• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

South Yorkshire buses discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

Galaxy

Member
Joined
3 Oct 2006
Messages
105
Note the interesting consultation taking place for predominately, but not exclusively, the Rotherham area.

https://www.travelsouthyorkshire.com/Feb2019/

A rework of the town network for Rotherham and an increase in the X78 from 15 minutes to 12 minutes, noting that this is to partially replace other routes being cut back or withdrawn.

Presumably this sees a PVR reduction at OG with an increase at DO?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

johnnychips

Established Member
Joined
19 Nov 2011
Messages
3,679
Location
Sheffield
I thought the X78 was every twelve minutes not that long ago anyway. Just started using it for a new job, and it is fifteen. Lots of single deckers on it now, which never used to be the case.

Had a horror before I read the link that they were going to reroute it through some estate in Rotherham, but that honour goes to the Ravenfield bus instead. Already the diversion through Conisbrough is really time-consuming at peak hours. Wish the X77 along the A630 was still with us, but I’m showing my age!
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
A combination of predictable and depressing!

Some real positives in Rotherham (an eight minute cross-town service from Parkgate to the Hospital, an eight minute cross-town service from Maltby to Meadowhall).

The X74 group of services looks a good use of resources (given that Midland Road closed, so there’s a lot of light running from Olive Grove to/from Rotherham – why not use those vehicles to provide a contra-peak service to the office parks and Advanced Manufacturing Park in the land between Sheffield and Rotherham?). There’s currently the 22a/22c/72, but the new timetable looks beefed up in comparison. Edinburgh has a few peak expresses to employment centres on the edges of the city (Bush, Gyle, RBS, Gas HQ) but most other cities lack these.

Dinnington gets its best service to Sheffield in many a year (four/hour) – probably the highest frequency since Wigmores/ Northern Bus came off the road.

First serving Hoyland for the first time since (their predecessor) SYT/ Mainline provided some journeys on the (Yorkshire Traction) 227 to Barnsley?

First keeping up the nonsense of using the same number (X1) for both termini in Maltby (Salisbury & Quilter).

Some nostalgia (the old Wigmores/ Northern Bus 208 comes back as a Sheffield – Brinsworth – Dinnington route).

First’s Dearne Valley adventure (the big fight back against Stagecoach’s incursions in Sheffield), previously cut back from a ten minute service to Barnsley to a fifteen minute service that doesn’t go beyond Wath – now reduced to a half hourly service on a Saturday. Seems a long time since the 55-plate B7RLEs (ex-Glasgow) brightened up Barnsley Bus Station with yellow ducks painted on their side.

Some “positives that aren’t quite as positive as they look” (e.g. the X78 came down from ten minutes to fifteen minutes but now goes up to every twelve – but I thought that part of the justification for a fifteen minute service was to co-ordinate with Stagecoach services from Conisbrough to Doncaster?). A bigger priority would be double deckers replacing the Streetlites. Going from fifteen to twelve is an improvement but makes it harder to remember the times and to co-ordinate with other routes.

(for those outside the area – the X78 used to be operated by Rotherham Geminis/ Streetdecks; that allowed shifts to be concentrated on the route – e.g. a driver might do Rotherham – Sheffield – Rotherham – Doncaster – Rotherham – Sheffield – Rotherham as a duty… but then Midland Road closed and the route had to move to a depot at one extreme of the route – so Doncaster operate it but that means a return to Sheffield is too short for one duty but two returns to Sheffield are too much, so it interworks with local Doncaster services to bring driver duties up to a reasonable level – but Leger Way don’t have sufficient double deckers to facilitate this so the once-busy route gets mainly single deckers because Donny lack bigger buses – even on days of the regular Northern Rail strikes, they’ve been using single deckers)

So Sheffield – Meadowhall/ Rotherham goes from a current ten minute service (X1) and a fifteen minute service (X78) to a fifteen and twelve minute service (Monday to Friday) with a ten and twelve minute frequency on Saturdays. Bit badly co-ordinated. But then I understand why the X1 to Sheffield has been cut because the PTE won’t want too much competition with their TramTrain…

It’s probably hard to argue with the thinning out of the Rotherham local stuff – classic Death Of A Thousand Cuts stuff – how much longer until First give up on all the dead mileage and abandon the town to TM Travel/ Powells etc? But then First seem to be taking on bits of services that TM are scrapping (31, 227), so if a low cost operator like TM can’t break even running Solos then how long will First keep these services going?

There are some areas that bus companies just don't know what to do with. Brinsworth/ Catcliffe is one of them. It's less than ten miles from Sheffield City Centre but with a golf course/ airport/ marshalling yard/ industrial estate/ Police HQ*/ motorway in between (depending on your vintage), so there’s no one obvious route (and the complication of whether to divert via Meadowhall).

So the operators (SYT, Mainline, First) chop and change the routes every few years between west of the golf course (in the 1980s it was the 24 and 208, later the 130, the 68, briefly the 74, now the 208 returns) and route east of the golf course (the SYT 221, the Sheafline 134, the Mainline 100, the First A1, the 132, the current 72/74). It’ll change back in a few years though – it always does.

Generally a negative set of changes (with the usual First trick of disrupting existing services to cover for the withdrawal of another service – e.g. diverting the 114 and 115 to cover for the cutting of the 111/112 in East Dene – inconveniencing everyone), but I guess the biggest loser is Waverley – First seemed to have a good arrangement with the 72/74 providing a decent frequency to the new housing developments there – but the frequencies are being reduced (and the Meadowhall link cut) before they’ve had a chance to settle down.

Shades of Endcliffe and the UniversEighty (where they started a route with a high frequency as the Uni flats were being built, but then reduced and reduced it once they were open with thousands of Students living there). Good ideas but not the staying power to see them evolve.

* - for those outside the area, the Police building is genuinely on Letsby Avenue
 

johnnychips

Established Member
Joined
19 Nov 2011
Messages
3,679
Location
Sheffield
A big problem, and I’m sure that this is not just South Yorkshire, is that as usage declines, services are cut back, and then direct services are diverted to serve estates/settlements that once had their own services. As a consequence, travel times between places are increased, making it less attractive.

We’ve already talked about the X78 diverting through Conisbrough, and the demise of the X77 which ran directly on the A630 years ago. But at least until a couple of years ago, the X78 ran the quickest route it could through Conisbrough. However, now it runs through the town and at a point about 800m from rejoining the A630, swerves left to serve the Maple Grove estate, adding at least five minutes.

Thurnscoe is quite a sizeable ex-pit village about six miles from Barnsley, which is its natural nearest service centre. You would have thought a reasonably direct bus would be available. But the half-hourly 219/219a goes via an estate in Darfield, then goes into Great Houghton and out again. The fastest journey I could find was 42 minutes. No doubt in the past Great Houghton would have had its own service.

As a final example - you can see I’ve had a week SY Connect+ ticket- I went from Crystal Peaks shopping centre to Rotherham. I thought there would be more demand than the hourly 27 service, but then you realise how close Rotherham is to Meadowhall! A five minute diversion through an estate in Beighton - OK - but then the bus goes to Swallownest, has a ten-minute ride round Aughton and arrives back in Swallownest at the opposite side of the road.

I think the point I am trying to make is that bus travel is increasingly the preserve of those who have no choice, or those for whom time is not an issue (mostly pensioners). It is less becoming a mode for people who want a quick direct journey.

No conclusion, just wonder if anybody has any thoughts.
 

Llandudno

Established Member
Joined
25 Dec 2014
Messages
2,199
Poor marketing and very little route branding in South Yorkshire.
Not much innovation either, could do with taking a leaf out of Trent-Barton’s book, the range of semi-fast and express services in and and around Nottingham and Derby is very impressive compared to the South Yorkshire area. Train services in South Yorkshire are pretty sparse as well, so plenty of opportunity you would have thought?
 

ChrisC

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2018
Messages
1,609
Location
Nottinghamshire
Diverting buses away from the main road to serve housing estates, industrial estates and superstores is becoming more and more common throughout the country. It is increasingly difficult trying to find relatively direct bus routes between major towns or cities. A journey that should be no more than 30 minutes easily becomes 1 hour with all these diversions away from the main direct route.
It’s really frustrating when the bus leaves the main road and goes all around a housing estate and not one person gets on the bus or leaves the bus during this diversion from the direct route. Also it often takes so long for the bus to be able get back into the main road because of heavy traffic especially if turning right.

Can’t people walk a short distance of a few hundred metres to and from the bus stop on the main road these days?
 

Galaxy

Member
Joined
3 Oct 2006
Messages
105
53143 off fleet for disposal
31141/31144 transferred OG-DO today. I’m told there’s 6 going on Doncaster’s PVR from Olive shortly as well as a couple from Doncaster earmarked for disposal, more fleet changes coming including 4 more B7 deckers from Olive
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
Poor marketing and very little route branding in South Yorkshire.
Not much innovation either, could do with taking a leaf out of Trent-Barton’s book, the range of semi-fast and express services in and and around Nottingham and Derby is very impressive compared to the South Yorkshire area. Train services in South Yorkshire are pretty sparse as well, so plenty of opportunity you would have thought?

There's not a huge number of areas for semi-fast/express services IMHO.

There are no "fast" roads into Sheffield other than the Parkway and possibly Penistone Road.

Maybe there's scope for a faster version of the 86/135 from High Green/ Chapletown into the city as an "express" service, but there's really not much population directly served in between (hence the 86 and 135 diverting into Parson Cross/ Grenoside etc).

There's been various attempts at an express from the Crystal Peaks area into town via the Parkway - currently the Stagecoach 72 provides this link (previously TM Travel tried the X26/X52, First have run their Killamarsh/ Harthill services that way too) but the frequent tram service is going to be hard to compete with.

Any "express" service using Ecclesall Road/ Abbeydale Road/ Chesterfield Road is going to be caught up in traffic.

The local trains have fares subsidised by more than the East Midlands examples that you give (e.g. I can get a return train from Doncaster into Sheffield for under a fiver if I'm happy to use Northern, who provide 60% of the trains on that line, and it can be £2.50 single just to go a medium distance on a bus inside Sheffield, so it's going to be hard for bus companies to persuade enough people to pay a realistic fare). Plus pensioners get free off-peak train and tram travel in South Yorkshire (which makes it harder for buses to compete).

Stagecoach have made an effort, e.g. the X17 from Barnsley to Matlock - the Gold double deckers provide competition to the train - but I'm not sure that there are a lot of other markets.

The range of "express" buses used to be better but the tram saw a lot of them cease (e.g. the X55 used to be every ten minutes to Halfway) or blew a big enough hole in the market to make them unviable (e.g. the X66/X67 to Stocksbridge worked until the Middlewood Trams offered Park & Ride and a connecting Stagecoach minibus every ten minutes). The Sheffield - Worksop expresses (e.g. X85, 727) couldn't compete with the train. Northern Bus tried a few versions of Dinnington - M1 - Meadowhall but that seemed a sparse market. The era of Stagecoach Express services like the 909 to Grimsby/ Hull seems a long time ago (now that TOCs have upped their game).

Where else would work?

I’m told there’s 6 going on Doncaster’s PVR from Olive shortly as well as a couple from Doncaster earmarked for disposal, more fleet changes coming including 4 more B7 deckers from Olive

Hopefully the 'deckers will help the (DO run) X78!
 

mic

Member
Joined
22 Mar 2015
Messages
420
Location
Mossley
former south yorkshire solo 53703 which went to Oldham last year seems to have dissappered from the latter
 

Galaxy

Member
Joined
3 Oct 2006
Messages
105
There's certainly a need for extra deckers at DO, but the way the interworking is for X78 now means you'll need a good 25 or so to ensure complete decker coverage.

We will lose some single deck B7s when the deckers arrive, but not sure whether these will replace the Streetlite running boards.
 

Robertj21a

On Moderation
Joined
22 Sep 2013
Messages
7,520
Every time I visit South Yorkshire I come away with a poor view of First. The condition and general appearance of their buses, particularly in Doncaster, is very poor - dirty and generally uncared for. That often reflects how the area is managed.
 

brompton rail

Member
Joined
28 Oct 2009
Messages
754
Location
Doncaster
South Yorkshire pensioners are entitled to free travel after 09.30 on buses and trams. There is no free travel by train, however by showing their bus pass Pensioners may purchase half price train travel on Northern only. Note that this only applies after 09.30 and travel in the evening peak needs a Peak time ticket. No train travel by EMT, XC or TPE is covered.
 

Galaxy

Member
Joined
3 Oct 2006
Messages
105
Two new green Streetdecks, one at Olive Grove and one at Doncaster have appeared today. The green is that of Leeds City but devoid of any branding.

Suspected to be on loan from Wrightbus for warranty repairs on other vehicles.
 

ivanhoe

Member
Joined
15 Jul 2009
Messages
929
Trouble is when you have a tram system, buses do not get the amount of planning and support from the the local councils. Liverpool City Region has a decent partnership with Arriva and Stagecoach and hence no decline in bus journeys.
 

DanTrain

Member
Joined
9 Jul 2017
Messages
753
Location
Sheffield
Trouble is when you have a tram system, buses do not get the amount of planning and support from the the local councils. Liverpool City Region has a decent partnership with Arriva and Stagecoach and hence no decline in bus journeys.
There is the new ‘Buses for Sheffield’ initiative in Sheffield, still not quite sure what it does though beyond some fancy branding?
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-47305455 - South Yorkshire

A review of how bus services are run across South Yorkshire has been ordered by the region's elected mayor.

The year-long process launched by Dan Jarvis, mayor of the Sheffield City Region, will examine why bus usage in the county has fallen.

Mr Jarvis said the review would also examine whether private bus companies were best placed to run services

Some red meat from Mr Jarvis, but will he just run into the same obstacles that similar proposals in Manchester/ Tyneside have had? If the threat of Burnham's plans for Manchester was enough to give First cold feet on t'other side of the Pennines, will this have similar affects upon the big operators in South Yorkshire?

(or will it all fizzle out after a couple of nice sounding press releases...)
 

Andyh82

Established Member
Joined
19 May 2014
Messages
3,536
I can imagine what the answers are now.

The fares are too high and the frequencies too low is what the passengers will say.

So if they franchise the buses, they can halve the fares, and double the frequency, or in reality they can’t do either without massive subsidy, subsidy that doesn’t exist.

There will also be a perception that the bus company are making massive Google sized profits.
 

Robertj21a

On Moderation
Joined
22 Sep 2013
Messages
7,520
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-47305455 - South Yorkshire



Some red meat from Mr Jarvis, but will he just run into the same obstacles that similar proposals in Manchester/ Tyneside have had? If the threat of Burnham's plans for Manchester was enough to give First cold feet on t'other side of the Pennines, will this have similar affects upon the big operators in South Yorkshire?

(or will it all fizzle out after a couple of nice sounding press releases...)


My quick response would be to get First to sell off the operation [I know they're trying !] and see how much better it could be under another operator.
 

_toommm_

Established Member
Joined
8 Jul 2017
Messages
5,855
Location
Yorkshire
I notice Rotherham Interchange has reopened - anyone up for a game of spot the difference?
 
Joined
7 Jan 2019
Messages
220
Location
West Midlands
Thinking of coming to Rotherham / Barnsley area later this month to find some ‘heritage traction’
From Stagecoach fleetlists, I notice Barnsley have some ALX300s in the main fleet, I assume are found on most town routes, and there’s some in reserve at Rawmarsh?. Any more info on these would be appreciated?

Moving to First, the area still has a lot of older stuff I see, including some B10BLEs, B7Ls and plenty of B7TLs. In particular, where can I find the B10BLEs, B7Ls and Plaxton President B7TLs based at Olive Grove (won’t be going to Doncaster I don’t think). Also I note that Powell’s have some PVLs and Tridents which would be nice to find

If anyone can assist with the types listed above, it would be very much appreciated !
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
20,038
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
Thinking of coming to Rotherham / Barnsley area later this month to find some ‘heritage traction’
From Stagecoach fleetlists, I notice Barnsley have some ALX300s in the main fleet, I assume are found on most town routes, and there’s some in reserve at Rawmarsh?. Any more info on these would be appreciated?

Moving to First, the area still has a lot of older stuff I see, including some B10BLEs, B7Ls and plenty of B7TLs. In particular, where can I find the B10BLEs, B7Ls and Plaxton President B7TLs based at Olive Grove (won’t be going to Doncaster I don’t think). Also I note that Powell’s have some PVLs and Tridents which would be nice to find

If anyone can assist with the types listed above, it would be very much appreciated !

For older First stuff, Doncaster is the place but as you’re not doing that, I’d suggest Rotherham for the B10BLEs
 
Joined
7 Jan 2019
Messages
220
Location
West Midlands
For older First stuff, Doncaster is the place but as you’re not doing that, I’d suggest Rotherham for the B10BLEs

Well I can do Doncaster just with Barnsley being the starting point, I will head across to Rotherham then go from there dependent on time. Is it all ALX B7s and B7Ls in Doncaster? I’m after the Presidents mainly but will take ALXs if you know what I mean
 

_toommm_

Established Member
Joined
8 Jul 2017
Messages
5,855
Location
Yorkshire
Well I can do Doncaster just with Barnsley being the starting point, I will head across to Rotherham then go from there dependent on time. Is it all ALX B7s and B7Ls in Doncaster? I’m after the Presidents mainly but will take ALXs if you know what I mean

ALX400s are often found on the Finningley buses (think it's the 57f????). Presidents are often on the 97/98 to Totley/Brook in Sheff.
 

johnnychips

Established Member
Joined
19 Nov 2011
Messages
3,679
Location
Sheffield
I wonder why a significant minority - say one in three - of First single deckers, certainly in Doncaster - not necessarily the newest ones - have WiFi but this is not at all advertised on the bus?
 

Statto

Established Member
Joined
8 Feb 2011
Messages
3,217
Location
At home or at the pub
Every time I visit South Yorkshire I come away with a poor view of First. The condition and general appearance of their buses, particularly in Doncaster, is very poor - dirty and generally uncared for. That often reflects how the area is managed.


Not only the buses, last time i was in South Yorkshire, [couple of years ago]caught a bus think i was First 38 Sheffield-Meadowhall, went down the back roads including Jenkin Road, i have a Merseytravel issued disabled ENCTS pass, which wouldn't work on the ticket machines, to get told by the driver they've been told by there depot managers to refuse ENCTS pases which don't clear the ticket machines, which is nonsense as even though my pass didn't work ticket machines on other First routes, i was ok to board without comment once the drivers checked my pass.
 

rg177

Established Member
Associate Staff
International Transport
Joined
22 Dec 2013
Messages
3,720
Location
Newcastle-upon-Tyne
From experience, the 81/82 on weekdays between Stannington/Hall Park Head and Millhouses/Dore is a treasure trove of old vehicles. Renowns, ALX400s and Presidents aplenty, though the Renowns often stray onto even the 120 in the evening peak every so often!

The 75/76 and 97/98 also have a decent selection.

Beware that on Sundays there's a lot of Streetlite only operation.
 
Joined
7 Jan 2019
Messages
220
Location
West Midlands
From experience, the 81/82 on weekdays between Stannington/Hall Park Head and Millhouses/Dore is a treasure trove of old vehicles. Renowns, ALX400s and Presidents aplenty, though the Renowns often stray onto even the 120 in the evening peak every so often!

The 75/76 and 97/98 also have a decent selection.

Beware that on Sundays there's a lot of Streetlite only operation.

Many Thanks! I had assumed the Renown’s were used in Rotherham, but with it all being run from Olive Grove now, I guess it doesn’t really make much difference what buses are allocated where. Will have a venture on the 81/82 then if I have time to do so, the few Stagecoach ALX300s in Barnsley/Rotherham area are my main priority, but would like to get some B7TLs and a Renown if possible
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top