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Southern Timetable Change September 2022

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Pumbaa

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Bourne End is not in their route knowledge. Merely the platform spin at Hemel. Hopefully when Watford north is recommissioned they’ll keep the Hemel at least.
There is no point in keeping it past Hemel, as next passing point (Tring) would require another circuit, thus not saving the required units.

You were lucky to keep Hemel, it took a lot to persuade DfT to allow you to keep it. The only way we could persuade them was because it was “free” and the performance risk twice a day was worth the benefit it brought if for whatever reason Watford Bay was blocked.
 
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Southern Dvr

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The hope was that Tring on an extra circuit (an extra half hour in peaks) would only need 2 units and with the potential (now lack of) 387 cascade and 377/5 cascade we might have enough stock. The idea being a selhurst depot-selhurst-Tring-selhurst-selhurst depot. Would have kept the knowledge in case an extension was ever feasible longer term.

What’s killing the WLL right now is the 4 cars, absolutely rammed. They really needed 5 cars or 387s. The 387s would be better due to the seat configuration having less 4 seater tables.
 

JonathanH

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Would have kept the knowledge in case an extension was ever feasible longer term.
Given the frequent service offered by LNR and ability to connect at Watford Junction, what does Tring really offer as a destination for Southern services over just going to Watford Junction other than a different reversing facility?
 

Southern Dvr

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Well, with only Hemel we are unable to use the fast lines (in disruption) north of Watford as the turnaround is at Bourne End which is north of Hemel. So, one advantage is resilience when there’s a problem. Another observation has been that the both the Hemel services have been very busy at Hemel which implies there is a passenger (remember them?!) demand for something more.
 

SouthEastBuses

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There are also service reductions on TLGN, 1tph Kings Cross-Cambridge to be curtailed at Letchworth off peak Mon-Sat from September (meaning back to 1tph off peak for Foxton/Meldreth/Shepreth). Sunday service pattern remains unchanged, but first trains on Sunday on this route will be significantly later - Knebworth will have its first train at 08:41 (compared with the current 06:44).

Also of note that in the evenings, 9Sxx trains will stop (northbound only) at Welwyn Garden City, Welwyn North and Knebworth between 21:00 and midnight, presumably due to a shortage of train crew to run the full KGX-Letchworth/Cambridge service through to the end of service.

Does this include the Peterborough - Horsham trains, or just the Brighton & London - Cambridge trains?

Whilst the Letchworth change is something I always thought would happen (and to be fair does actually make some sense - there really doesn’t need to be 4tph of local services between Hitchin and Cambridge), the change to the 9Sxx services seems to be another thing which will have the practical effect of making the service more unattractive. It’s almost as though they *want* to drive people away.

And just to please a few people, it appears 700/0s make a return to Ely, albeit just one return trip in the evening.

Also looks like a few formation / stock changes to early morning and late evening GN services. Some of the 700/1s that run to/from King’s Cross look to be changing, in some cases down to 700/0, 2x387 or 1x387.

So Thameslink is returning to Ely then? Will it be an extension to the current London-Cambridge service, or Brighton-Cambridge via London?
 

JonathanH

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Does this include the Peterborough - Horsham trains, or just the Brighton & London - Cambridge trains?
The services from 12 September are as follows:

All go through to Peterborough / Cambridge, but some of the Cambridge services get extra stops north of London.

So Thameslink is returning to Ely then? Will it be an extension to the current London-Cambridge service, or Brighton-Cambridge via London?
No
 

bramling

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Does this include the Peterborough - Horsham trains, or just the Brighton & London - Cambridge trains?



So Thameslink is returning to Ely then? Will it be an extension to the current London-Cambridge service, or Brighton-Cambridge via London?

It’s only one round trip, simply a case of a 700/0 working a GN service as a matter of operational convenience. In the same way that from September 387s will be working some early morning and late evening Thameslink branded services.

I suspect the main rationale for this is reduction in unit miles, as they seem to have picked low-hanging-fruit changes which will achieve that relatively easily.
 

DJS76

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It’s been flagged across several threads that there will be a major change to Southern Metro Services from Sunday Sept 4th which is appearing in RealTimeTrains.
It is just 6 weeks away, however as of yet Southern have not announced it to Passengers or Stakeholders. Will it be happening or will it be delayed?

Changes include: -
London Bridge to Caterham via Tulse Hill only runs to East Croydon
London Bridge to East Croydon via Sydenham withdrawn
London Bridge to Beckenham Jnct returns to half hourly
London Bridge to London Victoria reinstated
London Victoria to Horsham/Dorking semi-fast withdrawn
London Victoria to Epsom stopping extended to Horsham/Dorking

There may be more and I recall there are changes along the coast too
I thought they might make use of the spare paths created by the withdrawal of the semi-fast service via Epsom to create better spacing between the Southern and Thameslink services on the Mitcham Junction stretch. At present the Thameslink trains are 4 minutes behind the Southern trains in both directions throughout the day. So for example, passengers at Carshalton will now have 2 London bound trains in the space of 4 minutes and then nothing for 26 minutes, just seems a bit odd to me but perhaps there is a reason.
 

Southern Dvr

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I thought they might make use of the spare paths created by the withdrawal of the semi-fast service via Epsom to create better spacing between the Southern and Thameslink services on the Mitcham Junction stretch. At present the Thameslink trains are 4 minutes behind the Southern trains in both directions throughout the day. So for example, passengers at Carshalton will now have 2 London bound trains in the space of 4 minutes and then nothing for 26 minutes, just seems a bit odd to me but perhaps there is a reason.
The reason is that the trains aren’t run for the convenience of the travelling plan any more!!
 

DJS76

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The reason is that the trains aren’t run for the convenience of the travelling plan any more!!
That appears to be the sad truth. Also noticed that the peak time extras on this line are only to/from Epsom and these run in the slots that are currently the trains to Dorking & Horsham. I would hope that all non peak services will now be at least 8 coaches but they'll probably squeeze everyone onto a 5 coach.
 

Basil Jet

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I thought they might make use of the spare paths created by the withdrawal of the semi-fast service via Epsom to create better spacing between the Southern and Thameslink services on the Mitcham Junction stretch. At present the Thameslink trains are 4 minutes behind the Southern trains in both directions throughout the day. So for example, passengers at Carshalton will now have 2 London bound trains in the space of 4 minutes and then nothing for 26 minutes, just seems a bit odd to me but perhaps there is a reason.
They aren't London bound, half are Victoria bound and half are Blackfriars bound, and only a small few people doing local journeys would be helped by evening the gaps out.
 

paul1609

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The idea is Brighton to Preston Park changing onto the London - Littlehampton service, potentially gives another option to reach stations on the West Coastway in addition to the Portsmouth/Southampton trains. Or vice versa

When the Brighton - Hove shuttle didn't run as that used to connect into the Littlehampton trains at Hove.
In reality the only West Coastway station that doesn't have a direct service to Brighton itself off peak is Littlehampton which has good connections off the Brighton to Southampton service at Ford.
Quite a lot of the shuttles business actually came off the southbound Littlehampton services to Brighton but since the services largely no longer split at Haywards Heath and call all stations to Hove this traffic no longer exists. The Brighton to West Worthing service needs to be reinstated before the Hove Shuttles because of overcrowding on the Portsmouth and Southampton services.
 

Kite159

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In reality the only West Coastway station that doesn't have a direct service to Brighton itself off peak is Littlehampton which has good connections off the Brighton to Southampton service at Ford.
Quite a lot of the shuttles business actually came off the southbound Littlehampton services to Brighton but since the services largely no longer split at Haywards Heath and call all stations to Hove this traffic no longer exists. The Brighton to West Worthing service needs to be reinstated before the Hove Shuttles because of overcrowding on the Portsmouth and Southampton services.
Agreed about the West Worthing shuttles would be good to bring back to limit the overcrowding on the Hampshire services. How many passengers have given up using the train due to the overcrowding and now uses the buses?
 

PGAT

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Looking at RTT, the Watford- Clapham services seem to have extended back to East Croydon for most of the day. But with the increased traffic, will they remain 4 coaches or will they be bumped up to 5 or 8?
 

Class 466

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Looking at RTT, the Watford- Clapham services seem to have extended back to East Croydon for most of the day. But with the increased traffic, will they remain 4 coaches or will they be bumped up to 5 or 8?
Believe they’ll remain as 4.
 

PGAT

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On a lighter note, who are the winners from this timetable?

- Wandsworth Common, Balham, Streatham Hill, West Norwood, Gipsy Hill, Crystal Palace

Mostly for the same reason. They now have an extra 2 tph between London Bridge and Victoria. Streatham Hill, West Norwood, Gipsy Hill and Crystal Palace benefit especially from the 2tph BKJ services.

- Hackbridge, Mitcham Junction, Mitcham Eastfields

Keep a similar service, except off peak services run to Dorking and Horsham instead of Epsom.

- Norwood Junction

Now has 6tph fast to London Bridge, as well as services to Purley, Caterham and Tattenham Corner.

- Norbury, Thornton Heath

Now have 3tph in the morning peak to East Croydon, when currently they have none.
 

nw1

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It’s been flagged across several threads that there will be a major change to Southern Metro Services from Sunday Sept 4th which is appearing in RealTimeTrains.
It is just 6 weeks away, however as of yet Southern have not announced it to Passengers or Stakeholders. Will it be happening or will it be delayed?

Changes include: -
London Victoria to Horsham/Dorking semi-fast withdrawn

So Dorking gets nothing but (almost) all stations services to London, whichever terminal you're aiming at. Unusual for a commuter-belt town of that sort of size and distance from London to not have any semi-fast services to London at all.

The equivalent on other approaches to London with a similar kind of service, I guess, would be the Reading-Waterloo calling at St Margarets, North Sheen, Barnes, etc. Or the East Grinstead serving Streatham Common, Norbury, Thornton Heath etc.
 

PGAT

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Or the East Grinstead serving Streatham Common, Norbury, Thornton Heath etc.
I do think that the EGR services should stop at Selhurst in at least the peak. Since they have to switch to the slow lines at Selhurst the maximum speed is 30 mph on a good day so stopping would only add a minute or 2 onto journey times while halving commutes to CLJ or VIC from SRS.
 

TRXsouth

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- Hackbridge, Mitcham Junction, Mitcham Eastfields
Keep a similar service, except off peak services run to Dorking and Horsham instead of Epsom.

How will these stations be winners? If the Lon Vic - Dorking/Horsham semi-fasts are going, their (unhappy!) longer distance passengers will have to be squeezed into the remaining all stations services, so passengers at those three stations will find the trains becoming much more crowded. Unless it is intended that the 377 stock will always be 8 or 10 cars?
 

theking

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Why couldn't they have had the increased Norwood services stop at New Cross Gate instead.
 

Southern Dvr

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I do think that the EGR services should stop at Selhurst in at least the peak. Since they have to switch to the slow lines at Selhurst the maximum speed is 30 mph on a good day so stopping would only add a minute or 2 onto journey times while halving commutes to CLJ or VIC from SRS.
Too tightly pathed, it may not be the EGR that loses much time stopping at selhurst but the trains behind on the fast lines would lose time.
 

PGAT

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Why couldn't they have had the increased Norwood services stop at New Cross Gate instead.
Not entirely sure if this is true but with the timetable the way it is, having fast services stop so close to a terminus would have devastating knock on effects on services behind it.
 

Bikeman78

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- Hackbridge, Mitcham Junction, Mitcham Eastfields
Keep a similar service, except off peak services run to Dorking and Horsham instead of Epsom.

How will these stations be winners? If the Lon Vic - Dorking/Horsham semi-fasts are going, their (unhappy!) longer distance passengers will have to be squeezed into the remaining all stations services, so passengers at those three stations will find the trains becoming much more crowded. Unless it is intended that the 377 stock will always be 8 or 10 cars?
I wouldn't count on it. There are five cars out on their own at the moment. History seems to be repeating itself. The recession in the 1990s binned off the Selhurst EPBs. Soon after there were single 4VEPs running peak time metro services, e.g. the 08:09 East Croydon to London Bridge via Streatham. There were people standing in the first class compartments!
 

Southern Dvr

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History is repeating itself all over on the railway. If you look at the 1980s & 1990s you had power signal boxes replacing smaller boxes. Stations were unmanned. Smaller train crew depots were closed. Rolling stock cuts were made and timetables slashed. You can certainly see parallels today.
 

nw1

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I do think that the EGR services should stop at Selhurst in at least the peak. Since they have to switch to the slow lines at Selhurst the maximum speed is 30 mph on a good day so stopping would only add a minute or 2 onto journey times while halving commutes to CLJ or VIC from SRS.

That's a fair point, but Selhurst is just one stop. The Dorking services are apparently gaining the majority of stops within Greater London (except Battersea Park and Wandsworth Common?), so are becoming quite seriously slow!

History is repeating itself all over on the railway. If you look at the 1980s & 1990s you had power signal boxes replacing smaller boxes. Stations were unmanned. Smaller train crew depots were closed. Rolling stock cuts were made and timetables slashed. You can certainly see parallels today.

Yes, a reaction to financial hard times I guess - though interestingly we didn't see the same kind of cuts during the late-00s credit crunch or Cameron/Osborne austerity.

I do remember 1985 and 1991-93 in particular being very much "cuts" timetables (for instance, 1985 had many Central Division cuts; 1991 saw the Portsmouth Direct peak being slashed from 6tph to 4tph; and 1993 saw just two trains off-peak south of Guildford). That said, we also had some much happier times in the 80s and 90s, the periods around 1987-90 and 1995-99 in particular being periods of strong timetable improvements.

I wouldn't count on it. There are five cars out on their own at the moment. History seems to be repeating itself. The recession in the 1990s binned off the Selhurst EPBs. Soon after there were single 4VEPs running peak time metro services, e.g. the 08:09 East Croydon to London Bridge via Streatham. There were people standing in the first class compartments!
Presumably these were declassified?

Interesting, I lost touch with the Central Division in the very late 80s and early 90s, so didn't realise that the EPBs went earlier than on the South Eastern. I think this was when the 456s came in, but presumably there weren't enough to make up the shortfall.

I also remember a single VEP on a peak hour London Bridge to Reigate service in 1986 and 1987 (not suburban admittedly, but peak) leaving LBG perhaps around 1810. I recall using this to travel back to Guildford from East Croydon on a couple of occasions, though don't remember it being overcrowded. Perhaps it closely followed another service which also made the Purley/Coulsdon S/Merstham stops?
 
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PGAT

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so are becoming quite seriously slow!

Yes they’re slow, but it’s not as bad as you think. Peak Dorking/Horsham services already stop at these stations and there are strict speed restrictions at Mitcham Junction, the level crossing at Mitcham Eastfields and just before Streatham North Junction.
 

LA50041

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- Hackbridge, Mitcham Junction, Mitcham Eastfields
Keep a similar service, except off peak services run to Dorking and Horsham instead of Epsom.

How will these stations be winners? If the Lon Vic - Dorking/Horsham semi-fasts are going, their (unhappy!) longer distance passengers will have to be squeezed into the remaining all stations services, so passengers at those three stations will find the trains becoming much more crowded. Unless it is intended that the 377 stock will always be 8 or 10 cars?
The VIC-Dorking/Horshams from September are a mixture of 5/8/10 cars
 

WizCastro197

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I do think that the EGR services should stop at Selhurst in at least the peak. Since they have to switch to the slow lines at Selhurst the maximum speed is 30 mph on a good day so stopping would only add a minute or 2 onto journey times while halving commutes to CLJ or VIC from SRS.
Interesting Idea though. Yes Commutes to Victoria and Clapham are at least 25-30 from selhurst on a stopping service. Reigate Services also switch onto slow lines then so maybe that would be worth adding too as you said only 1 or 2 minutes. I've seen before during that time where we had 40 degrees, All eastbourne trains stopped at Selhurst as well.

From September 4x 3 car 377 will be based at Lovers Walk and work:

5H06 0510 Lovers Walk T&R.S.M.D to Littlehampton
1H07 0616 Littlehampton to London Victoria
1F10 0824 London Victoria to Eastbourne
5G90 1001 Eastbourne to Lovers Walk T&R.S.M.D

They also come out in the evening I believe.
Arent't the 377/3 only suited to shorter distance services? eg. South London Routes and Redhill-Tonbridge? Why place them on a 2 hour journey?


Will the Reigate and Redhill area see any significant changes? We have a good Thameslink service but an okay southern one. Will the Sunday Bognor Regis trains be eliminated in the change as well?
 
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Agent_Squash

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Arent't the 377/3 only suited to shorter distance services? eg. South London Routes and Redhill-Tonbridge? Why place them on a 2 hour journey?

Looks like they're working as a 12 coach 4x3 configuration. But they're the same as the /1/2/4s, just with one less carriage.
 
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