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South harrow sidings work

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pethadine82

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Can someone shed any light what they are doing in South Harrow. They are elongating the length of the sidings rather than the width. Any reasons for this unless they plan to park a few s stocks over night as well. Many thanks
 
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Mawkie

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It's to accommodate the new stock when it arrives. From the top of my head, I believe the works will create two extra roads too.
 

100andthirty

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the current fleet comprises 86 trains. The fleet on order comprises 94 trains with an option for at least four more. Hence the need for more siding space.
 

Dstock7080

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Thanks for the correction.

Do you know (or could you speculate) why there is a need to double the capacity of these particular sidings?
The work being done now is to provide stabling capacity while Northfields and Cockfosters depots are rebuilt.
Half of Northfields will be closed at a time and therefore the trains need to be somewhere.
 

Mawkie

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The work being done now is to provide stabling capacity while Northfields and Cockfosters depots are rebuilt.
Half of Northfields will be closed at a time and therefore the trains need to be somewhere.
Thanks!

the current fleet comprises 86 trains. The fleet on order comprises 94 trains with an option for at least four more. Hence the need for more siding space.
I have to ask.... Will 98 trains be able to run on the Pic without problems? Is there a maximum amount of units that is 'optimal' before things start getting clogged up?
 

SynthD

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That will be discovered when they run the new trains and signalling. It includes a few that will always be in depots. I guess the four is for taking Ealing Broadway from the District.
 

Dstock7080

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I thought they could not just extend the sidings because of the Chiltern tunnel and problems with weight, has this been resolved?
The initial 12 sidings will only be a few metres longer than the current ones to accommodate the longer trains.
A second stage of making each of the 12 roads able to take 2 trains and placing a concrete cap over the Chiltern tunnel is still being considered.
 
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Ex LT

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Thanks for that clears up the confusion I suppose a concrete cap will be the only way they can by the issue.
 

AlbertBeale

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The initial 12 sidings will only be a few metres longer than the current ones to accommodate the longer trains.
A second stage of making each of the 12 roads able to take 2 trains and placing a concrete cap over the Chiltern tunnel is still being considered.

If the plan is to double the number of sidings - never mind doubling their length later perhaps - that'll mean losing a lot of trees on the land behind some "nice" houses on a private road. Do TfL even have ownership of enough of that land to double the number of sidings? From (admittedly rather ancient) memory, their boundary wasn't much beyond the area currently taken up with the sidings.
 

Dstock7080

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If the plan is to double the number of sidings - never mind doubling their length later perhaps - that'll mean losing a lot of trees on the land behind some "nice" houses on a private road. Do TfL even have ownership of enough of that land to double the number of sidings? From (admittedly rather ancient) memory, their boundary wasn't much beyond the area currently taken up with the sidings.
A lot of trees have already been felled on the site in recent weeks.
The existing site boundary will contain the new 12 sidings.
If the second stage of lengthening those 12 is proceeded with it will encroach onto Metropolitan Open Land
 

AlbertBeale

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A lot of trees have already been felled on the site in recent weeks.
The existing site boundary will contain the new 12 sidings.
If the second stage of lengthening those 12 is proceeded with it will encroach onto Metropolitan Open Land

Aha - thanks - in all the years I used to be around that station frequently, it never occurred to me that the wooded area beside the long-existing sidings had been owned by the railway all the time. Maybe there was a plan for more sidings there in the first place, when the line was extended that far in the early 20th century, so they acquired enough land then but only ever used half of it?
 

Harsig

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Aha - thanks - in all the years I used to be around that station frequently, it never occurred to me that the wooded area beside the long-existing sidings had been owned by the railway all the time. Maybe there was a plan for more sidings there in the first place, when the line was extended that far in the early 20th century, so they acquired enough land then but only ever used half of it?

This image below shows the railway's property ownership in the area. It comes from a publically accessible map of TfL property ownership which can be found here:

TfL Property Asset Register Public Web Map

Fx7JlxO.jpg
 

AlbertBeale

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This image below shows the railway's property ownership in the area. It comes from a publically accessible map of TfL property ownership which can be found here:

TfL Property Asset Register Public Web Map

Fx7JlxO.jpg

Hi - I'm confused by this... The dotted line can't be ownership, since it includes the back garden of a schoolfriend of mine... as well as a chunk of the local rec. And several expensive houses...

If the blue darker-shaded part is ownership, then that implies the railway have always had several times the space there than they've ever used. Strange.

Furthermore, an earlier poster said that the doubling in length of the sidings (to stable two trains per siding), as opposed to adding extra sidings alongside the existing ones, would encroach on Metropolitan Open Land. (Which I guess is a kind of inside-London Green Belt type of designation?) This presumably relates to the historic use of that land, irrespective of ownership. (Ownership rights do not of themselves necessarily allow the owner to do what they want with land.) So if the doubling in length is really on the cards, will TfL need to go through a procedure (which will surely be contested) to de-designate that land?
 

SynthD

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The dotted line is more of an area of influence. I hope they’d plan to replant trees where possible, it’s not a full conversion of use of land.
 

Dstock7080

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Furthermore, an earlier poster said that the doubling in length of the sidings (to stable two trains per siding), as opposed to adding extra sidings alongside the existing ones, would encroach on Metropolitan Open Land. (Which I guess is a kind of inside-London Green Belt type of designation?) This presumably relates to the historic use of that land, irrespective of ownership. (Ownership rights do not of themselves necessarily allow the owner to do what they want with land.) So if the doubling in length is really on the cards, will TfL need to go through a procedure (which will surely be contested) to de-designate that land?
 

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swt_passenger

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The dotted line is more of an area of influence. I hope they’d plan to replant trees where possible, it’s not a full conversion of use of land.
As you say, (and as per the map key) it’s an “LU zone of influence” and represents an area where LU would want third party developers to consult them regarding stuff like building foundations, in order to make sure a development doesn’t affect the existing infrastructure. It’s not an ownership boundary.
 

bluegoblin7

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Can the S stock use the sidings?

No. Indeed, S stock are not permitted to travel between Rayners Lane and Ealing Common via South Harrow outside of Engineering Hours and an Incompatible Train Movements Procedure (ITMP) due to signal system immunisation issues.
 
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No. Indeed, S stock are not permitted to travel between Rayners Lane and Ealing Common via South Harrow outside of Engineering Hours and an Incompatible Train Movements Procedure (ITMP) due to signal system immunisation issues.
Thanks. I do remember seeing A stocks in the sidings but wasn't sure if the S stock could.
 

Snow1964

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Thanks!


I have to ask.... Will 98 trains be able to run on the Pic without problems? Is there a maximum amount of units that is 'optimal' before things start getting clogged up?

It’s more to do with reversing trains, than the central frequency. There is little advantage in running every train to Cockfosters, or running exactly half the trains to Rayners Lane/Uxbridge

You need to be able to empty the trains and reverse them, without delaying following train, and in an ideal world would have more 3 road stations with middle track for terminators.

As an example if crossovers were installed between South Ealing and Northfields, might be able to use both middle platforms at Northfields for reversing, with through trains able to switch to outside of islands to go round them. But don’t think this is planned.
 
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swt_passenger

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It’s more to do with reversing trains, than the central frequency. There is little advantage in running every train to Cockfosters, or running exactly half trains to Rayners Lane/Uxbridge

You need to be able to empty the trains and reverse them, without delaying following train, and in an ideal world would have more 3 road stations with middle track for terminators.

As an example if crossovers were installed between South Ealing and Northfields, might be able to use both middle platforms at Northfields for reversing, with through trains able to switch to outside of islands to go round them. But don’t think this is planned.
Yes, all the previously proposed changes to provide more turn round capacity seem to be at the western extremities, ie the takeover of the Ealing Broadway service from the District. Will nothing change at the “Eastern” end of the route?
 

Dstock7080

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What's a swimming pool road?
The rails are suspended above the lowered depot floor, allowing walk-around access to the train.
 

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Mawkie

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It’s more to do with reversing trains, than the central frequency. There is little advantage in running every train to Cockfosters, or running exactly half the trains to Rayners Lane/Uxbridge

You need to be able to empty the trains and reverse them, without delaying following train, and in an ideal world would have more 3 road stations with middle track for terminators.

As an example if crossovers were installed between South Ealing and Northfields, might be able to use both middle platforms at Northfields for reversing, with through trains able to switch to outside of islands to go round them. But don’t think this is planned.
Seems an uplift to 27 trains per hour (up from 24) is planned - as you say, finding somewhere to reverse them will be key.
 

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