Should travel abroad be restricted to vaccinated people only?

[Chester1]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/vaccine-progress-approval-and-deployment.211585/

“EU not looking after its citizens” - “EU stopping their vaccinations from disappearing”

The press arguing for both ends of a story for a change........

I don't think they are opposite ends of the story. The EU didn't look after their citizens now the national governments are scrambling to limit the damage through any means. The Italian government made the right decision to block the export. Its leaders like Macron who should be ashamed, bashing AZ for political gain at the cost of undermining take up.

Cyprus has announced that Brits will be allowed in from 1st May if they have had their second dose of an EMA approved vaccine at least a week prior to arrival. Depending on the actions of the UK government that should salvage the summer season for older Brits but would be useless for half the population. Even if children are exempted the majority of parents won't have had their second dose before the school holidays. They should need their first by mid to late April and we are likely be be jabbing people in their late 40s then.

Cyprus is pitching itself towards the wealthier end of the market but other countries will inevitably accept one vaccine, and some just a recent negative test result. At the end of last I wrote off travel to anywhere in the EU until 2022. I had a good holiday in Italy last year after the Foreign Office advised against non essential travel to Italy and will go abroad again as long as its legal. If work authorise me working from a quarantine hotel then if necessary I would choose it over a domestic holiday.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I don't think they are opposite ends of the story. The EU didn't look after their citizens now the national governments are scrambling to limit the damage through any means. The Italian government made the right decision to block the export. Its leaders like Macron who should be ashamed, bashing AZ for political gain at the cost of undermining take up.

Cyprus has announced that Brits will be allowed in from 1st May if they have had their second dose of an EMA approved vaccine at least a week prior to arrival. Depending on the actions of the UK government that should salvage the summer season for older Brits but would be useless for half the population. Even if children are exempted the majority of parents won't have had their second dose before the school holidays. They should need their first by mid to late April and we are likely be be jabbing people in their late 40s then.

Cyprus is pitching itself towards the wealthier end of the market but other countries will inevitably accept one vaccine, and some just a recent negative test result. At the end of last I wrote off travel to anywhere in the EU until 2022. I had a good holiday in Italy last year after the Foreign Office advised against non essential travel to Italy and will go abroad again as long as its legal. If work authorise me working from a quarantine hotel then if necessary I would choose it over a domestic holiday.

So another case where individual governments used their sovereignty to make a decision for them which apparently isn’t allowed.

Therefore the Italian action is a success that was achievable whilst being a member of the EU.

 

[Yew]

Cyprus has announced that Brits will be allowed in from 1st May if they have had their second dose of an EMA approved vaccine at least a week prior to arrival. Depending on the actions of the UK government that should salvage the summer season for older Brits but would be useless for half the population. Even if children are exempted the majority of parents won't have had their second dose before the school holidays. They should need their first by mid to late April and we are likely be be jabbing people in their late 40s then.

Vaccine apartheid, wonderful...

 

[yorkie]

Vaccine apartheid, wonderful...

I can see why countries have these entry policies; it's better than going to Australia!

Where I seriously question it is the requirement to have the booster dose, as at this stage that's hardly anyone and even by May it will only be older or very vulnerable people

 

[Bantamzen]

Vaccine apartheid, wonderful...

I suspect that won't last too long. Cyprus is perhaps slightly less reliant on tourism at the moment with the Russian money flowing in thanks to the gas exploration of their cost, but give it time. When the tourists don't turn up, so will the heat from the businesses.

 

[Yew]

I suspect that won't last too long. Cyprus is perhaps slightly less reliant on tourism at the moment with the Russian money flowing in thanks to the gas exploration of their cost, but give it time. When the tourists don't turn up, so will the heat from the businesses.

The thing that really upsets me about this, is that all the talk seems to only care about this in terms of discriminating against anti-vaxxers. And seems to completely ignore the fact that it is literally impossible for me to be vaccinated currently; the government has a monopoly on supply, and have chosen to administer supplies in a certain manner.

The underlying agreement with giving out vaccines in an age specific manner, is the understanding that there will be no discrimination due to not yet being eligible for one. In my current demographic, under the rules proposed by Cyprus, I would be ineligible to visit (or at risk of severe inconvenience) until perhaps as late as September.

 

[Bantamzen]

The thing that really upsets me about this, is that all the talk seems to only care about this in terms of discriminating against anti-vaxxers. And seems to completely ignore the fact that it is literally impossible for me to be vaccinated currently; the government has a monopoly on supply, and have chosen to administer supplies in a certain manner.

The underlying agreement with giving out vaccines in an age specific manner, is the understanding that there will be no discrimination due to not yet being eligible for one. In my current demographic, under the rules proposed by Cyprus, I would be ineligible to visit (or at risk of severe inconvenience) until perhaps as late as September.

And its for these reasons that I don't support these vaccine requirements. Before widespread vaccination is complete, many younger people will be denied holidays, and once its widespread there's actually no need for vaccination requirements anyway. Its just a political tool being used to "prove" that individual governments are "doing something", Nothing more.

 

[AlterEgo]

The thing that really upsets me about this, is that all the talk seems to only care about this in terms of discriminating against anti-vaxxers. And seems to completely ignore the fact that it is literally impossible for me to be vaccinated currently; the government has a monopoly on supply, and have chosen to administer supplies in a certain manner.

The underlying agreement with giving out vaccines in an age specific manner, is the understanding that there will be no discrimination due to not yet being eligible for one. In my current demographic, under the rules proposed by Cyprus, I would be ineligible to visit (or at risk of severe inconvenience) until perhaps as late as September.

It’s still not “apartheid” that you can’t go on holiday to Cyprus in May and might have to wait until September.
This is the route out. It does seem very arbitrary, I agree, but it’s the light at the end of the tunnel nonetheless.

 

[Yew]

It’s still not “apartheid” that you can’t go on holiday to Cyprus in May and might have to wait until September.

I suppose apartheid would imply there there are alternatives available for the unvaccinated.

This is the route out. It does seem very arbitrary, I agree, but it’s the light at the end of the tunnel nonetheless.

There is still time to be hit by a train before we reach the end of it.

 

[Cdd89]

It’s still not “apartheid” that you can’t go on holiday to Cyprus in May and might have to wait until September.
This is the route out. It does seem very arbitrary, I agree, but it’s the light at the end of the tunnel nonetheless

I agree this time around, but we cannot have a situation where travel is indefinitely restricted for the young because they will always be at the back of the queue for whatever the next vaccine booster is. If that happens, it becomes essential that any vaccines mandatory for travel become available privately.

 

[Yew]

If that happens, it becomes essential that any vaccines mandatory for travel become available privately.

Or that we stop the age-discrimination inherent in our distribution plan.

 

[AlterEgo]

I agree this time around, but we cannot have a situation where travel is indefinitely restricted for the young because they will always be at the back of the queue for whatever the next vaccine booster is. If that happens, it becomes essential that any vaccines mandatory for travel become available privately.

You can pretty much bet on that being the case. I doubt that the requirements for vaccines will last much longer than a year. The really important thing is that travel becomes normalised again, and you will see some of the panic slip away.

 

[Domh245]

Or that we stop the age-discrimination inherent in our distribution plan.

Or the world puts it's collective sensible head on, stops chasing 99% efficacy against each and every variant, and accepts that anyone who's been given any of the thus-far approved covid vaccines is highly unlikely to die or be hospitalised of covid on their watch, and similarly unlikely to spread covid in their communities

The really important thing is that travel becomes normalised again, and you will see some of the panic slip away.

The danger is normalising it amongst a backdrop of 'jab & go' or 'test to enable' - getting out of that mindset might be tricky, particularly if people then set their sights on some other moderate illness

 

[35B]

The thing that really upsets me about this, is that all the talk seems to only care about this in terms of discriminating against anti-vaxxers. And seems to completely ignore the fact that it is literally impossible for me to be vaccinated currently; the government has a monopoly on supply, and have chosen to administer supplies in a certain manner.

The underlying agreement with giving out vaccines in an age specific manner, is the understanding that there will be no discrimination due to not yet being eligible for one. In my current demographic, under the rules proposed by Cyprus, I would be ineligible to visit (or at risk of severe inconvenience) until perhaps as late as September.

And Cyprus are not party to that "deal"; this is their approach to their border. There's a fine line (see utility discounts for those who can pay on direct debit for an example) between granting privileges to those who qualify for a benefit, and discriminating against those who do not qualify for that privilege. That boundary, to me, lies around whether it affects the ability to lead a normal day to day life; being unable to pursue a discretionary activity doesn't meet my understanding of anything resembling apartheid.

Or that we stop the age-discrimination inherent in our distribution plan.

Age discrimination that is designed to help the phasing be as efficient as possible. Today's news about issues in the prioritisation of asthma sufferers shows how much confusion can be caused by adding in a subjective element.

 

[Yew]

And Cyprus are not party to that "deal"; this is their approach to their border.

They are, however, party to the Council of Europe resolutions.

There's a fine line (see utility discounts for those who can pay on direct debit for an example) between granting privileges to those who qualify for a benefit, and discriminating against those who do not qualify for that privilege.

The government does not restrict people from using direct debit thought

That boundary, to me, lies around whether it affects the ability to lead a normal day to day life; being unable to pursue a discretionary activity doesn't meet my understanding of anything resembling apartheid.

So discretionary activities do not count as a normal life?

Age discrimination that is designed to help the phasing be as efficient as possible.

I have no issue with prioritising the vulnerable, however I do take issue when restrictions on basic liberties are made on the back of something that the government does not allow me to have.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I agree this time around, but we cannot have a situation where travel is indefinitely restricted for the young because they will always be at the back of the queue for whatever the next vaccine booster is. If that happens, it becomes essential that any vaccines mandatory for travel become available privately.

Given that at some point people will get the offer of the vaccine, I don't think you can claim travel is being "indefinitely restricted" for the young.
Especially in this country at least, even the young will have had it within a few months (although I accept there is the open question of under 18's).

And in terms of becoming available privately, if semi regular boosters / annual jabs etc end up being needed, I think we can pretty much assume 100% that they will be available privately. Why wouldn't they be?

 

[AlterEgo]

I have no issue with prioritising the vulnerable, however I do take issue when restrictions on basic liberties are made on the back of something that the government does not allow me to have.

I cannot support domestic restrictions based on some sort of "domestic vaccine passport". However, if Cyprus decides they will not allow visitors who are unvaccinated that is entirely their call as a sovereign state. There is no absolute right to visit any foreign country.

 

[Cdd89]

And in terms of becoming available privately, if semi regular boosters / annual jabs etc end up being needed, I think we can pretty much assume 100% that they will be available privately. Why wouldn't they be?

Because if the hysteria continues as it has been, if vaccines are reformulated to be more effective against the latest set of common mutations, there will be calls from some to distribute such more effective vaccine to the entire population in priority order, from most to least vulnerable; and an argument will be made that “saving lives” is more important than “enabling travel”.

Hopefully I’m wrong there, and I’m glad to see you don’t think it’s likely!

 

[Yew]

However, if Cyprus decides they will not allow visitors who are unvaccinated that is entirely their call as a sovereign state.

Unless it breaches international agreements, which is does.

 

[Spamcan81]

And its for these reasons that I don't support these vaccine requirements. Before widespread vaccination is complete, many younger people will be denied holidays, and once its widespread there's actually no need for vaccination requirements anyway. Its just a political tool being used to "prove" that individual governments are "doing something", Nothing more.

Younger people will be able to have a holiday, just not to countries where having been vaccinated is a prerequisite.

 

[Bantamzen]

Younger people will be able to have a holiday, just not to countries where having been vaccinated is a prerequisite.

Sadly we don't know that. The young have already given up a lot to "save" the older generations now planning their holidays, maybe its time to give something back?

 

[Spamcan81]

Sadly we don't know that. The young have already given up a lot to "save" the older generations now planning their holidays, maybe its time to give something back?

Don't give me that old rubbish. We've all given up a lot to save each other. Plenty of places to visit in the UK for a holiday so perhaps the "young" should explore their own country until such time as they can holiday abroad.

 

[Bantamzen]

Don't give me that old rubbish. We've all given up a lot to save each other. Plenty of places to visit in the UK for a holiday so perhaps the "young" should explore their own country until such time as they can holiday abroad.

Old rubbish? A lot of young people have taken serious financial hits, even lost their jobs. Others have worked tirelessly at work through the crisis whilst the generations whilst their elders have been sitting at home pretending to work whilst watching Netflix. And don't even get me started on the impact on education.

And their reward? Oh they get to sit in a soggy field, or a crappy B&B in good old Blighty whilst those elders jump on planes to enjoy the Eastern Mediterranean sun? Still its probably their own fault, they should have been born sooner right?

 

[Chester1]

Old rubbish? A lot of young people have taken serious financial hits, even lost their jobs. Others have worked tirelessly at work through the crisis whilst the generations whilst their elders have been sitting at home pretending to work whilst watching Netflix. And don't even get me started on the impact on education.

And their reward? Oh they get to sit in a soggy field, or a crappy B&B in good old Blighty whilst those elders jump on planes to enjoy the Eastern Mediterranean sun? Still its probably their own fault, they should have been born sooner right?

It does annoy me when older people think that younger people have a year of their lives damaged for their own protection. It is to protect 50+ and a small number of under 50s with specific health conditions. Some acceptance that younger people have taken a hit for the greater good would be nice.

Plenty of younger Brits had sufficient holidays in the UK as children to last a life time. The UK is nice for short breaks but for the majority its poor option for a main holiday due to the climate and lack of new cultural experiences and the high cost and low quality of accommodation.

I am very confident that two doses will not be mandatory for several short haul destinations this summer. Cyprus is focusing on older (richer) Brits but other countries will settle for younger (poorer) Brits and set their requirements accordingly. My recommendations for short haul holiday options this summer are Montenegro, Albania and Macedonia. They will try to grab a larger section of the market this summer and target young and middle aged Brits. I think Spain is likely to accept people who have had their first dose.

 

[AlterEgo]

Don't give me that old rubbish. We've all given up a lot to save each other. Plenty of places to visit in the UK for a holiday so perhaps the "young" should explore their own country until such time as they can holiday abroad.

I’m afraid the burden on the young has been very severe.

One of the things the pandemic has inspired me to be is a bit more selfless, because I certainly don’t want my generation to end up like the boomers. I hope never to ever find myself lecturing people in their 20s about sacrificing their relationships, jobs, future prospects, their education and generally losing a year or more of their most fruitful years for the prolongment of my healthy retirement.

Post-pandemic we must return a good dividend on the newly rediscovered freedom to the young, who paid for it very heavily.

 

[Chester1]

I’m afraid the burden on the young has been very severe.

One of the things the pandemic has inspired me to be is a bit more selfless, because I certainly don’t want my generation to end up like the boomers. I hope never to ever find myself lecturing people in their 20s about sacrificing their relationships, jobs, future prospects, their education and generally losing a year or more of their most fruitful years for the prolongment of my healthy retirement.

Post-pandemic we must return a good dividend on the newly rediscovered freedom to the young, who paid for it very heavily.

I think boomers want the respect their parents generation got but they don't deserve it.

There is an absolute massive difference between a vaccine that has been approved for use by the medical bodies in the country (even on an emergency basis) compared to some random person suggesting that a drug that has had some good trials but hasn't been approved for use by the medical bodies should be used to treat covid.


We are talking about medicines that are safe and established for use in particular circumstances and are usually pretty tightly controlled (even regular painkillers like paracetamol have legal restrictions around what can and can't be sold and what can and can't be advertised). There is absolutely an argument to be made that suggesting people take medications for purposes of which they aren't licensed for is naive at best and potentially dangerous at worst.


Which goes back to some of the other conversations we have had - most people will agree that social media platforms reserve the right to determine what is deleted or banned from their platform at some level. The real question is where is that line, and most people will have a different opinion of where that line fits. Whilst opinions are great, the ones that reality matter are those of law enforcement and those of the people in those companies who decide their policies.


In terms of medical decisions, people delegate to the relevant experts and medical bodies (given that most people are no where near medical experts).
Those experts and medical bodies have said they are happy that the vaccines are safe and people should have them.
Sure in a minority of cases the medical experts may be wrong (I'm sure one of the replies to these comments will be tabloid headlines about mistakes made by doctors), but in the vast majority of cases a doctor is more able to determine the best course of medical intervention than the general public is able to.


I think it is pretty much assured that we will be able to have some kind of holidays this year. Hell we did last year and that was without any vaccine.

Whilst I agree with the general idea of your comments, I'm not sure the hyperbole really helps. Most people working from home have not been "pretending to work whilst watching netflix", and holidays in the UK can absolutely be just as fun and exciting as holidays abroad (it doesn't have to be "sitting in a soggy field" or in a "Crappy B&B" - we do have some amazing places to visit in this country too!). If anything most people I know cannot wait for any kind of holiday and some are specifically planning trips to "sit in a soggy field" for the summer!

I had 18 years of holidaying in the UK. The number of "amazing places" are relatively few and they are usually dependent on the weather being OK. Even the summer it is often not. I have visited a vast swathe of Britains tourist destinations and have no love for them. Our country has many good sides, our holidays options are not one. Most people who only holiday in the UK do so because they crave the familiar, lets not pretend its because we are a country blessed with many great tourist destinations. The extortionate cost of British tourist accommodation means its cheaper to fly abroad than stay in the UK in anything with walls.

For me, saying I shouldn't complain about no foreign holidays is the equivalent of giving a little Englander who never holidays abroad the option of no holiday or only a foreign one. I would be about as comfortable in Cornwall as a 60 something little Englander would be in Morocco.

I will have fewer options than someone who has been double vacccinated but as long as its legal I will go abroad, against travel advice and quarantining if necessary.

 

[Darandio]

Don't give me that old rubbish. We've all given up a lot to save each other. Plenty of places to visit in the UK for a holiday so perhaps the "young" should explore their own country until such time as they can holiday abroad.

I'd be interested to know what has been given up compared to the younger generation. Is bingo one of them?

 

[Domh245]

I think it is pretty much assured that we will be able to have some kind of holidays this year. Hell we did last year and that was without any vaccine.

In some ways the presence of the vaccine is working against it now. With it now being here and going into people's arms, countries are increasingly fearful of any 'stumbles' at this point. The fact that there talk and actual proposals for vaccine passports and the like quite clearly shows that there'll be more restrictions than last year when countries were in a "begrudgingly accept some level of covid to keep economy floating" phase and vaccines were far from a certainty. I'm certain that 2021 will see harsher restrictions on foreign travel (and holidays) before returning somewhat to normal in 2022

 

[LAX54]

I think boomers want the respect their parents generation got but they don't deserve it.



I had 18 years of holidaying in the UK. The number of "amazing places" are relatively few and they are usually dependent on the weather being OK. Even the summer it is often not. I have visited a vast swathe of Britains tourist destinations and have no love for them. Our country has many good sides, our holidays options are not one. Most people who only holiday in the UK do so because they crave the familiar, lets not pretend its because we are a country blessed with many great tourist destinations. The extortionate cost of British tourist accommodation means its cheaper to fly abroad than stay in the UK in anything with walls.

For me, saying I shouldn't complain about no foreign holidays is the equivalent of giving a little Englander who never holidays abroad the option of no holiday or only a foreign one. I would be about as comfortable in Cornwall as a 60 something little Englander would be in Morocco.

I will have fewer options than someone who has been double vacccinated but as long as its legal I will go abroad, against travel advice and quarantining if necessary.

There are some great places in the UK, but 90% are dependent on good weather to make the most of them, that is what is not guaranteed in the UK, which is why people go to Spain, Florida etc, as they are 99% certain of getting warm sunny weather.
I can see many going if the Countries concerned allow it, regardless of what the FCO say !

 

[35B]

Unless it breaches international agreements, which is does.

What status does a Council of Europe resolution actually have, though?