]

It’s the same if you are doubled jabbed - what’s your next move?

You'll have to explain that. There are posts here about people saying they won't have a second jab, and at least one from somebody who decided not to have any, so what is "the same" about being double jabbed?

 

[duncanp]

I see that Boris Johnson is refusing to guarantee that the restrictions won't be kept in place for longer than four more weeks, past July 19th.

To be honest, I wouldn't worry too much about that, because if he were to say "I guarantee that Freedom Day will definitely take place on July 19th", I wouldn't believe him.

Personally I hope that he announces tomorrow a phased easing of restrictions that is tied to significant milestones in the vaccination program. (eg All adults offered 1st dose, 75% of adults offered second dose) That way he can keep to his "data, not dates" strategy.

Either that, or he introduces some criteria for easing restrictions which takes account of the economic damage they are causing, or he simply says that it will no longer be necessary for all four tests to be met, and that the government will make a judgement at the time as to what is best to do.

Boris Johnson also needs to assert himself against the SAGE scientists who are continually undermining government policy with their dodgy modelling and scare stories. The scientists need to understand that the government is in charge and makes the decisions, and will be accountable to parliament and the people if they get it wrong.

 

[VauxhallandI]

You'll have to explain that. There are posts here about people saying they won't have a second jab, and at least one from somebody who decided not to have any, so what is "the same" about being double jabbed?

I’ve had my two jabs but I can still catch it and still pass it on. Is there a secret exact percentage chance that you have worked out that is ok to have or will the goal posts just move on from there again?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Recent statements that the delta virus is now said to be 60% more infectious than other variants and that of the reported deaths said to have been from vaccinated people in the previous period where these people have had both of their vaccinations is now said to be 12 are yet another snippets of medical information that my next-door neighbour (who is a medical consultant) has passed on to me. He is based in one of the teaching hospitals in the North-West.

Do I have to take what he says "with a pinch of salt"?

No its the reality of the situation but then so is a multitude of other risks we have to confront on a daily basis. What we have now though is tantamount to a Zero Covid policy being exercised by the govt without any reference to whether thats what people want. The other concern I have here now is whilst this particular outbreak will sort itself out naturally, with or without the help of vaccines, but are we going to always be on a defcon 1 alert level that if a new zoonotic outbreak occurs somewhere our default response will be to shut our borders and restrict our freedoms everytime now?

I see that Boris Johnson is refusing to guarantee that the restrictions won't be kept in place for longer than four more weeks, past July 19th.

To be honest, I wouldn't worry too much about that, because if he were to say "I guarantee that Freedom Day will definitely take place on July 19th", I wouldn't believe him.

Personally I hope that he announces tomorrow a phased easing of restrictions that is tied to significant milestones in the vaccination program. (eg All adults offered 1st dose, 75% of adults offered second dose) That way he can keep to his "data, not dates" strategy.

Either that, or he introduces some criteria for easing restrictions which takes account of the economic damage they are causing, or he simply says that it will no longer be necessary for all four tests to be met, and that the government will make a judgement at the time as to what is best to do.

Boris Johnson also needs to assert himself against the SAGE scientists who are continually undermining government policy with their dodgy modelling and scare stories. The scientists need to understand that the government is in charge and makes the decisions, and will be accountable to parliament and the people if they get it wrong.

Yup he constantly moves the goalposts and doesn't even have the integrity to tell people we've changed policy and this is why and what the benefit will be.

If he was keeping to data not dates we should have Step 4 - the only thing hes worrying about is having to reverse any of it as it wouldn't look good him - everyone else doesn't matter. Its always about him and his minions just lap it up and regurgitate the same story. No one can think for themselves in this govt.

 

[bengley]

Work from home has been a farce.

When I tried to change a ferry booking last year with P&O it was impossible to get in touch with them because their staff were all working from home.

When I wanted to collect a PC part same day because I needed it to keep my PC working, the company said they weren't doing collections because their staff were working from home.

When I tried to contact National Express regarding a coach booking I couldn't, again, because their staff are working from home.

Get your staff back in the office if you can't offer your normal service. It's not an acceptable excuse anymore.

 

[nlogax]

Get your staff back in the office if you can't offer your normal service. It's not an acceptable excuse anymore.

Can't help but agree. Some businesses will fail if reduced service due to WFH and Covid continues much longer.

 

[3141]

I’ve had my two jabs but I can still catch it and still pass it on. Is there a secret exact percentage chance that you have worked out that is ok to have or will the goal posts just move on from there again?

I've also had two jabs, I don't know what you're trying to get at referring to a secret percentage chance or why you might think I've worked one out.

 

[liam456]

What we have now though is tantamount to a Zero Covid policy being exercised by the govt without any reference to whether thats what people want.

Zero covid now has morphed into a policy where it's proponents can say we don't have to give up any freedoms (in fact, why do freedoms matter anyway?) and yet if we listened to them then no one would have died or had long covid! Can someone make sense of this latest thread from Deepti?

Other than stricter border restrictions (which I'm not too much against) the wishful thinking is that her brigade would have been right all along if only for other measures we could take to reduce impact on population- that don't have to do with restrictions.

Surely they can't have it both ways?

https://mobile.twitter.com/dgurdasani1/status/1403990026065793024

 

[NorthKent1989]

How interesting! You may be of an age when the virus is likely to have very little effect on you, if you get it, but how can you "decide" it would barely affect you?

I wonder if you've considered that if someone doesn't have the vaccine, they are more likely to become infected, and therefore there's a greater chance they can pass it on to other people, which will spread it more than if they had been vaccinated. Or is that another thing you decided wouldn't happen?

How interesting that even if you’ve had both jabs you can still not only catch Covid but pass it on too! How very interesting indeed!

Yes I have considered all angles for your information and haven’t you heard that Covid has a 99% rate of survival? Plus I’m in my early 30s, most people I know who have had Covid recovered and said the symptoms were minor, so it’s not a case of me “deciding” it won’t effect me badly, it’s a hard fact.

What point are you trying to prove exactly?

 

[NSEFAN]

Work from home has been a farce.

When I tried to change a ferry booking last year with P&O it was impossible to get in touch with them because their staff were all working from home.

When I wanted to collect a PC part same day because I needed it to keep my PC working, the company said they weren't doing collections because their staff were working from home.

When I tried to contact National Express regarding a coach booking I couldn't, again, because their staff are working from home.

Get your staff back in the office if you can't offer your normal service. It's not an acceptable excuse anymore.

Any job which involves sitting in front of a PC really ought to be as functional in an office or in a home. What you describe sounds like an implementation issue rather than the concept itself. Customer phone calls already have to go through a call handling system anyway, so there is no reason why office phones couldn't divert to Skype, Teams, etc on staff laptops.

 

[35B]

Any job which involves sitting in front of a PC really ought to be as functional in an office or in a home. What you describe sounds like an implementation issue rather than the concept itself. Customer phone calls already have to go through a call handling system anyway, so there is no reason why office phones couldn't divert to Skype, Teams, etc on staff laptops.

Sadly not true. Many of those systems are quite highly configured, and changing them to support access over the internet rather than an office network is often not trivial. You then need to repeat that for the other systems that those staff need to access to do their jobs - bearing in mind that all of this has to be done securely.

It’s impossible to simplify to say it’ll happen to xyz type of firm, as it depends on the tools they use and where their investment is. Indeed, smaller firms using subscription based services may be better off than large organisations that have invested heavily in large scale systems based on a particular model - systems that can easily take a year or more to replace, at costs in 8 figures.

Thankfully Dr Taylor is not a SAGE member, and having again listened to the interview it's not clear to me that his reasons for wanting lockdowns to continue were purely personal / selfish. JHB is a dire interviewer and nothing more than a populist hack who needed a dissenting opinion to be meat for her colosseum act.

I completely disagree with Dr Taylor's stance but it pays to bear in mind the nuance of some of these opinions. This whole thing is getting really binary and particularly unpleasant a la Brexit.

Indeed. And it’s noticeable that some of the protagonists are the same - with the same tendency toward dangerous and tendentious over-simplification as we’ve seen in that debate. With JHB one of the worst.

 

[philosopher]

Zero covid now has morphed into a policy where it's proponents can say we don't have to give up any freedoms (in fact, why do freedoms matter anyway?) and yet if we listened to them then no one would have died or had long covid! Can someone make sense of this latest thread from Deepti?

Other than stricter border restrictions (which I'm not too much against) the wishful thinking is that her brigade would have been right all along if only for other measures we could take to reduce impact on population- that don't have to do with restrictions.

Surely they can't have it both ways?

https://mobile.twitter.com/dgurdasani1/status/1403990026065793024

Zero Covid can only ever work if the rest of the world is going to adopt zero Covid. If the UK adopts zero Covid then it can only open borders with counties that have eliminated Covid. Most third world counties have no chance of eliminating Covid and the rest of Europe and North America is unlikely to follow such a policy. So pursuing such a policy would mean the UK is permanently closed most of the world.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm not going to have my second part of the Vaccination. It has been absolutely pointless if stuff doesn't get eased. I will resume my treatment when it unlocks freedom. Right now, I cannot do anything that an un-vaccinated can't do. First it was the Vulnerable. Then over 60. Then over 50. Then over 40. See the pattern? Lied to.

But, as the Government is basing the strategy for removal of restrictions on the success of the vaccination programme (albeit not explaining what makes ‘success’ in specific numerocal terms) ... those that don’t have the vaccination are in a small way contributing to the potential extension of restrictions. CuttOMG your nose of to spite your face...

Nothing at all, you can still catch Covid even if you’re vaccinated

It’s the same if you are doubled jabbed - what’s your next move

I’ve had my two jabs but I can still catch it and still pass it on.

But there is a very much smaller chance of catching it or passing it on if you have had both jabs. That’s the point.

 

[VauxhallandI]

But, as the Government is basing the strategy for removal of restrictions on the success of the vaccination programme (albeit not explaining what makes ‘success’ in specific numerocal terms) ... those that don’t have the vaccination are in a small way contributing to the potential extension of restrictions. CuttOMG your nose of to spite your face...







But there is a very much smaller chance of catching it or passing it on if you have had both jabs. That’s the point.

So what exactly is the difference in chance? Where is this magical line in the sand of probability that is OK?

I've also had two jabs, I don't know what you're trying to get at referring to a secret percentage chance or why you might think I've worked one out.

You are saying that the chap should have the second jab; so you are saying that after two that’s the line where it’s all ok? Is that every person in the country? You have a magic number of chance of infection otherwise you wouldn’t be saying he must have his second jab.

 

[Bald Rick]

The most recent study, published on Wednesday in Nature here shows a 61% / 66% reduced chance of infection after one dose (AZ / Pfizer), and 79/80% reduced chance of infection after two doses. (Article too long to quote).

Larger reductions are observed for the chances of developing symptomatic infection.

So, the point of having the vaccine is that after the second dose, you are 79/80% less likely to catch the infection and pass it on to someone else, whether you realise you have caught it or not.

 

[NorthKent1989]

But, as the Government is basing the strategy for removal of restrictions on the success of the vaccination programme (albeit not explaining what makes ‘success’ in specific numerocal terms) ... those that don’t have the vaccination are in a small way contributing to the potential extension of restrictions. CuttOMG your nose of to spite your face...







But there is a very much smaller chance of catching it or passing it on if you have had both jabs. That’s the point.

Okay but you can still catch it and pass it on regardless, either way 99% chance of surviving it

 

[Bald Rick]

Okay but you can still catch it and pass it on regardless, either way 99% chance of surviving it

See above. You have a much better chance of not catching it if you have the vaccine, and a far better chance of not dying from it. A 1% chance of death from an illness that can be caught through infection, doesn’t sound like great odds to me.

 

[VauxhallandI]

The most recent study, published on Wednesday in Nature here shows a 61% / 66% reduced chance of infection after one dose (AZ / Pfizer), and 79/80% reduced chance of infection after two doses. (Article too long to quote).

Larger reductions are observed for the chances of developing symptomatic infection.

So, the point of having the vaccine is that after the second dose, you are 79/80% less likely to catch the infection and pass it on to someone else, whether you realise you have caught it or not.

So if the population is 100, what is the breakdown of people with no vac, one vac and two vaccines that means all this is over?

 

[RuralRambler]

Work from home has been a farce.

When I tried to change a ferry booking last year with P&O it was impossible to get in touch with them because their staff were all working from home.

When I wanted to collect a PC part same day because I needed it to keep my PC working, the company said they weren't doing collections because their staff were working from home.

When I tried to contact National Express regarding a coach booking I couldn't, again, because their staff are working from home.

Get your staff back in the office if you can't offer your normal service. It's not an acceptable excuse anymore.

I agree, same with University staff too. There are entire empty buildings at my son's Uni where staff havn't been on campus for just over a year now. Not just teaching staff, but also support staff, such as IT support, mental health support, etc. The staff car parks have been empty throughout (doesn't stop the Uni putting parking fines on non staff cars parked in empty staff car parks though!). There's no reason at all why "some" teaching staff couldn't be on campus, subject to being spread out according to social distancing. But to have entire blocks of offices closed and locked for over a year is crazy. (I'm talking about non practical/lab based blocks of course such as economics/management, humanities, Maths, English, etc where there's been no face to face "teaching" at all and teaching and support staff are all working from home). Same with their college common rooms, games rooms, etc - all locked up because there are no staff on campus to open/lock them nor monitor them. There's one common room attached to a college bar/restaurant which is "open" because it is physically impossible to lock it, but the Uni have taken away the snooker cues, balls, table tennis bats/balls, etc and the xbox controller, so the students can't use any of it (again, all removed because no Uni staff available to hand out/take back the equipment).

 

[duncanp]

I agree, same with University staff too. There are entire empty buildings at my son's Uni where staff havn't been on campus for just over a year now. Not just teaching staff, but also support staff, such as IT support, mental health support, etc. The staff car parks have been empty throughout (doesn't stop the Uni putting parking fines on non staff cars parked in empty staff car parks though!). There's no reason at all why "some" teaching staff couldn't be on campus, subject to being spread out according to social distancing. But to have entire blocks of offices closed and locked for over a year is crazy. (I'm talking about non practical/lab based blocks of course such as economics/management, humanities, Maths, English, etc where there's been no face to face "teaching" at all and teaching and support staff are all working from home). Same with their college common rooms, games rooms, etc - all locked up because there are no staff on campus to open/lock them nor monitor them. There's one common room attached to a college bar/restaurant which is "open" because it is physically impossible to lock it, but the Uni have taken away the snooker cues, balls, table tennis bats/balls, etc and the xbox controller, so the students can't use any of it (again, all removed because no Uni staff available to hand out/take back the equipment).

Having "mental health support" staff "working from home" is beyond stupid.

The whole purpose of mental health support staff is that they can be there to talk to students in an emergency, and there is no reason why mitigating measures such as masks, distancing and screens etc. couldn't be put in place.

Taking away snooker cues and table tennis bats is just mean and spiteful - there is no reason why these pieces of equipment can't be sanitised before a new person uses them. If it requires a member of university staff to be there and hand them out, then they should get off their backside and be there where they are needed.

It seems that many people at your son's Uni have got too used to lounging around at home getting paid to do as little work as possible.

If I was a student paying more than £9,000 in tuition fees, I would be questioning ".well what am I getting for my money?..."

Universities need to remember that students are paying customers and should be treated as such.

 

[NorthKent1989]

See above. You have a much better chance of not catching it if you have the vaccine, and a far better chance of not dying from it. A 1% chance of death from an illness that can be caught through infection, doesn’t sound like great odds to me.

But very few people my age have actually died of Covid and as you say it’s a 1% chance of death, the average age of death from Covid is 82, so i think I’ll take my chances

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Zero covid now has morphed into a policy where it's proponents can say we don't have to give up any freedoms (in fact, why do freedoms matter anyway?) and yet if we listened to them then no one would have died or had long covid! Can someone make sense of this latest thread from Deepti?

Other than stricter border restrictions (which I'm not too much against) the wishful thinking is that her brigade would have been right all along if only for other measures we could take to reduce impact on population- that don't have to do with restrictions.

Surely they can't have it both ways?

https://mobile.twitter.com/dgurdasani1/status/1403990026065793024

Never read her stuff before but you have prompted me to take a a look but i realise why i haven't before!

Anyhow seems shes an advocate for elimination as the only viable course of action but doesn't explain how to do that other than keep the borders closed, wear mask more ventilation and fix test&trace - sounds like defacto Labour position so they must their advisor. No reference to the consequences of an elimination strategy or how long it would take.

hogwash

 

[westv]

It can't be that long before we get to find out from "sources" what will be the exact news to be given to us tomorrow evening.

 

[102 fan]

I’ve had my two jabs but I can still catch it and still pass it on. Is there a secret exact percentage chance that you have worked out that is ok to have or will the goal posts just move on from there again?

At the risk of repeating myself, but if you can still catch it and pass it on you're not immune.


'Vaccine

noun

a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.'