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Smoking on Trains

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Springs Branch

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I can only imagine what experiences on InterCity routes would’ve been like when you were allowed to smoke.
As a non-smoker, entering a hazy Mk.2 smoking coach could certainly be an assault on the senses.

But at the time when smoking was less of a niche activity than it is today, and only a minority of places had smoking restrictions, this was not an unusual experience in day-to-day life.

Whether it was an inter-city train, busy pub, top deck of a bus at rush hour, works canteen or just an office where one or more of your co-workers chain-smoked at their desk - as a non-smoker I had to accept it as a fact of life that any clean clothes I was wearing would quickly stink of tobacco smoke.

I remember when smoking was first banned in pubs, in some of the smaller, less salubrious pubs I frequented, the long-standing atmosphere of stale cigarette smoke was replaced by the sickly smell of stale beer, mixed with a whiff of urine from the toilets, which had previously been disguised.
Maybe if smoking was still allowed on XC Voyagers, no-one would be offended by the smell of toilets.

The issue isn't smokers, it's arseholes that just happen to smoke. And the trouble with those sorts of people is if they're prepared to smoke on a train there is a higher chance they're prepared to punch the guard if they confront them about it.
A friend who's a former policeman once summarised it as: "not all smokers are arseholes, but all arseholes smoke"
 
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Recessio

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I remember reading once that the former Lib Dems leader Charles Kennedy got the BTP called on him when he was caught smoking.

I think he tried to claim that by leaning out the window, he was technically outside and not in breach of the ban, quite crafty :lol:
 

Tractor86

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I’ve noticed the problem on a couple of Northern services.Around Liverpool South Parkway it appeared to be school kids doing it out of the window of a sprinter. Nobody said anything.
Also noticed it on the Preston-Manchester services at certain times of day. The guards always come and try to figure out who it is but nobody is forthcoming with an answer.
 

riceuten

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Not sure if things have changed in the ensuing years, but in 2017 Smoking was permitted on platforms in Germany, only in designated smoking areas. Not sure of the rules on trains though. A year later on the French sleeper there was no smoking on board but smoking was permitted on platforms during the longish stopovers at both Toulouse and Bordeaux.
Nope, still operating. It's utterly pathetic, but the tobacco lobby have considerable power in Germany. They can smoke in designated areas marked out in white paint.
 

LSWR Cavalier

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Nope, still operating. It's utterly pathetic, but the tobacco lobby have considerable power in Germany. They can smoke in designated areas marked out in white paint.
Seen staff smoking too, outside/next to the marked areas. How do they think people will regard their attempts to enforce other rules?

The new German government plans to legalise cannabis, should bring in billions in tax.

What is known about health damage by vaping?
 

SCDR_WMR

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Has this several times, normally for people smoking joints near the drivers cab. Personally, I take a zero tolerance to smoking in general and regularly remove passengers from trains for it.

Certainly in the case of smoking joints, there is a real safety reason why you would do so given enough exposure could impare your driving ability and also risk failing a drugs test should an incident happen.

As for spotting the culprit, a quick look through the vestibule windows normally helps to find the individual responsible, especially if you're the other end of the carriage as they think they have time to hide/put out but the smell of any form of smoking tends to hang around.
 

Horizon22

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Has happened to me in the brief time I worked on board ("could the on-board staff please contact the driver"). The smoke detector had gone off in the toilet but by the time I'd got to the middle of the 12-car train, there was nobody to be seen and the passengers didn't say anything either. Quickly told the driver and off we go (already approaching a station). It also might be stopped if the passcom has also been pressed - again for some reason this seemed to happen in the toilet a lot

This reminds me of a station announcement I once heard .. "if the customer on platform X doesn't stop smoking then I will come and put it out with the fire extinguisher"

Oh that's always good fun "May I remind passengers smoking is not permitted on trains or on stations and that includes everyone waiting for the train on Platform 2"
 

SCDR_WMR

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I honestly think one of the biggest weapons you can have on a train is the PA, you can happily single someone out as a reason for the stoppage/delay as long as your language and tone are respectful.

Certainly had numerous occasions were other passengers have escorted a rogue passenger from the train to end a delay
 

Tomos y Tanc

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A friend who's a former policeman once summarised it as: "not all smokers are arseholes, but all arseholes smoke"
You are a lucky man indeed if you have gone through life without meeting a non-smoking arsehole!

We could begin with those 'wellness' freaks who loathe smokers and meat-eaters but refuse to get vaccinated or wear masks on public transport.
 

EbbwJunction1

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As I said in the original post, I wasn't in the coach where the alarm went off, so I don't know what actually happened to the offender if they caught him / her. The next stop was Bristol Parkway, but again I didn't see any activity there - although I should also say that I wasn't looking!
 

janahan

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There are still poisonous substances in many vaping fluids.

The base fuilds that count for most (95% +) of the fluid in virtually most/all vapes are PG (propylene glycol) and VG (vegetable glycerine). Both are generally harmless in their own right (note comparitivly, anythign can be harmful under certain conditions), and in fact have certain anti viral/ anti bacterial properties, and are sometiems used in the airconditioning in hostpitals to kill harmful microbes, as well as some asthma inhalers as well as the "smoke/fog" machines in discos, and movie effects.

Nicotine on its own is not super harmful, and doesnt carry well in second hand vape.

Which leaves only the flavours, and getting them form a reputable seller/brand does minimise the harm they have, and many (especially british based) to work hard to check their products, there are some rogue flavours around, sadly. Again, unlike smoke, it usually is far more harmful for the vaper than the second hand vape.

The main reason why vaping is often not allowed in the same vein as smoking, is that if someone vapes, it can encourage smokers to smoke (or do worse smoking based sins)

What is known about health damage by vaping?
Not 100% known, though one thing for sure, its a magnitude less harmful than smoking (as long as good quality liquids, and a decent vape unit is used)
 

LSWR Cavalier

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Of course the long-term effects of vaping can not be known until several decades have passed, just like with tobacco smoking. Everyone knows now that smoking tobacco is harmful, but was that consensus 50-60 years ago?
 

moleman212

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Exactly the same goes for fully guarded trains where there’s only a driver in the front unit and the guard can’t walk through to patrol the entire train due to a lack of gangway doors*.

Off topic but do LNER Azumas formed of 2 units only have one guard as well? I just ask as I was in the front unit from Kings Cross to Wakefield last week and there was no ticket check...when it's exceptionally rare to not have a ticket check leaving KGX
 

Bensonby

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Interestingly, my reading of the railway byelaws is that for smoking to be prohibited on an open air part of the railway (I.e. many platforms on the network) there needs to be a nearby sign or a sign at the entrance to that part of the station. This isn’t the case in many places, but the TOCs seem to interpret it as a blanket ban on smoking on railway property and it seems to be widely complied with by the public. It is exceptionally rare, in my experience, to witness someone smoking on a platform.
 

baz962

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Interestingly, my reading of the railway byelaws is that for smoking to be prohibited on an open air part of the railway (I.e. many platforms on the network) there needs to be a nearby sign or a sign at the entrance to that part of the station. This isn’t the case in many places, but the TOCs seem to interpret it as a blanket ban on smoking on railway property and it seems to be widely complied with by the public. It is exceptionally rare, in my experience, to witness someone smoking on a platform.
I think it depends on the network. I saw it everywhere at my old toc , smoking cigarettes and joints and vaping too. At my current toc I haven't seen it yet.
 

APT618S

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Of course the long-term effects of vaping can not be known until several decades have passed, just like with tobacco smoking. Everyone knows now that smoking tobacco is harmful, but was that consensus 50-60 years ago?
Don't know about consensus, but the 1908 Children Act made it illegal to sell cigarettes to children under 16, and in the 1914-1918 war they were known as "coffin nails". So I presume harmful effects have been known for 100+ years.
 

Peter Sarf

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Of course the long-term effects of vaping can not be known until several decades have passed, just like with tobacco smoking. Everyone knows now that smoking tobacco is harmful, but was that consensus 50-60 years ago?
Tobacco firms suppressed the facts about smoking.
Don't know about consensus, but the 1908 Children Act made it illegal to sell cigarettes to children under 16, and in the 1914-1918 war they were known as "coffin nails". So I presume harmful effects have been known for 100+ years.
Known about but kept quiet.
 

181

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Has anyone had a similar incident, either as a passenger or staff, please? If so, what happened next?
Just over a year ago I was travelling from Stansted to Liverpool Street on one of the new (class 745?) units when it came to a halt somewhere in the Lee Valley. The driver announced that it was because someone had been smoking, and after a few minutes we continued on our way.
I can only imagine what experiences on InterCity routes would’ve been like when you were allowed to smoke.

As a non-smoker, entering a hazy Mk.2 smoking coach could certainly be an assault on the senses.
What was particularly annoying was open coaches that were half smoking and half not, with only a minimal partition between the two halves so the smoke could drift along the whole carriage, and being in a no-smoking seat was no guarantee of clean air.
Everyone knows now that smoking tobacco is harmful, but was that consensus 50-60 years ago?
Conclusive proof of the link with cancer dates from the early 1950s, but the harmfulness of smoking wasn't a new idea; on the other hand even once it was established it presumably took a while to filter through to the general public. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_tobacco#History.
 

185143

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I'm sure someone was smoking on the 150 I've just been on, there was a group of chavs using part of the carriage as a lounge, several of them looking guilty when I walked past to get into the next carriage.
 

infobleep

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It’s not just about whether it’s open or not - if the platform is busy then other passengers, who quite rightly expect a smoke free environment, are forced to put up with it. Most people who desperately want to smoke on a railway station have the wit to move away to a quiet end of the platform. Unfortunately some don’t.
I wouldn't mind a smoke-free environment wherever I happen to be, even in the outdoor places where it ha legal.
 

Peter Mugridge

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What was particularly annoying was open coaches that were half smoking and half not, with only a minimal partition between the two halves so the smoke could drift along the whole carriage, and being in a no-smoking seat was no guarantee of clean air.
The West Coast Mk 3s were particularly illogical... they had 25% no smoking / 25% smoking / 50% no smoking in that order - within a single carriage...
 

JonathanH

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The West Coast Mk 3s were particularly illogical... they had 25% no smoking / 25% smoking / 50% no smoking in that order - within a single carriage...
Presumably that was before they introduced fixed formation train sets around the end of the 1980s from which time a whole coach could be set aside as the smoking coach.
 

Scotrail314209

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I feel for the train crew who would have to walk through a smoke filled carriage constantly. It really would not be pleasant.
 

6Gman

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Don't know about consensus, but the 1908 Children Act made it illegal to sell cigarettes to children under 16, and in the 1914-1918 war they were known as "coffin nails". So I presume harmful effects have been known for 100+ years.
A local doctor in Cheshire (who I was researching for other reasons) was taking post-mortem lung samples around to stress the dangers of smoking in the 1920s/30s.
 

Peter Mugridge

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Presumably that was before they introduced fixed formation train sets around the end of the 1980s from which time a whole coach could be set aside as the smoking coach.
I don't think so - quite a lot were like that right up until the abolition of smoking on board.
 

Spartacus

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Of course the long-term effects of vaping can not be known until several decades have passed, just like with tobacco smoking.

My biggest worry about vaping is that, unless it's recently been changed, the liquids are practically unregulated, falling in-between regulations for foodstuffs and smoking products. Even if they are now regulated I doubt many of the local corner shops selling them care, so many have been done for selling fake or untaxed cigarettes they're not going to care one bit about vaping liquids.
 

WesternBiker

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There are still poisonous substances in many vaping fluids.
It's a lot less harmful than smoking, but it is not risk-free. There have been an increasing number of deaths in the US from vaping - usually relatively sudden and often in young adults (under 35). This article is from the Center for Disease Control in the US: https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/basic_information/e-cigarettes/severe-lung-disease.html
  • As of February 18, 2020, a total of 2,807 hospitalized EVALI cases or deaths have been reported to CDC from all 50 states, the District of Columbia, and two U.S. territories (Puerto Rico and U.S. Virgin Islands).
    • Sixty-eight deaths have been confirmed in 29 states and the District of Columbia (as of February 18, 2020).
(EVALI = E-cigarette / vaping associated lung injury)

It appears some people are much more sensitive to some of the substances and of course vaping - by definition - delivers repeated and concentrated doses to lung tissue. There's research under way to try to understand better what the triggers and co-factors might be. This article from the British Medical Journal highlights one case, where a young person went into anaphylactic shock. https://www.bmj.com/content/367/bmj.l6473 (it's a pay view site but the summary is there.)

Severe allergic reaction to vaping prompts warning from doctors

A Nottinghamshire paediatrician has reported a severe immune reaction in a 16 year old boy who had been smoking e-cigarettes. The incident comes amid growing concerns at the safety of the products, following reports of an increasing number of deaths among users in the US.

The case study in the Archives of Disease in Childhood warns that the fluid in e-cigarettes may cause a potentially life-threatening lung inflammation in those who are susceptible to it.
 

EbbwJunction1

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Thanks for all of your comments ... I seem to have opened up several lines (no pun intended!) of discussion.
 

XAM2175

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My biggest worry about vaping is that, unless it's recently been changed, the liquids are practically unregulated, falling in-between regulations for foodstuffs and smoking products.
Not of immediate relevance, I admit, but I was interested to note that vaping never became anywhere near as common in Australia not out of any deliberate government action but rather because all nicotine-containing substances other than 'traditional' smoking products were already regulated as pharmaceuticals - meaning that vape liquids containing nicotine are legally, but totally by chance, classed as prescription-only drugs.
 

Butts

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Just to add a little insight for those who don't smoke, vaping is not the same as smoking a cigarette.

I imagine it is somewhat akin to methadone for a heroin addict merely a substitute not the real thing. Of course for those who have never smoked they won't realise this and fortunately will not have an experienced comparison to relate to.

For the sheer "kick" a Cigarette delivers there is no alternative.

Benson & Hedges Gold formerly manufactured in Northern Ireland by the sadly departed Gallaher Ltd and now JTI in some far flung Eastern European outpost is unsurpassable in both quality and taste. This is a premium tobacco product that retails in the UK for north of £13 packet, probably nearer £14.

Thankfully most European Countries have a more relaxed approach to excise duty and they are available to travellers for £5 or less per packet.
 
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