Southern at Guildford - No longer operating?

[317663]

After doing some checks on the recent timetables, it seems Southern no longer serve the Guildford lines. Any reason why? Was this due to the Pandemic, or something to do with the franchise?
if anyone has info about this, it would be appreciated.

 

[JonathanH]

Southern lost route knowledge to Guildford as a result of services ceasing during the pandemic but they were likely to stop going there anyway. It is not the only instance of operators ceasing to run peripheral routes that they have no need to serve.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/southern-peak-services-to-guildford.225733/

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Southern lost route knowledge to Guildford

Not technically quite true

Southern don’t operate services to Guildford anymore (and yea they have lost knowledge from Leatherhead) but they do still drive trains through there…..

Mischievous post!!

 

[JonathanH]

Southern don’t operate services to Guildford anymore but they do still driver trains there…..

Yes, on the North Downs Line, but not from Epsom via Bookham to Guildford.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Yes, on the North Downs Line, but not from Epsom via Bookham to Guildford.

I did say mischievous post

 

[Basil Jet]

Yes, on the North Downs Line, but not from Epsom via Bookham to Guildford.

Why do Southern drive trains through Guildford? Diesel trains, obviously. What. Why. Where.

 

[boiledbeans2]

Interestingly, the Guildford branch still exists on the latest GTR maps. For example, see the engineering works posters at stations, which are updated weekly.

 

[JonathanH]

Why do Southern drive trains through Guildford? Diesel trains, obviously. What. Why. Where.

GWR do not have a driver depot at Redhill so have a long standing arrangement whereby Southern drivers drive some of the Turbo services between Gatwick / Redhill and Reading.

There is a small contingent of GWR conductor guards based at Redhill.

The Southern drivers who sign the North Downs line are distinct from the drivers who used to work between Leatherhead and Guildford.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Effingham Junction and London Road have therefore gone from 4tph SWR plus Southern peaks to just 3tph SWR. Horsley and Clandon weren’t served by many of the Southern services, possibly half of the three or four a day.

 

[swt_passenger]

Interestingly, the Guildford branch still exists on the latest GTR maps. For example, see the engineering works posters at stations, which are updated weekly.

It’s no longer on the National Rail London and SE map though, I think it had been removed earlier.

Effingham Junction and London Road have therefore gone from 4tph SWR plus Southern peaks to just 3tph SWR. Horsley and Clandon weren’t served by many of the Southern services, possibly half of the three or four a day.

There were only 6 passenger trains and 2 ECS in total in their last timetabled services, 3 in the morning (2 up and 1 down), and 3 in the evening. I don’t think the intermediate stations can have seen them as a key feature of the timetable.

 

[paul1609]

GWR do not have a driver depot at Redhill so have a long standing arrangement whereby Southern drivers drive some of the Turbo services between Gatwick / Redhill and Reading.

There is a small contingent of GWR conductor guards based at Redhill.

The Southern drivers who sign the North Downs line are distinct from the drivers who used to work between Leatherhead and Guildford.

Theres also contingency arrangements for the class 165/6s to refuel at Selhurst depot when the line from Gatwick to Reading is blocked for any reason so it makes sense for the Southern Drivers to retain traction knowledge.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Theres also contingency arrangements for the class 165/6s to refuel at Selhurst depot when the line from Gatwick to Reading is blocked for any reason so it makes sense for the Southern Drivers to retain traction knowledge.

Except Redhill drivers no longer sign Selhurst Depot!

 

[PGAT]

Same question can be asked for the loop line via Wimbledon. When are they coming back?

 

[JonathanH]

Same question can be asked for the loop line via Wimbledon. When are they coming back?

Are they coming back? It would seem likely that route knowledge will have been lost.

Any route that Southern aren't operating now, or from 12 September when there are some changes, would appear to be lost.

 

[tasky]

People asking why the services existed – perhaps an obvious answer, but they were a useful for some commuters from stations like Horsley/Effingham Junction for whom Victoria was a more convenient than Waterloo. There are some large civil service departments which are very close to Victoria but a rather longer walk from Waterloo, for instance.

Of course you could always change at Clapham Junction, but pre-pandemic these stations serving towns and villages in Surrey clearly had a lot of peak time, relatively long-distance annual season ticket commuters so it probably made sense to cater to them.

Similar reason to why during peak time SWT/R would run a few stopper services that would pick up passengers in Clandon/Horsley/Effingham etc via Cobham and then run them fast from Surbiton into Waterloo – this was was (and may still be?) a very important and high value market.

 

[swt_passenger]

People asking why the services existed – perhaps an obvious answer, but they were a useful for some commuters from stations like Horsley/Effingham Junction for whom Victoria was a more convenient than Waterloo. There are some large civil service departments which are very close to Victoria but a rather longer walk from Waterloo, for instance.

Of course you could always change at Clapham Junction, but pre-pandemic these stations serving towns and villages in Surrey clearly had a lot of peak time, relatively long-distance annual season ticket commuters so it probably made sense to cater to them.

Similar reason to why during peak time SWT/R would run a few stopper services that would pick up passengers in Clandon/Horsley/Effingham etc via Cobham and then run them fast from Surbiton into Waterloo – this was was (and may still be?) a very important and high value market.

Academic now, but SN Guildford was said to be due for removal well before Covid changed things.

 

[WizCastro197]

Yes, on the North Downs Line, but not from Epsom via Bookham to Guildford.

Anyway What’s the point in southern running services via Epsom and Leatherhead when I can just get a in southwestern from Epsom itself? Towards Guildford

There’s is literally no point in restarting. Maybe if they ran off peak it would but it was only peak times they would?

Same with Cross-country they ran 1 train a day from Manchester I think to Guildford but that’s since been ceased (pandemic) but you’d think it would’ve returned by now?

 

[Bald Rick]

People asking why the services existed – perhaps an obvious answer, but they were a useful for some commuters from stations like Horsley/Effingham Junction for whom Victoria was a more convenient than Waterloo.

That would be an an obvious answer, if the trains ran to Victoria. But they didn’t; they ran to London Bridge.

 

[swt_passenger]

Same with Cross-country they ran 1 train a day from Manchester I think to Guildford but that’s since been ceased (pandemic) but you’d think it would’ve returned by now?

The XC return to Guildford in passenger service is doubtful in my opinion. I think it was on borrowed time anyway since their last franchise consultation. But on the other hand the empty stock still runs though Guildford twice a day, so there’s really not much preventing it running again.

 

[WizCastro197]

The XC return to Guildford in passenger service is doubtful in my opinion. I think it was on borrowed time anyway since their last franchise consultation. But on the other hand the empty stock still runs though Guildford twice a day, so there’s really not much preventing it running again.

Hmm Interesting
You are probably right
Maybe they haven’t decided to start it up possibly because of low passenger numbers? I mean it’s only 1tpd it’s not like people will immensely suffer from its absence?


Where does this empty stock
Originate from anyway?
Guildford (and surrounding area and Portsmouth Direct Line) aren’t really my area of expertise

But I do recall a few sidings around the stations mostly full of class 455s. Maybe from there?

 

[Jimini]

There's one train each way from Eastleigh to Reading ECS moves that I can see on RTT. That said, I'm sure it wasn't that long ago that (at least) one of the evening northbound services ran from Southampton Central via. Guildford (not stopping) en route to Reading, presumably for route retention? These seem to have disappeared recently. That said, it's noticeable these days that the 1913 and 2113 from Reading come up in service from Bournemouth, whereas a month or two ago they used to start from Reading.

 

[swt_passenger]

Hmm Interesting
You are probably right
Maybe they haven’t decided to start it up possibly because of low passenger numbers? I mean it’s only 1tpd it’s not like people will immensely suffer from its absence?


Where does this empty stock
Originate from anyway?
Guildford (and surrounding area and Portsmouth Direct Line) aren’t really my area of expertise

But I do recall a few sidings around the stations mostly full of class 455s. Maybe from there?

Eastleigh TRSMD, which is the south coast overnight stabling location for XC. It runs via Fareham and Havant primarily to keep diversionary route knowledge for when the Basingstoke area is unavailable.

 

[London Trains]

I believe the 2tph London Bridge to Epsom services should be extended to Guildford all day with the Waterloo to Guildford via Epsom services diverted to Dorking instead.

Stations Guildford to Effingham Jct are served by the (much faster) via Cobham services to Waterloo/Clapham Jct/Wimbledon, and I would imagine stations Guildford to Bookham to stations Ewell West to Motspur Park is not a significant flow and would still have easy cross platform interchange at Epsom.

Dorking is an area with very little inwards travel and has lots of commuters, so having more frequent services to London is important.

In comparison, Guildford is a very large, important town with lots of leisure activites, a large university and connections to services towards Portsmouth, so connectivity to more areas such as Sutton and Croydon is more useful and important.

This could also be seen as a restoration the old SWT West Croydon to Guildford service.

 

[Jimini]

This could also be seen as a restoration the old SWT West Croydon to Guildford service.

Blimey, that takes me back. Used to run non-stop from Sutton to West Croydon back in 2002 or thereabouts? The good folk of Carshalton Beeches were less than amused as I recall!

 

[WizCastro197]

I believe the 2tph London Bridge to Epsom services should be extended to Guildford all day with the Waterloo to Guildford via Epsom services diverted to Dorking instead.

Stations Guildford to Effingham Jct are served by the (much faster) via Cobham services to Waterloo/Clapham Jct/Wimbledon, and I would imagine stations Guildford to Bookham to stations Ewell West to Motspur Park is not a significant flow and would still have easy cross platform interchange at Epsom.

Dorking is an area with very little inwards travel and has lots of commuters, so having more frequent services to London is important.

In comparison, Guildford is a very large, important town with lots of leisure activites, a large university and connections to services towards Portsmouth, so connectivity to more areas such as Sutton and Croydon is more useful and important.

This could also be seen as a restoration the old SWT West Croydon to Guildford service.

I understand your point but there really is no actual point to reinstate the service?
Waterloo is relatively close to London Bridge 2 stops on the tube and faster to to go to Waterloo.

Dorking has 3 different stations to serve it

I believe the 2tph London Bridge to Epsom services should be extended to Guildford all day with the Waterloo to Guildford via Epsom services diverted to Dorking instead.

Stations Guildford to Effingham Jct are served by the (much faster) via Cobham services to Waterloo/Clapham Jct/Wimbledon, and I would imagine stations Guildford to Bookham to stations Ewell West to Motspur Park is not a significant flow and would still have easy cross platform interchange at Epsom.

Dorking is an area with very little inwards travel and has lots of commuters, so having more frequent services to London is important.

In comparison, Guildford is a very large, important town with lots of leisure activites, a large university and connections to services towards Portsmouth, so connectivity to more areas such as Sutton and Croydon is more useful

This could also be seen as a restoration the old SWT West Croydon to Guildford service.

I believe the 2tph London Bridge to Epsom services should be extended to Guildford all day with the Waterloo to Guildford via Epsom services diverted to Dorking instead.

Stations Guildford to Effingham Jct are served by the (much faster) via Cobham services to Waterloo/Clapham Jct/Wimbledon, and I would imagine stations Guildford to Bookham to stations Ewell West to Motspur Park is not a significant flow and would still have easy cross platform interchange at Epsom.

Dorking is an area with very little inwards travel and has lots of commuters, so having more frequent services to London is important.

In comparison, Guildford is a very large, important town with lots of leisure activites, a large university and connections to services towards Portsmouth, so connectivity to more areas such as Sutton and Croydon is more useful and important.

This could also be seen as a restoration the old SWT West Croydon to Guildford service.

If passengers from Guildford want to go to Croydon they can do so by taking a train to Clapham Then changing or onto a train to redhill then changing there
Both take around 50 minutes
Dorking and Guildford both have great connections already

But why would anyone want to go to Croydon nothing is really there

 

[Jimini]

But why would anyone want to go to Croydon nothing is really there

Yeah the onward connections from Croydon are proper bobbins.. why would they indeed.

 

[tasky]

That would be an an obvious answer, if the trains ran to Victoria. But they didn’t; they ran to London Bridge.

Actually the service was 1tph to London Bridge and 1tph to London Victoria at peak time. It's possible that changed prior to the pandemic as it's been a few years since I lived there

 

[WizCastro197]

Yeah the onward connections from Croydon are proper bobbins.. why would they indeed.

That’s not my point?
Why would you want to go from Croydon when all the connections are already at Clapham?

I was talking about outside the railway aswell which I think the person I was replying to also has in mind?


I don’t get it with some people why is there such a need to be so rude. If someone has made a mistake or you disagree. Raise it a polite way? Some manners?

 

[London Trains]

I understand your point but there really is no actual point to reinstate the service?
Waterloo is relatively close to London Bridge 2 stops on the tube and faster to to go to Waterloo.

Dorking has 3 different stations to serve it


If passengers from Guildford want to go to Croydon they can do so by taking a train to Clapham Then changing or onto a train to redhill then changing there
Both take around 50 minutes
Dorking and Guildford both have great connections already

But why would anyone want to go to Croydon nothing is really there

My extension has nothing to do with end to end usage, it is purely for the different connections provided along the route.

In a similar way, I would be surprised if anyone between Guildford and Effingham Jct travelling to Waterloo would choose to use the Waterloo to Guildford via Epsom service all the way since the services via Cobham are much faster.

The connections provided by that service that are not provided by any other service are: Guildford / London Rd / Clandon / Horsley / Effingham Jct / Bookham to Ewell West / Stoneleigh / Worcester Park / Motspur Park / Raynes Park (and Bookham to every station on the line)

New connections between Guildford and Sutton/Croydon would likely be much more used than those links, and every one of those lost links is easily provided with a cross platform change at Epsom.

Fair point about Croydon, but I would take a good guess at the link being used more for travelling to/from Guildford, for reasons stated in my last post.

The issue with changing at Clapham Jct is that very few fast trains from Guildford actually stop at Clapham Jct, especially in the peaks.

Not sure what connections to Dorking has to do with it, I just said that a more frequent service from Dorking to Waterloo would be very useful.

 

[Bald Rick]

Actually the service was 1tph to London Bridge and 1tph to London Victoria at peak time. It's possible that changed prior to the pandemic as it's been a few years since I lived there

I stand corrected. I used to live there and only ever remember London Bridge trains.