Southern Timetable Change September 2022

[Kite159]

Don't really see the point in the Brighton-Hove Shuttles now the Vic to Littlehampton service stops at Preston Park tbh.

What is the connection generally like at Preston Park?

 

[LA50041]

From September 4x 3 car 377 will be based at Lovers Walk and work:

5H06 0510 Lovers Walk T&R.S.M.D to Littlehampton
1H07 0616 Littlehampton to London Victoria
1F10 0824 London Victoria to Eastbourne
5G90 1001 Eastbourne to Lovers Walk T&R.S.M.D

They also come out in the evening I believe.

They do indeed, 5G46 to form 2G46/2G50 vice 387's

 

[Horizon22]

Penge West and Anerley will not be served by Southern, except for one train to E Croydon circa 0045, a Caterham around 0500 and one train to London Bridge around 0530.

Whilst inconvenient, it is at least only a same platform change for London Bridge. Going south towards E. Croydon though much more inconvenient - probably a walk or a tram around from W. Croydon.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Whilst inconvenient, it is at least only a same platform change for London Bridge. Going south towards E. Croydon though much more inconvenient - probably a walk or a tram around from W. Croydon.

Overground goes into platform 5 at Norwood and Thameslink and the 1Pxx workings will likely be on platform 4. Across platform interchange.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

which will help with passenger loadings on the Southampton and Portsmouth services.

Unfortunately, the primary aid for these services would be reinstatement of the West Worthing shuttle, and this doesn't look like it's going to happen.

 

[Bikeman78]

Dare I ask if the Brighton - Portsmouth service will no longer use the 313 bangers during weekdays? Could have sworn that pre covid they were all 377s during the week?

The weekday Brighton to Portsmouth trains were 313s for years before Covid.

 

[Horizon22]

Overground goes into platform 5 at Norwood and Thameslink and the 1Pxx workings will likely be on platform 4. Across platform interchange.

But only if there's not a 15+ minute wait.

 

[bramling]

For the GN outers, this is what I've spotted so far for September. Interestingly at least some of the rationale seems to be to reduce unit miles, in particular of the 700 fleet (especially 700/1). There's also been quite a bit of ECS mileage removed for both the 700 and 387 fleets.

Fewer 700s now see Hornsey each night, which could turn out to have a negative impact on reliability. One 700/1 now stables at Peterborough Nene CS in consequence of all this. It may be the case that the extra stabling space at Cambridge and the removal of all the 365s stabling at Peterborough has allowed more 700/1s to stable at the country end.

PETERBOROUGH ROUTE

1P02 0518 King's Cross - Peterborough, changes from 700/1 to 2x387
1P04 0548 King's Cross - Peterborough, changes from 700/1 to 1x387
1P00 0136 King's Cross - Peterborough, changes from 700/1 to 2x387

1P79 0324 Peterborough - King's Cross, changes from 700/1 to 2x387
1P71 2224 Peterborough - King's Cross, changes from 700/1 to 1x387
1P75 2320 Peterborough - King's Cross, changes from 700/1 to 2x387

CAMBRIDGE ROUTE

1C02 0533 King's Cross - Cambridge, changes from 700/1 to 700/0
2C12 0922 King's Cross - Cambridge, now terminates at Letchworth
2C20 1122 King's Cross - Cambridge, now terminates at Letchworth
2C24 1222 King's Cross - Cambridge, now terminates at Letchworth
2C28 1322 King's Cross - Cambridge, now terminates at Letchworth
2C52 1922 King's Cross - Cambridge, now terminates at Letchworth
2C56 2022 King's Cross - Cambridge, no longer runs
1T64 2109 King's Cross - Ely, changes from 2x387 to 700/0
2C60 2122 King's Cross - Cambridge, no longer runs
2C64 2222 King's Cross - Cambridge, no longer runs
2C66 2252 King's Cross - Royston, extended to Cambridge
2C68 2324 King's Cross - Cambridge, no longer runs
2R72 0024 King's Cross - Royston, no longer runs

2C25 1027 Cambridge - King's Cross, now starts from Letchworth
2C29 1127 Cambridge - King's Cross, now starts from Letchworth
2C37 1327 Cambridge - King's Cross, now starts from Letchworth
2C41 1427 Cambridge - King's Cross, now starts from Letchworth
2C67 2057 Cambridge - King's Cross, no longer runs
2C71 2157 Cambridge - King's Cross, no longer runs
1T71 2246 Ely - King's Cross, changes from 2x387 to 700/0
1C93 2253 Cambridge - King's Cross, changes from 700/1 to 700/0
2C75 2257 Cambridge - King's Cross, no longer runs
1C97 2354 Cambridge - King's Cross, changes from 700/1 to 2x387

THAMESLINK

9J59 1852 Peterborough - Horsham, now terminates at Gatwick Airport
9J34 2155 Horsham - Peterborough, now starts from Three Bridges

9S56 1912 Brighton - Cambridge, calls additionally at Welwyn Garden City, Welwyn North and Knebworth
9S60 2012 Brighton - Cambridge, calls additionally at Welwyn Garden City, Welwyn North and Knebworth
9S64 2112 Brighton - Cambridge, calls additionally at Welwyn Garden City, Welwyn North and Knebworth
9S68 2212 Brighton - Cambridge, calls additionally at Welwyn Garden City, Welwyn North and Knebworth

INNERS

Certain morning and evening peak Welwyn Garden City - Moorgate services omit Hornsey and Harringay, with all Welwyn Garden City - Sevenoaks services running on the US1 in consequence (I believe this has been happening since May anyway).

 

[DorkingMain]

Overground goes into platform 5 at Norwood and Thameslink and the 1Pxx workings will likely be on platform 4. Across platform interchange.

Looking at the timetable, the gap to change at Norwood Junction is about 20 mins.

 

[JonathanH]

Looking at the timetable, the gap to change at Norwood Junction is about 20 mins.

Isn't it 5 minutes? A 20 minute connection involving a service that runs every 15 minutes doesn't seem right.

9J59 1852 Peterborough - Horsham, now terminates at Gatwick Airport
9J34 2155 Horsham - Peterborough, now starts from Three Bridges

This one is interesting. It looks like a random opportunity to swap a unit between the Bedford and Peterborough routes, rather than simply a service cut, while at the same time putting a hour gap in the service at Ifield and Littlehaven.

 

[Southern Dvr]

It’s not quite a 15 min interval, and if you get the ‘wrong’ train into Norwood (xx:33 arrival) there is a 20 min wait to get to E Croydon. However if you plan you’ll just get the xx:48 arrival and have 5 mins.

 

[bramling]

Isn't it 5 minutes? A 20 minute connection involving a service that runs every 15 minutes doesn't seem right.


This one is interesting. It looks like a random opportunity to swap a unit between the Bedford and Peterborough routes, rather than simply a service cut, while at the same time putting a hour gap in the service at Ifield and Littlehaven.

Yes I think it’s a swap. The original May 18 TT had quite a bit of swapping on weekday mornings, with the service becoming Horsham-Bedford and Gatwick-Peterborough for a short while.

With Horsham-Peterborough now even more captive than it was, and not even much opportunity for crossover at Hornsey with fewer units going there overnight, clearly they’ve felt another changeover opportunity was needed. Why they couldn’t do it in the mornings as per May 18 I can’t really see. As you say, hardly ideal putting an hour gap in the evening down service.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

What is the connection generally like at Preston Park?

Not very good

2 tph from Brighton on a TL train, if they run. Then you have to change platforms via narrow, congested stairway. I'm not sure if there are lifts at Preston Park. Then about a 20min wait for the Littlehampton train going in t'other direction.

Brighton-Hove is around 4tph but if you catch the shuttle, you will have to change platforms via the subway

 

[Bikeman78]

THAMESLINK

9J59 1852 Peterborough - Horsham, now terminates at Gatwick Airport
9J34 2155 Horsham - Peterborough, now starts from Three Bridges

As already mentioned, this leaves a 60 minute gap in down trains for Ifield and Littlehaven. You have to go back at least 30 years to find such a poor service. In the 1990s and 2000s the evening Bognor Regis trains stopped. The obvious solution is to put stops in 1J62.

 

[bramling]

As already mentioned, this leaves a 60 minute gap in down trains for Ifield and Littlehaven. You have to go back at least 30 years to find such a poor service. In the 1990s and 2000s the evening Bognor Regis trains stopped. The obvious solution is to put stops in 1J62.

Interestingly, the GN changes seem to have attracted attention locally here in Hertfordshire. Think people are starting to realise that if they don’t start making noises to the politicians, this is going to continue.

(Unfortunately it doesn’t help that locally here there remain a lot of “it’s too dangerous to travel by train to the office, but not too dangerous to have a day out by train on Saturday” types).

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Interestingly, the GN changes seem to have attracted attention locally here in Hertfordshire. Think people are starting to realise that if they don’t start making noises to the politicians, this is going to continue.

(Unfortunately it doesn’t help that locally here there remain a lot of “it’s too dangerous to travel by train to the office, but not too dangerous to have a day out by train on Saturday” types).

The cutter in chief (for a few more weeks) constituency is in Hertfordshire so hopeful he's been in receipt of few of those complaints

 

[bramling]

The cutter in chief (for a few more weeks) constituency is in Hertfordshire so hopeful he's been in receipt of few of those complaints

Quite a safe seat, unfortunately.

 

[geoffk]

Why is this happening in September, which is not a normal change date? Staff shortages?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Why is this happening in September, which is not a normal change date? Staff shortages?

To reduce costs as part of the Southern new NRC which wasn’t complete in time to meet the May timetable change date.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Quite a safe seat, unfortunately.

My seat is very Tory safe but to be fair to him he has supported his constituents over train services and getting us Oyster.

 

[miklcct]

What is the connection generally like at Preston Park?

Preston Park is useless for journeys between Brighton and the west - it isn't on the line of route.

 

[gray1404]

What is the state of play from September (and currently) with the former Milton Keynes Central to Clapham Junction service? Is it turning back at Watford Junction?

 

[JonathanH]

What is the state of play from September (and currently) with the former Milton Keynes Central to Clapham Junction service? Is it turning back at Watford Junction?

Yes. No further north than Watford Junction (except one morning and evening service to Hemel Hempstead). Informed sources have indicated it will never go back to Milton Keynes.

 

[BrianB]

All tables now live on GTR associated websites

 

[Southern Dvr]

Yes. No further north than Watford Junction (except one morning and evening service to Hemel Hempstead). Informed sources have indicated it will never go back to Milton Keynes.

Even the hemel is hanging on by a thread. There had been hope of a couple of Tring extensions but we’ve been told DFT refused to entertain the idea.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Even the hemel is hanging on by a thread. There had been hope of a couple of Tring extensions but we’ve been told DFT refused to entertain the idea.

I think Hemel is only there so that when the Slow Lines at Watford Junction are blocked, Southern drivers will still have route knowledge to run up to Bourne End Junction and shunt there.

When Watford North Junction gets finally recomissioned, the need for shunts at Bourne End Junction will cease.

 

[Kite159]

Preston Park is useless for journeys between Brighton and the west - it isn't on the line of route.

The idea is Brighton to Preston Park changing onto the London - Littlehampton service, potentially gives another option to reach stations on the West Coastway in addition to the Portsmouth/Southampton trains. Or vice versa

When the Brighton - Hove shuttle didn't run as that used to connect into the Littlehampton trains at Hove.

 

[Southern Dvr]

I think Hemel is only there so that when the Slow Lines at Watford Junction are blocked, Southern drivers will still have route knowledge to run up to Bourne End Junction and shunt there.

When Watford North Junction gets finally recomissioned, the need for shunts at Bourne End Junction will cease.

Bourne End is not in their route knowledge. Merely the platform spin at Hemel. Hopefully when Watford north is recommissioned they’ll keep the Hemel at least.

 

[bicbasher]

From what I've read locally, it has been organised that there will be same platform interchange for London Overground passengers at Norwood Junction for the majority of the 2tph Caterham/Tattenham Corner services. For example, the 1048 LO to West Croydon will arrive at Platform 5 and then at 1052 a Caterham will then arrive on Platform 5.

Northbound services from Caterham to London Bridge will depart from Platform 1 (the slow line platform) rather than Platform 3 where London Bridge fasts usually arrive followed by a Highbury & Islington service from West Croydon.

This ensures New Cross Gate to Anerley passengers will have same platform interchange for 2tph to make up for some of the inconvenience.

London Bridge to Victoria services will be made up of 8 or 10 coaches instead of the current 5 coach services on the East Croydon stoppers.

 

[Failed Unit]

Whilst the Letchworth change is something I always thought would happen (and to be fair does actually make some sense - there really doesn’t need to be 4tph of local services between Hitchin and Cambridge), the change to the 9Sxx services seems to be another thing which will have the practical effect of making the service more unattractive. It’s almost as though they *want* to drive people away.

And just to please a few people, it appears 700/0s make a return to Ely, albeit just one return trip in the evening.

Also looks like a few formation / stock changes to early morning and late evening GN services. Some of the 700/1s that run to/from King’s Cross look to be changing, in some cases down to 700/0, 2x387 or 1x387.

Depends on how you look at things in terms of unattractive.

For Potters Bar and Hatfield the will not be happy.

For WGC, Welwyn North and Knebworth the direct links from the core will definitely be welcome. i know the change at Finsbury Park isn’t a problem but direct is better. The only thing that will be catching people out until the get used to it is do I head for KX or StPancras