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2024 Tube Stock (Siemens Inspiro)

Wolfie

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But without the open platform (and second staircase) which is the KEY element of the Borismaster design, even if it's no longer being used
Which was a complete waste of time and money.

That was just something that Boris insisted upon to pander to nostalgia. I'm not sure it was ever really practical to bring that mode of operation back. A monumental waste of money and resources.
Absolutely.
 
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Bletchleyite

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The rear door (with a door on it) and rear staircase are actually advantageous in terms of reducing dwells on busy routes, and I would expect to see them feature once again as a fairly standard thing (though potentially minus the middle door and with wheelchair ramp at the front) once electrics develop sufficiently towards independent rear wheels with no axles and hub motors and allow for buses to be 100% low floor throughout.

Having said that, if your route is that busy, a single deck articulated bus is better.
 

modernrail

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The rear door (with a door on it) and rear staircase are actually advantageous in terms of reducing dwells on busy routes, and I would expect to see them feature once again as a fairly standard thing (though potentially minus the middle door and with wheelchair ramp at the front) once electrics develop sufficiently towards independent rear wheels with no axles and hub motors and allow for buses to be 100% low floor throughout.

Having said that, if your route is that busy, a single deck articulated bus is better.
Not sure articulated buses are better in London, whereas articulation might be perfect for the underground (to keep this on topic!).

I love the two staircase design and agree, I think the ideal design for a London bus might be get off at the back, using the back staircase. No middle door. Get on at front and up using front staircase. This would give good passenger flow and a good nod to the Routemaster. Only concern is can you get a wheelchair on at the front. Losing the middle door should allow a lot more usable space downstairs, much of which could be for wheelchairs, luggage and pushchairs. Maybe even bikes!

You can probably also put a one way gate on a back door whilst still having a nice wide exit to get lots of people off. Driver could control that gate to help wheelchairs off easier.
 

Wolfie

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Not sure articulated buses are better in London, whereas articulation might be perfect for the underground (to keep this on topic!).

I love the two staircase design and agree, I think the ideal design for a London bus might be get off at the back, using the back staircase. No middle door. Get on at front and up using front staircase. This would give good passenger flow and a good nod to the Routemaster. Only concern is can you get a wheelchair on at the front. Losing the middle door should allow a lot more usable space downstairs, much of which could be for wheelchairs, luggage and pushchairs. Maybe even bikes!

You can probably also put a one way gate on a back door whilst still having a nice wide exit to get lots of people off. Driver could control that gate to help wheelchairs off easier.
How, on a full bus, would a wheelchair get off?
 

Mojo

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How, on a full bus, would a wheelchair get off?
I guess the same way wheelchair users get on and off buses in the rest of the country. By the front door.
 

philthetube

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If the mock-up is correct, the bit in bold won’t apply on the Piccadilly line during the changeover period between old and new fleets as the new fleet is shown to have Scharfenberg couplers instead of the Wedgelock couplers used on all existing LU stock.
Where different stock operate on the same line, in tunnels, emergency couplers are carried, or certainly used to be, 59/72 stock is a good example.
Thanks for the examples

Why does the driver of a rescuing unit need to access (via nose end door) the unit being rescued ? To rescue a 717 in the Norther City Line the driver of the rescuing unit doesn't need access to the failed unit. Unless the push out is of a train that was dead and uncrewed ?
Lots of reasons for needing the end door, passenger evacuation, both to the track and to another train. all trains carry some form of ladder to evacuate to the track, also loads of reasons why staff may need to cross between trains.
 

Dstock7080

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Does having it painted rather than brushed metal help with graffiti removal?
In the late-80s it was found the aluminium finish was porous so that paint soaked in, having a painted surface with multiple lacquer layers helps prevent damage.
realised conversation still with handrails
 
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Nym

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Nice to see that the recommendations of the various communities for accessible travel have been heeded with their advice to use low thermal conductivity grab rails to assist in passengers with reduced grip strength and central nervous system function be able to hold on more easily. "cold" grab rails prevent several groups with disabilities from gripping properly. This was discussed at length for the 1972TS RVAR programme so TfL / LUL / TfL Engineering are aware of this, but it seems that yet again, nothing is being done to upset the status quo on anything that doesn't look shiny or different.

On that topic, although paint does make it look "nice" it does also, if a applied as a thick polyester coating, reduce the thermal conductivity of the grab rails, and hence make it better for these groups.

This is just one of around 50 "small change" ideas that came from a focus group in the early 2010s during the specification stages for Central and Bakerloo RVAR, and as far as I can tell, basically nothing has been taken on from it, other than perhaps the removal of tip up seats from wheelchair areas, but that was more to do with the air supply modules on 1972TS than any disability group reasons.
 

Mikey C

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Nice to see that the recommendations of the various communities for accessible travel have been heeded with their advice to use low thermal conductivity grab rails to assist in passengers with reduced grip strength and central nervous system function be able to hold on more easily. "cold" grab rails prevent several groups with disabilities from gripping properly. This was discussed at length for the 1972TS RVAR programme so TfL / LUL / TfL Engineering are aware of this, but it seems that yet again, nothing is being done to upset the status quo on anything that doesn't look shiny or different.

On that topic, although paint does make it look "nice" it does also, if a applied as a thick polyester coating, reduce the thermal conductivity of the grab rails, and hence make it better for these groups.

This is just one of around 50 "small change" ideas that came from a focus group in the early 2010s during the specification stages for Central and Bakerloo RVAR, and as far as I can tell, basically nothing has been taken on from it, other than perhaps the removal of tip up seats from wheelchair areas, but that was more to do with the air supply modules on 1972TS than any disability group reasons.
I'd be quite annoyed if tip up seats were no longer fitted to the wheelchair/pushchair area, as they provide a lot more seating capacity

The Northern 95 stock for example have EIGHT extra seats per carriage than the Jubilee 96 stock due to having tip up seats, I really don't see how making 8 more people stand (the perch seats on the 96 stock are useless) is a good thing.
 

Goldfish62

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Nice to see that the recommendations of the various communities for accessible travel have been heeded with their advice to use low thermal conductivity grab rails to assist in passengers with reduced grip strength and central nervous system function be able to hold on more easily. "cold" grab rails prevent several groups with disabilities from gripping properly. This was discussed at length for the 1972TS RVAR programme so TfL / LUL / TfL Engineering are aware of this, but it seems that yet again, nothing is being done to upset the status quo on anything that doesn't look shiny or different.

On that topic, although paint does make it look "nice" it does also, if a applied as a thick polyester coating, reduce the thermal conductivity of the grab rails, and hence make it better for these groups.
This has been specified on TfL buses for many years, by way of a "matt crackle" finish, but as the Underground has always considered Buses to be an inferior entity it's never caught on on the Underground.
 
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AM9

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I'd be quite annoyed if tip up seats were no longer fitted to the wheelchair/pushchair area, as they provide a lot more seating capacity

The Northern 95 stock for example have EIGHT extra seats per carriage than the Jubilee 96 stock due to having tip up seats, I really don't see how making 8 more people stand (the perch seats on the 96 stock are useless) is a good thing.
If they are being omitted to prevent able passengers clogging up facilities and space specifically provided for disabled passengers, then making 8 people stand for which would probably be no more than 10-20 minutes.
 

JaJaWa

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If they are being omitted to prevent able passengers clogging up facilities and space specifically provided for disabled passengers, then making 8 people stand for which would probably be no more than 10-20 minutes.
Surely there are a far larger amount of less able passengers that would need to sit down than are in a wheelchair (which is not to say wheelchair spaces should be reduced in any way).
 

AM9

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Surely there are a far larger amount of less able passengers that would need to sit down than are in a wheelchair (which is not to say wheelchair spaces should be reduced in any way).
Although I've never seen it myself, others here have reported instances where flip-down seats have been used by normal passengers and refusing to move from them when a passenger with a need for the space boards. It's unreasonable behavioiur like that that makes it necessary to prevent such unsociable behaviour in the future.
 

Snow1964

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If they are being omitted to prevent able passengers clogging up facilities and space specifically provided for disabled passengers, then making 8 people stand for which would probably be no more than 10-20 minutes.

My experience is seeing lot more people with walking sticks or crutches than wheelchair users.

Which rather suggests need to provide as many seats as possible, so they can sit down.

The problem is the tube charges the same for standing or sitting, so really relying on someone with a seat being charitable to give it up (and of course they might have travelled 15-20 minutes before getting a seat). If someone wants 8 spaces then get into all sorts of debate about being reasonable.
 

Nym

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I'd be quite annoyed if tip up seats were no longer fitted to the wheelchair/pushchair area, as they provide a lot more seating capacity

The Northern 95 stock for example have EIGHT extra seats per carriage than the Jubilee 96 stock due to having tip up seats, I really don't see how making 8 more people stand (the perch seats on the 96 stock are useless) is a good thing.
Except on 1972TS RVAR design, there isn't space for tip up seats and the standard wheelchair turning space in the Special Trailers. Even if it was in an A or D trailer, it would only be possible on one side of the partition, due to the Air Supply Module(s). And I know for a fact there is no motivation to re-design these.
 

AM9

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My experience is seeing lot more people with walking sticks or crutches than wheelchair users.

Which rather suggests need to provide as many seats as possible, so they can sit down.

The problem is the tube charges the same for standing or sitting, so really relying on someone with a seat being charitable to give it up (and of course they might have travelled 15-20 minutes before getting a seat). If someone wants 8 spaces then get into all sorts of debate about being reasonable.
The difference is that a person with crutches or a walking stick can still get on a tube trains, and most of the time a passenger will give up a seat if only to avoid that person overbalancing onto a seated passenger. A wheelchair user despite the progressive provision of level access from street level, the area reserved for them will be non-existent because there isn't any unobstructed floorspace for them to enter.
 

rebmcr

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The difference is that a person with crutches or a walking stick can still get on a tube trains, and most of the time a passenger will give up a seat if only to avoid that person overbalancing onto a seated passenger. A wheelchair user despite the progressive provision of level access from street level, the area reserved for them will be non-existent because there isn't any unobstructed floorspace for them to enter.
Indeed, under legislation, people have the right to provisions that allow them to use the same services that able-bodied people enjoy.

On a jam-packed tube train, those able to stand are denied the 'proper' 0.25m² space that they would be able to turn around in. It would seem equivalent that the 'proper' turning space for a wheelchair would be similarly unavailable (though this is of course a sad situation, the laws of physics lack sympathy).
 

Mikey C

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The difference is that a person with crutches or a walking stick can still get on a tube trains, and most of the time a passenger will give up a seat if only to avoid that person overbalancing onto a seated passenger. A wheelchair user despite the progressive provision of level access from street level, the area reserved for them will be non-existent because there isn't any unobstructed floorspace for them to enter.
If the train is fairly empty, then it's reasonable to demand that people in the tip up seats get up to allow a wheelchair in. If the train is rammed, it just isn't going to happen, as there simply isn't the space for the wheelchair to get on, never mind reaching the wheelchair space

The vast majority of the Tube in central London isn't realistically accessible for wheelchair users anyway, the number of step free stations on the "classic" lines is minimal. The Bakerloo being one of the worst.
 

43066

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The vast majority of the Tube in central London isn't realistically accessible for wheelchair users anyway, the number of step free stations on the "classic" lines is minimal. The Bakerloo being one of the worst.

Yes. I must say, in all my years of using the tube, I don’t think I’ve once seen a wheelchair user on the network.
 

Recessio

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I didn't realise they were talking about handrails either, I meant the exteriors of the trains anyway :lol:
 

Bayum

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The vast majority of the Tube in central London isn't realistically accessible for wheelchair users anyway, the number of step free stations on the "classic" lines is minimal. The Bakerloo being one of the worst.
Not hugely accessible for disabled non-wheelchair uses either for that matter.
 

thomalex

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The Bakerloo trains might last till 2040 due to TFL having no money
They'll be able to charge more for the line being a museum. Seriously though if that ends up being the plan there will be a fairly hefty and expensive refurb needed at which point you'd have to ask if it's not more cost effective to bring in new trains.
 

Jonah Kemp

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They'll be able to charge more for the line being a museum. Seriously though if that ends up being the plan there will be a fairly hefty and expensive refurb needed at which point you'd have to ask if it's not more cost effective to bring in new trains.
It's unlikely but could happen... The trains will most likely go in the 30s
 

Wolfie

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They'll be able to charge more for the line being a museum. Seriously though if that ends up being the plan there will be a fairly hefty and expensive refurb needed at which point you'd have to ask if it's not more cost effective to bring in new trains.
Absolutely. I was on the Bakerloo line last night and the trains felt decrepit.
 

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